Politics - your views

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Joe Biden is...

Good
2
7%
Bad
11
39%
Whatever
15
54%
 
Total votes: 28

Adsolution
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Re: Politics - your views

Post by Adsolution »

Сым wrote: Fri Nov 13, 2020 7:22 amWon't you just admit it's cosmetic? Your argument is flawed, and it shouldn't be considered valid.
Lying to yourself to the point you start to believe in your own lies is pretty concerning. :|
Won't you just admit it's non-cosmetic? Your argument is flawed and shouldn't be considered valid. I've taken the time to explain my opinions in detail, including why I think your reasoning is wrong. If you're not going to reciprocate, I don't know why you're here.
Сым wrote: Fri Nov 13, 2020 7:22 amIf I was going to make a discriminatory statement it would be something like this:
typical british.jpg
That's one example, yes, because it will leave people with a negative stereotype of British women, resulting in them potentially receiving some unfair treatment ("must be bitchy-" *insta swipe left*). Banning trans people from the military is actually a far more direct example, since it's equally and entirely unfair to all trans people.
Сым wrote: Fri Nov 13, 2020 7:22 amI'd happily blow your head out with a shotgun to prove you wrong. :mryellow:
I'm probably a better shot. :winkgrin:
Сым wrote: Fri Nov 13, 2020 7:22 amTo summarize this discussion, I will quote a famous philosopher I have a lot of admiration for:
Rulez and I are best friends. :tssk:
Steo wrote: Fri Nov 13, 2020 8:26 amI don't think this is the case. For example, me having ADHD is basically something I can't help. It's classed as a disorder more than an illness; however, if a sex change is classed as non-cosmetic, then I'll class ADHD as a mental issue. Regardless, I'm pretty happy in general and have no intention of killing myself. If you don't want to die while having some sort of mental illness, then you simply won't. Only a physical illness could kill someone who doesn't want to die.
Dude, ADHD doesn't even have anything to do with depression. :oops2: Yes, autistic people are a bit more likely to experience depression than most people, but these other mental issues (schizophrenia, bipolar, and sure let's throw dysphoria in there) actually have depression as an integral factor.
Steo wrote: Fri Nov 13, 2020 8:26 amIf you don't want to die while having some sort of mental illness, then you simply won't.
This line deserves special attention for its absurdity. People with the two aforementioned mental issues can love life, and only in their sudden bouts of depression and mania they might experience multiple times a day they have little mental agency over might get a sudden urge to kill themselves. Many do all the time and end up huddled on the floor with a knife crying, waiting for the feelings to pass - some people even remove all sharp objects from their own houses to prepare for their depressive episodes, and choose not to live off the ground floor.

I'm genuinely surprised by the amount of people around here who have obviously never met people with serious forms of these conditions, and how much they underestimate how terrible all of them are to live with. I have OCD that can be quite intrusive at times and I had no intentions of bringing that up because it'd be embarrassing given the scope of the conversation. Anyone who's ever gotten high can tell you how much at the mercy of our own minds we truly are, especially when we feel weak.
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ScalieDan
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Re: Politics - your views

Post by ScalieDan »

Steo wrote: Fri Nov 13, 2020 8:26 am
ScalieDan wrote: Thu Nov 12, 2020 7:43 pm Mental issues can lead to death even if the person who has it sincerely wants to survive. If you tell a trans who killed themselves right before they did it, you don't want to live, they will probably say not nice words to you.
I don't think this is the case. For example, me having ADHD is basically something I can't help. It's classed as a disorder more than an illness; however, if a sex change is classed as non-cosmetic, then I'll class ADHD as a mental issue. Regardless, I'm pretty happy in general and have no intention of killing myself. If you don't want to die while having some sort of mental illness, then you simply won't. Only a physical illness could kill someone who doesn't want to die.
ScalieDan wrote: Thu Nov 12, 2020 7:43 pm also, serious illnesses, you mean lethal illnesses or terminally ill.
I'm aware of this, I can use alternative phrases without the need for perfect wording.
ScalieDan wrote: Thu Nov 12, 2020 7:43 pm And also, the reason for suicide in trans case is a physical cause which extends to mental health. Your mind dies... not your heart...
Well this can happen for so many other reasons other than being trans. How about people who suffer from strokes, or hemorrhages? I'm pretty sure this also kills their mind much more than being upset about their gender. It makes sense to not think so selfishly and realise that other people outside of LGBT still matter too.
not all illnesses are terminal. Not all mental issues are terminal. your example fails.
Real talk, cancer is not terminal. There is a tiny chance of regression. Something you don't seem to know. You equate ADHD witth gender dysphoria. Reminder, suicide is high in trans. I know you are not very knowledgeable about trans so for the sake of everyone, don't engage in topics you know very little about. If you want to share opinions, cool. You can also try going into it. At this point I think it's best for you to not engage...

