Rayman 3

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Hunchman801
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Re: Rayman 3

Post by Hunchman801 »

Thanks for sharing, Droolie, this is really cool! The Bog of Murk cutscene is by far the most interesting: what's with the Ugly turning into a butterfly as he receives one of Razoff's teardrops? Now I wonder if they were meant to be given more importance in either in mansion level or the plot overall. Funny how Begoniax turns into a pinkish version of herself that Razoff appears to falls in love with, too. The scene isn't very clear (and maybe that's why it was changed), but it appears as though she used some kind of love potion on him?

Now regarding the textures, there's quite a lot of stuff in there too! I don't suppose the corresponding 3D models are available, at least for characters? Image being able to see what the Zaqoas (I guess they're the same as the Zaqs) would have looked like in detail.
Elite Piranha wrote: Thu Mar 18, 2021 5:09 pm I found a polish Rayman 3 demo, but for some reason it says "Rayman 2: The Great Escape", I guess it was a mistake?
Do you mean you have the CD?
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Re: Rayman 3

Post by PluMGMK »

Hunchman801 wrote: Sun Mar 21, 2021 8:40 pm Thanks for sharing, Droolie, this is really cool! The Bog of Murk cutscene is by far the most interesting: what's with the Ugly turning into a butterfly as he receives one of Razoff's teardrops? Now I wonder if they were meant to be given more importance in either in mansion level or the plot overall. Funny how Begoniax turns into a pinkish version of herself that Razoff appears to falls in love with, too. The scene isn't very clear (and maybe that's why it was changed), but it appears as though she used some kind of love potion on him?
As I say, I think Razoff's tears (or I guess those of his species in general) turn out to be the missing ingredient from Bégoniax's long-sought-after beauty potion. Hence the "Ugly" turning into a "beautiful butterfly". Then Bégoniax herself jumps in the mirror and touches his teardrops, which turn her into (what I guess is supposed to be) a more beautiful version of herself. I think it seems long enough to have had dialogue which would have explained all this. I'd say they probably changed it when they got fed up trying to come up with a way to make Bégoniax beautiful! :noel: Plus it's a bit twee – a sadomasochistic assault on an ambiguously-gay hunter when he's at his lowest point is much more in keeping with the "adult" humour of the game. :hap:
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Re: Rayman 3

Post by Elite Piranha »

Hunchman801 wrote: Sun Mar 21, 2021 8:40 pm
Elite Piranha wrote: Thu Mar 18, 2021 5:09 pm I found a polish Rayman 3 demo, but for some reason it says "Rayman 2: The Great Escape", I guess it was a mistake?
Do you mean you have the CD?
No, I just found it somewhere. It turns out I was wrong, it seems that the CD contains the full version ("pelna wersja") of Rayman 2, but for some reason the magazine shows Murfy's R3 design and even Tily:

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Also, where can I watch the Razoff-Bégoniax cutscene?
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Re: Rayman 3

Post by Droolie »

PluMGMK wrote: Sun Mar 21, 2021 9:19 pmAs I say, I think Razoff's tears (or I guess those of his species in general) turn out to be the missing ingredient from Bégoniax's long-sought-after beauty potion. Hence the "Ugly" turning into a "beautiful butterfly". Then Bégoniax herself jumps in the mirror and touches his teardrops, which turn her into (what I guess is supposed to be) a more beautiful version of herself.
Exactly. The early plot was this: Rayman and Globox are flying over the Bog of Murk on the Wooglah, but it gets wounded and takes a crash landing. Searching for help to heal the wound, Rayman finds Bégoniax, who offers him to help if he finds the beauty potion she is looking for on the other side of the marsh:
voices_begoniax.zip
(695.98 KiB) Downloaded 20 times

Rayman goes through the mirror and finds Ssssam, then crosses the marsh and enters Razoff's mansion. He guards the beauty elixir, and from this video it turns out that the elixir is actually his tears. Bégoniax finds that out, jumps into the mirror and becomes... "beautiful". As promised, she helps Rayman: https://raymanpc.com/wiki/en/File:R3HD_Cinematic_2.jpg
And that's how Rayman brought love and peace to the swamp.
To thank him, the witch and the hunter promised to take care of the Wooglah, and showed the way to the Land.
After 3 days of walking, our friends arrive at last at the second temple...