"Well this can happen for so many other reasons other than being trans. How about people who suffer from strokes, or hemorrhages? I'm pretty sure this also kills their mind much more than being upset about their gender. It makes sense to not think so selfishly and realise that other people outside of LGBT still matter too." no one downtalks other issues. The main issue is you down talking trans even though the """upset""" part is a psychological nightmare. quit the topic Steo, please.

Edit: with not terminal I mean to use perceived definition. 100% death sentence. Well terminally ill means unless extraordinary things happen, you are going to die.

The random regression of cancer is something not really understood at all. many say it's a "miracle".
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Re: Politics - your views

Post by Steo »

Adsolution wrote: Fri Nov 13, 2020 9:24 am Dude, ADHD doesn't even have anything to do with depression. :oops2: Yes, autistic people are a bit more likely to experience depression than most people, but these other mental issues (schizophrenia, bipolar, and sure let's throw dysphoria in there) actually have depression as an integral factor.
Any disorder could make a person depressed, since:
Adsolution wrote: Thu Nov 12, 2020 3:23 pm hey, I wish I could do what literally everyone else can
Then we have:
Adsolution wrote: Fri Nov 13, 2020 9:24 am This line deserves special attention for its absurdity. People with the two aforementioned mental issues can love life, and only in their sudden bouts of depression and mania they might experience multiple times a day they have little mental agency over might get a sudden urge to kill themselves. Many do all the time and end up huddled on the floor with a knife crying, waiting for the feelings to pass - some people even remove all sharp objects from their own houses to prepare for their depressive episodes, and choose not to live off the ground floor.

I'm genuinely surprised by the amount of people around here who have obviously never met people with serious forms of these conditions, and how much they underestimate how terrible all of them are to live with. I have OCD that can be quite intrusive at times and I had no intentions of bringing that up because it'd be embarrassing given the scope of the conversation. Anyone who's ever gotten high can tell you how much at the mercy of our own minds we truly are, especially when we feel weak.
I have and they were never like this. None of them were trans though, they just had depression in general. They never done anything like you're mentioning though, this sounds like a bit of a stretch. I've been drunk many times, and even been high at the same time on some occasions, but I never felt down unless I actually had a bad day, which was just a temporary thing.
ScalieDan wrote: Fri Nov 13, 2020 9:33 am not all illnesses are terminal. Not all mental issues are terminal. your example fails.
Real talk, cancer is not terminal. There is a tiny chance of regression. Something you don't seem to know. You equate ADHD witth gender dysphoria. Reminder, suicide is high in trans. I know you are not very knowledgeable about trans so for the sake of everyone, don't engage in topics you know very little about. If you want to share opinions, cool. You can also try going into it. At this point I think it's best for you to not engage...
Cancer is very serious, don't even try to joke about this. I clearly know what I'm talking about, I lost family to this fucking illness. Also, if you don't have ADHD, then don't try to judge it, because you clearly don't know what you're talking about either. While you can go and get this operation if you're trans and have it possibly help you, "there is no cure for ADHD".
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Re: Politics - your views

Post by Сым »

Adsolution wrote: Won't you just admit it's non-cosmetic? Your argument is flawed and shouldn't be considered valid. I've taken the time to explain my opinions in detail, including why I think your reasoning is wrong. If you're not going to reciprocate, I don't know why you're here.
I already explained my reasoning as to how sexual reassignments are the same as modifying any other elements of your physical appearance. That also explains why your reasoning is wrong, and you still couldn't back this up.
Adsolution wrote: Banning trans people from the military is actually a far more direct example, since it's equally and entirely unfair to all trans people.
Сым wrote: What you see as discriminatory treatments doesn't make much sense, because if a part of the population could be a disadvantage to others both professionally and personally I don't see why they should be given access to the job function even if they wanted it.
Adsolution wrote: I'm probably a better shot. :winkgrin:
The only difference is my shotgun won't be in my mouth. :hehe:
Adsolution wrote: Rulez and I are best friends. :tssk:
You're missing the point. :fou2:
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Hunchman801 🇮🇱 wrote: How big are those ovens you use? :P I would never fit in mine. :lol:
Hunchman801
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Re: Politics - your views

Post by Hunchman801 »

All right guys, I've seen more than enough name calling and aggressive quips here in the last couple days, so please stop now. We're deeply committed to keeping this community a safe and pleasant place where people can chat, debate and have fun in a warm-hearted atmosphere, just as much as we stand for freedom of speech and our members' right to freely express their opinions as long as it's done in a respectful manner.

This includes offensive memes whose sole purpose is to mock the other person, unless it's obvious that it's just two friends having a go at each other. Thanks for your understanding, and as for the debate itself, I'll reply to a few points later but so much has been said that I don't have time to do it now. :fou2:
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Adsolution
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Re: Politics - your views

Post by Adsolution »

Apologies for my two in question. I meant the p** one in light humour. :mrgreen:

Steo wrote: Fri Nov 13, 2020 9:56 amAny disorder could make a person depressed, since:
Adsolution wrote: Thu Nov 12, 2020 3:23 pm hey, I wish I could do what literally everyone else can
And I said that people on the spectrum are more prone to depression, but it isn't an integral factor. The other conditions I mentioned have debilitating forms of depression as the centrepiece that are far more intense on average.
Steo wrote: Fri Nov 13, 2020 9:56 amThey never done anything like you're mentioning though, this sounds like a bit of a stretch.
No, definitely not. :down: I lost my friend ten years ago in a very sad way (I even wrote all about the event leading up to in on RPC back then) and my uncle to it. And for the record, I personally found it just as fucked up as my aunt dying from stomach cancer, asking me to kill her one time when it was just me and her in the hospital room. Yeah, it's tragic when someone with the will to live is murdered painfully and slowly by a horrible condition - it's also tragic when someone with the will to live and love just loses their mind constantly, the worst part being that it's still them doing it. When you're able to argue with yourself like an invisible entity that wants to kill you and takes over sometimes, it's frightening. And don't take that hyperbolically, she was terrified constantly of the evil person in her head that liked to take over and make her life a living hell. Mental issues are incredibly serious, especially because of the lacking sympathy from the majority of people who don't take them seriously.

They're the same things that can often cause people to commit school shootings, but it manifests externally instead of internally. It's absolutely tragic and worthy of funded medical attention.
Сым wrote: Fri Nov 13, 2020 10:00 amI already explained my reasoning as to how sexual reassignments are the same as modifying any other elements of your physical appearance.
You haven't provided any counters to the ones I've given you so far regarding it being cosmetic or not. If you believe you have, please quote the text, because I just reread all of your posts for the last 4 pages to double-check and I can't find it.

Here's one more straightforward rephrasing of my argument for convenience's sake:

Changing your sexual organs provides a functional difference during sex. One is female, one is male. The experiences and emotional connection to the physical acts are worlds apart. It also causes you to stop producing your primary biological hormones naturally. Nothing mentioned so far has anything to do with how it looks cosmetically, only how it functions differently as an organ. Cosmetic modifications provide zero complete functional differences like this.