As for why Bégoniax is looking for a beauty potion? I think she has a thing for Razoff from the start, but Razoff hates ugly things (hence the Uglies being imprisoned in his mansion, and the Uglies even being named that in the first place), so she doesn't have a chance without the beauty potion.

The early story is pretty fun and helps to make sense of a lot of things that are not explained in the final game. I should try to reconstruct it one of these days.
Elite Piranha wrote: Mon Mar 22, 2021 12:10 amAlso, where can I watch the Razoff-Bégoniax cutscene?
I linked it in my previous post :)
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Re: Rayman 3

Post by Elite Piranha »

Droolie wrote: Mon Mar 22, 2021 2:12 am I linked it in my previous post :)
Sorry, I don't know how I didn't see the link. Thanks for uploading the videos to YouTube!

Btw, I found the actual polish Rayman 3 demo in the Komputer Swiat website (it seems that an .exe file can be downloaded). I guess this website should be mentioned in the wiki.
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Re: Rayman 3

Post by paulnewman2001 »

That little plot of Rayman helping Begoniax would have definetely fit in the final game, it's weird to see her again without any explanation when you defeat Razoff.

And also, it's great to finally see those Rayman 2-styled cutscenes from 3, makes me wonder if the game originally played like 2 aka throwing magical orbs instead of fists back in the early stages.
Last edited by PluMGMK on Mon Mar 22, 2021 7:10 pm, edited 1 time in total.
Reason: Merged double post
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Re: Rayman 3

Post by ElZboub »

Really interesting to see all the leftovers in this demo! However, isn't there a solution to have sound in the other cinematics?

Speaking of demos, I saw on Raymap that there was a demo of Rayman 3 on Gamecube but it's not listed anywhere on the Internet, neither on Raywiki nor on the Dolphin wikia
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Re: Rayman 3

Post by PluMGMK »

paulnewman2001 wrote: Mon Mar 22, 2021 1:16 pm That little plot of Rayman helping Begoniax would have definetely fit in the final game, it's weird to see her again without any explanation when you defeat Razoff.
Yeah, I've just realized that even in the final game, she's standing there in front of the mirror and using it to stare into Razoff's cave. That's why you hear Globox's voice through it at the beginning of the level. Then she jumps in and teleports when she spots her chance (he's running scared from the Uglies that he had locked up).

There are lots of plot holes in the final version though, like why does the mirror teleport Rayman to a different location when he jumps into it? And why does there happen to be a mirror in Razoff's cave, that happens to go to the Land? And why is Razoff so scared of the Uglies?

So yeah, while the old story may have been judged twee in the context of the tone of the game they were trying to make, it was a lot more coherent than what we ended up with! I wonder if the story change was a rushed job then…

EDIT: Something else which suggests a possible rush job is the weird way they structured the map containing Bégoniax's house in the final game: viewtopic.php?p=1413795#p1413795
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Re: Rayman 3

Post by Hunchman801 »

Thanks for clarifying the plot, PluM and Droolie! Razoff's tears being an elixir of beauty makes perfect sense. Despite the whole thing being removed, the final game doesn't feel as empty as, say, Origins, so they made a rather good job at removing some of the plot in that regard.

Also, I look forward to reading this reconstructed story if you ever get to it, Droolie. :D
Elite Piranha wrote: Mon Mar 22, 2021 6:10 am Btw, I found the actual polish Rayman 3 demo in the Komputer Swiat website (it seems that an .exe file can be downloaded). I guess this website should be mentioned in the wiki.
ElZboub wrote: Mon Mar 22, 2021 3:46 pm Speaking of demos, I saw on Raymap that there was a demo of Rayman 3 on Gamecube but it's not listed anywhere on the Internet, neither on Raywiki nor on the Dolphin wikia
Please feel free to add a paragraph about those on RayWiki, then!
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Re: Rayman 3

Post by ElZboub »

Hunchman801 wrote: Mon Mar 22, 2021 7:40 pm Please feel free to add a paragraph about those on RayWiki, then!
I would like to, but I don't know where to find the ISO of this demo. On Raymap the only files available are the 2 playable maps without the rest of the files to launch the game :cry:
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Re: Rayman 3

Post by paulnewman2001 »

PluMGMK wrote: Mon Mar 22, 2021 7:17 pm
paulnewman2001 wrote: Mon Mar 22, 2021 1:16 pm That little plot of Rayman helping Begoniax would have definetely fit in the final game, it's weird to see her again without any explanation when you defeat Razoff.
Yeah, I've just realized that even in the final game, she's standing there in front of the mirror and using it to stare into Razoff's cave. That's why you hear Globox's voice through it at the beginning of the level. Then she jumps in and teleports when she spots her chance (he's running scared from the Uglies that he had locked up).