Please provide a counter.
Сым wrote: The only difference is my shotgun won't be in my mouth. :hehe:
I'm glad you learned and it also wasn't loaded the first time!
Сым wrote: You're missing the point. :fou2:
Clearly.
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ScalieDan
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Re: Politics - your views

Post by ScalieDan »

Steo wrote: Fri Nov 13, 2020 9:56 am
ScalieDan wrote: Fri Nov 13, 2020 9:33 am not all illnesses are terminal. Not all mental issues are terminal. your example fails.
Real talk, cancer is not terminal. There is a tiny chance of regression. Something you don't seem to know. You equate ADHD witth gender dysphoria. Reminder, suicide is high in trans. I know you are not very knowledgeable about trans so for the sake of everyone, don't engage in topics you know very little about. If you want to share opinions, cool. You can also try going into it. At this point I think it's best for you to not engage...
Cancer is very serious, don't even try to joke about this. I clearly know what I'm talking about, I lost family to this fucking illness. Also, if you don't have ADHD, then don't try to judge it, because you clearly don't know what you're talking about either. While you can go and get this operation if you're trans and have it possibly help you, "there is no cure for ADHD".
Ok now it's really time to stop.
Cancer is serious, I have increased risk of thyroid cancer due to genetics. I do regular checks. My grandmother survived it. I'm forever greatful for it.

ADHD, as I worked with people who have it and looked into the condition a bit, is NOT a fundamental dysharmony over your entire body. You equate 2 mental issues that are essentially like cancer vs clearer disease.

You are not knowledgeable about this topic. I'm not trans, I looked into how they feel, wgat psychology and research has to say.

You are grossly downtalking gender dysphoria. Please skip this topic. I know what you say, you only sound bad as you dismiss a horrible thing like that.

Also, no, you don't "heal" trans. You merely try to make things fit. The condition is still there, they sometimes get emotional push backs.
There is no "healing" treatment for trans.
The option of transitioning is merely the best we know to do.
We cannot actually change sex and give them proper body structure.

to put it simply
"there is no cure for gender dysphoria"
Only treatments to make it easier and ADHD has training sessions and medicine too. Though let's not go into it all toi much.

*quit the topic please*. I'm requesting this because I see a serious lack of education

Edit: https://www.sciencedirect.com/science/a ... 6416300255 a little read about regression..I do not downtalk cancer. I just take issues when someone downtalks mental issues/challenges. Especially implying they didn't want to live. ugh.
Last edited by ScalieDan on Fri Nov 13, 2020 3:19 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Politics - your views

Post by Adsolution »

I agree with most of that, but I don't see a problem with engaging - everyone's thoughts on a matter only get refined with both reflection and discussion.
ScalieDan wrote: Fri Nov 13, 2020 2:30 pmAlso, no, you don't "heal" trans. You merely try to make things fit. The condition is still there, they sometimes get emotional push backs.
There is no "healing" treatment for trans.
The option of transitioning is merely the best we know to do.
We cannot actually change sex and give them proper body structure.
By "actually change sex", what are you referring to exactly? The only other factors that aren't currently addressed by modern technology I think are the reproductive system and X/Y chromosome, the latter of which doesn't matter after you're already born, the former of which has actually been done before, it's just not standard practice at all. You could probably maybe find a way to get it done in Thailand somewhere (not making a joke - they pioneered modern SRS) if you cop some fresh organs on the black market.

One of the first breakthrough SRSs ever performed was actually a full transplant of the female reproductive system that functioned, but the patient died four years later because this was the 1930s.
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Re: Politics - your views

Post by ScalieDan »

Adsolution wrote: Fri Nov 13, 2020 2:42 pm I agree with most of that, but I don't see a problem with engaging - everyone's thoughts on a matter only get refined with both reflection and discussion.
ScalieDan wrote: Fri Nov 13, 2020 2:30 pmAlso, no, you don't "heal" trans. You merely try to make things fit. The condition is still there, they sometimes get emotional push backs.
There is no "healing" treatment for trans.
The option of transitioning is merely the best we know to do.
We cannot actually change sex and give them proper body structure.
By "actually change sex", what are you referring to exactly? The only other factors that aren't currently addressed by modern technology I think are the reproductive system and X/Y chromosome, the latter of which doesn't matter after you're already born, the former of which has actually been done before, it's just not standard practice at all. You could probably maybe find a way to get it done in Thailand somewhere (not making a joke - they pioneered modern SRS) if you cop some fresh organs on the black market.