There are lots of plot holes in the final version though, like why does the mirror teleport Rayman to a different location when he jumps into it? And why does there happen to be a mirror in Razoff's cave, that happens to go to the Land? And why is Razoff so scared of the Uglies?
So yeah, while the old story may have been judged twee in the context of the tone of the game they were trying to make, it was a lot more coherent than what we ended up with! I wonder if the story change was a rushed job then…
EDIT: Something else which suggests a possible rush job is the weird way they structured the map containing Bégoniax's house in the final game:
viewtopic.php?p=1413795#p1413795
I wouldn't really question the mirror thing, Glade of Dreams is pretty magical place after all, :P
And yeah, I agree with you, not only that small quest would have given more of a character to Begoniax but also lenghtened the game which would have been a plus, and I'd say that Ubi simply dropped it because they didn't like it that much tho who knows?
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Re: Rayman 3

Post by Hunchman801 »

ElZboub wrote: Mon Mar 22, 2021 7:56 pm I would like to, but I don't know where to find the ISO of this demo. On Raymap the only files available are the 2 playable maps without the rest of the files to launch the game :cry:
Maybe Droolie can provide more information about this demo, since he is a contributor of Raymap? :hap:
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Re: Rayman 3

Post by PluMGMK »

paulnewman2001 wrote: Mon Mar 22, 2021 9:10 pmI wouldn't really question the mirror thing, Glade of Dreams is pretty magical place after all, :P
Magical yes, but not usually so convenient. Remember, even the Teensies can't send Rayman exactly where he needs to go – they have to use those sometimes-broken highways, and in one disastrous instance, even send him through a sanity-sapping "shortcut". And yet, there just happens to be a magic mirror in Razoff's cave that sends Rayman and Globox to the Land? Seems rather strange, doesn't it? (Although I haven't really thought about it myself in many years :oops2:)

Maybe the implication is supposed to be that the mirror there is Bégoniax's one that she somehow took with her, or maybe that she can enchant mirrors in general. Anyway, whichever it is, maybe the ideas is that she set it up to send Rayman to his destination, in gratitude for landing Razoff in her lap. I don't think she knew where exactly he was going (since they never exchanged any civilized words!), but she just told the mirror to send him wherever he needed to go, in this case the Land.

Anyway, I guess I'm just saying that the whole thing could've been made a bit clearer. :hap:
paulnewman2001 wrote: Mon Mar 22, 2021 9:10 pmAnd yeah, I agree with you, not only that small quest would have given more of a character to Begoniax but also lenghtened the game which would have been a plus, and I'd say that Ubi simply dropped it because they didn't like it that much tho who knows?
I think a "happily-ever-after" storyline just didn't fit with the tone of the game they ended up making. In the final version, Rayman leaves quite a lot of chaos in his wake, which can be quite disturbing when you think it through – what kind of life is in store for Razoff now? Not to mention the Knaaren: viewtopic.php?f=13&t=27536 :confus:

Interestingly, the exception seems to be in the Land itself, where it seems to be implied that Rayman freed the Griskins from a curse. Even that's muddled though, since the only things I recall freeing them from in the game are cages, and a little Hoodlum-constructed jail cell. So yeah, they screwed up that bit of the story too. :hap:
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Re: Rayman 3

Post by paulnewman2001 »

Yeah, I think you're right, now that I think about it, I wouldn't mind having some kind of a mini remake of 3 with upgraded plot.
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Re: Rayman 3

Post by PluMGMK »

Well, maybe if/when Droolie gets around to reconstructing the old story, someone could try to make a game out of it!
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Re: Rayman 3

Post by ElZboub »

I just found the demo! It's in the European version of the Interactive Multi-Game Demo Disk of April 2003. I didn't find it before because Dolphin's site didn't reference it. I'll try to add it to the list of Rayman demos on the Wiki later. But it looks like the levels were taken from the retail version (since the demo was released a month after the game was released), so I don't think there are any major changes
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Re: Rayman 3