One of the first breakthrough SRSs ever performed was actually a full transplant of the female reproductive system that functioned, but the patient died four years later because this was the 1930s.
Modern western countries offer certain options. The treatments do not give you a functional organ (female to male, idk about male to female). The synthetic penis doesn't work without doing things on your own each time before sex. Hormon version one also isn't the best as your body essentially produces a rather small version of a "penis" that is hypersensitive. (I hope I do the process justice in how I explain it lol).
Body structure is also about hips, shoulders, sometimes face and while in theory a very expensive operation can be done, this isn't part of the treatment covered and the chromosomes are indeed not changed (yet) or rather, a gene within chromosomes.

Obviously my knowledge is limited to the legal options with ethical concern.

Also yeah a fully functional reproductive system is missing. Something a number do wish.
As you notice, I only looked into one side (because I stumbled upon that). I can't tell outside of it. I know the female to male is considered "harder" to do.

Regardless of the imperfections, it helps a lot already. Imagine what the rate would be if it was fully done x3.

also with your comment on engaging, if you mean my request to Steo, it's because I just know him and I sincerely wish for him to not join before looking into it more. From experience, this hasn't turned out well before so it's a pleasing of mine 😅
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Re: Politics - your views

Post by Hunchman801 »

ScalieDan wrote: Tue Nov 10, 2020 6:23 pm how come a country was assumed that was bad and broken and how come a lot saw it as racist and the definition is prejudice on the bases of racial factors such as skin colour.
Assuming your home country is shit without knowing it, by guessing being black means you aren't born American, is a racist remark. If you want to call it xenophobic, I think it lessens what it actually was.
How come "a lot saw it as racist"? How come a lot of people are wrong all the time, you might as well ask. Appeal to the masses is a logical fallacy, and thank God popular judgment is by no means an indicator of truth. People are assuming that Trump based this remark on the race of the targeted people while he never said such a thing. Let's stick to the facts rather than attempt to impute motives that only seek to confirm our biases and opinions.
ScalieDan wrote: Tue Nov 10, 2020 6:23 pm xenophobia isn't race but nationality and ethnicity (well this can go into racism but yeah).
But like I said, the reasons for those travel bans weren't hatred for people of certain nationalities, but rather the stability, crime rates and terrorist activity of the countries in question.
ScalieDan wrote: Tue Nov 10, 2020 6:23 pm I don't think I ever talked about net worth and net worth doesn't undo the insane amount of debt. Which simply is a risk factor and isn't new as a risk factor. If he gets rid of assestd for prices, yeah he can undo this risk. Doesn't make it untrue that he has them...
Then I'm not sure why you think it's a risk. Is debt that bad if I can easily repay it?
ScalieDan wrote: Tue Nov 10, 2020 6:23 pm Well it's important to understand US job system.
A lot of states do kot require to tell why you are fired so those states won't be fixed by supreme court. However, there are states which demand a reason for firing and so a lot more people that aren't straight have it saver now as they cannot be fired for having a same sex partner for example.

There is also mare about equality act etc.
And it kinda matters that *federal law* protects them as all states have to obey them. States also had own protection laws and honestly, all you need to know is that supreme court made it way better for people not straight and this decision also impacts future as demanding reason for ban might spread more.