Post by Hunchman801 »

deton24 wrote: Mon Mar 22, 2021 10:18 pm Google for "Project Deluge" and you will found out that, and much more...
ElZboub was talking about a GameCube demo, not the PS2 E3 prototype. But it's fine, looks like he's finally identified it. :D
PluMGMK wrote: Mon Mar 22, 2021 11:19 pm Magical yes, but not usually so convenient. Remember, even the Teensies can't send Rayman exactly where he needs to go – they have to use those sometimes-broken highways, and in one disastrous instance, even send him through a sanity-sapping "shortcut". And yet, there just happens to be a magic mirror in Razoff's cave that sends Rayman and Globox to the Land? Seems rather strange, doesn't it? (Although I haven't really thought about it myself in many years :oops2:)

Maybe the implication is supposed to be that the mirror there is Bégoniax's one that she somehow took with her, or maybe that she can enchant mirrors in general. Anyway, whichever it is, maybe the ideas is that she set it up to send Rayman to his destination, in gratitude for landing Razoff in her lap. I don't think she knew where exactly he was going (since they never exchanged any civilized words!), but she just told the mirror to send him wherever he needed to go, in this case the Land.
Interestingly enough, according to this early plot, Begoniax and Razoff merely showed Rayman a way to the Land of the Livid Dead, and it took him three days of walking to arrive at the "second temple", which I assume to be in the Land, otherwise this would mean that the latter wasn't even seen in the game back then, and only mentioned in a cutscene as a place Rayman and Globox had to go through. So, there appears to be a contradiction between the heroes using a mirror to warp straight to the Land, and walking three days to arrive there.
ElZboub wrote: Tue Mar 23, 2021 11:18 am I just found the demo! It's in the European version of the Interactive Multi-Game Demo Disk of April 2003. I didn't find it before because Dolphin's site didn't reference it. I'll try to add it to the list of Rayman demos on the Wiki later. But it looks like the levels were taken from the retail version (since the demo was released a month after the game was released), so I don't think there are any major changes
Glad to know you found it! I'm sure it's still worth adding to the list, even though there won't be many changes listed. :)
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Re: Rayman 3

Post by Droolie »

Hunchman801 wrote: Sun Mar 21, 2021 8:40 pmNow regarding the textures, there's quite a lot of stuff in there too! I don't suppose the corresponding 3D models are available, at least for characters? Image being able to see what the Zaqoas (I guess they're the same as the Zaqs) would have looked like in detail.
Nope, no 3D models are available sadly. By the way, I realized now that "Zaqoas", the name of the folder, is in fact "Zaq oasis" (just like other folder names like "knagrott" or "maraisbego" are also shortened). So the aquatic world was an oasis, and an oasis would be inside of a desert, which fits completely with the scrapped desert environment. They were probably two environments in one world.
Hunchman801 wrote: Tue Mar 23, 2021 12:03 pmInterestingly enough, according to this early plot, Begoniax and Razoff merely showed Rayman a way to the Land of the Livid Dead, and it took him three days of walking to arrive at the "second temple", which I assume to be in the Land, otherwise this would mean that the latter wasn't even seen in the game back then, and only mentioned in a cutscene as a place Rayman and Globox had to go through. So, there appears to be a contradiction between the heroes using a mirror to warp straight to the Land, and walking three days to arrive there.
Well, the mirror that Rayman goes through to the Land of the Livid Dead in the final game did not exist or wasn't used in the old story - it must've been thrown in as a lame excuse for the sudden world change when they removed most of the narration about Rayman and Globox traveling.

In the old story, the temple was indeed in the Land of the Livid Dead/Moor of Mad Spirits (which existed all the way back in 2000) -- in fact all the temples were in the same locations as the doctors' offices now. You can still see this in Raymap: if you load the Gamecube version (which has the most leftover names) and scroll all the way down, you will find names for sectors/pieces of the environment. The landmarks in the background which are now used as doctors' offices all have the name "temple". :)

... and that is yet another thing that makes no sense in the final story. The biggest landmark in a world is some doctor's office? Please. It would at least be understandable if it was some sacred temple.



Oh, by the way, speaking of Raymap, the new prototype is now supported in it. It's "PS2 Demo (2002/05/17)". There is some interesting stuff to be found there, scrapped animations for Rayman, climbing animations for Globox and multiple level exits and entrances (that would still work in the prototype if those maps were included) suggesting that you could backtrack to earlier parts of the same world.
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Re: Rayman 3

Post by ElZboub »

Just added the 2 missing textures that were found in the PS2 beta files to the Flabar. But I can't make the wing outline transparent
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