In the states that don't demand it, they need to hide the reason it was based on sexual orientation. Even those states a person might sue if evidence is clear it wasn't a baseless firing but against federal law.
What kind of protections are we talking about, though? Surely you can't expect the law to prevent companies from firing homosexuals for no reason when it's fine to do the same for heteros? Sorry, I'm still not sure what laws you're referring to and how the process works here.
ScalieDan wrote: Tue Nov 10, 2020 6:23 pm As said, short hand. I would encourage looking into development of biased sentencing, biased criminak reports. The video I gave just starts to mention issues. This is a lecture topic and completely breaks the scope of this forum discussion.
I understand that you're imputing some of those differences to bias. All I'm saying is there's no possible way this might result in almost an order of magnitude in difference.
Adsolution wrote: Wed Nov 11, 2020 1:38 pm SRS on the other hand I can't define as cosmetic, since while it affects your appearance, that's only auxiliary. Of course the plastic surgeon is going to do their best to make the results look nice, but the primary purpose of SRS is to allow the person to have sex normally, because the alternative is, for instance, living as a girl with a penis, and one that doesn't even work properly (without enough testosterone, it shrinks and doesn't function correctly). Women generally want something put in them, and guys generally want something to put in someone (that doesn't have a dick).
Adsolution wrote: Fri Nov 13, 2020 11:51 am Changing your sexual organs provides a functional difference during sex. One is female, one is male. The experiences and emotional connection to the physical acts are worlds apart. It also causes you to stop producing your primary biological hormones naturally. Nothing mentioned so far has anything to do with how it looks cosmetically, only how it functions differently as an organ. Cosmetic modifications provide zero complete functional differences like this.
I get your point about the functional aspect of gender reassignment surgery, but I don't see why it should take precedence over the correction of physical traits that have a purely psychological impact on the people that possess them (not to mention that in the end you justify the need to perform gender reassignment surgery by the psychological impact of this functional difference). Your reasoning appears to postulate a hierarchy in which the inability to have sex the way you want is a much more important issue than anything pertaining to mental health, and I should add that if the way someone wants to have sex is only with supermodels, then an ugly face or a fat body will most certainly be a serious impediment towards that.
Xenon wrote: Wed Nov 11, 2020 9:21 pm Free cosmetic surgery is kind of a false equivalent because, if offered for free, it would attract scroungers and ne'er do wells, myself included, who don't have deep dissatisfactions with their natural physical characreristics, but looking to take advantage of a free facelift.
And so will gender reassignment surgery. There's scroungers everywhere, even if the majority is of good faith.

Also, I noticed that the suicide rate for transgenders was brought up on multiple occasions. I think it's important to stress that correlation is not causation, and that we shouldn't jump to the conclusion that they always commit suicide because they're unhappy with their bodies or the way society treats them. This might very well be a case of people with mental issues such as depression being more likely to become transgender. It's actually a pretty clear case of causal ambiguity here.
Adsolution wrote: Fri Nov 13, 2020 1:47 am Canada's development started with the import of Chinese immigrants and slaves to build our railway. If we freely exploited these people in the past, I don't see anything wrong with letting their kids have some of the cake their families worked hard to make through no willingness of their own. They don't need a reason to come here and live a better life than the one they probably currently are, we as citizens largely welcome them with open arms and see no reason not to. The country is huge and only has 30 million people in it.
I'm not very familiar with the history of Canada, so how were those immigrants exploited? Didn't they move to work there of their own free will? As for slaves, I'm reading that their number is estimated at less than 4200 in total under European colonization, so I'm not sure how much of an impact this can possibly have had over 160 years?

Anyway, this is irrelevant to the main point, which is that you're amalgamating the children of yesterday's immigrants (who, quite obviously, are already in the country) and new immigrants. If you don't need a reason to let the entire world into your country, then fine by you, but because those immigrants are of the same race and/or origin as otherwise completely unrelated people that moved to the country two centuries ago and did their share is one of the most nonsensical reasons I can possibly conceive when it comes to immigration.

The country being huge and sparsely populated is hardly an argument too: surely you don't expect those people to settle in the Canadian Arctic (even though it must be absolutely lovely there!), and anyway, what does it matter if there's no jobs for them and you end up paying for their unemployment benefits while the relative poverty they live in results in a drastic increase in crime rate and terrorism? Welcome to France, and trust me, we're such a shithole now.
Adsolution wrote: Fri Nov 13, 2020 1:47 am European countries probably feel very differently about their identity given it's far more than 150 years old and the country was built by a bunch of fellow Euros duking it out instead. It's a nationalistic mindset I genuinely have a hard time understanding as it's 100% nonexistent here (except for the one weird kid who hangs a Canadian flag in their window) and mocked to death, to our country's benefit in my opinion.

I only bring this up because I think Canada and France are probably some of the two most opposite countries in this way, and it's just amusing to me, especially because a chunk of our country is French and wants nothing to do with the rest of it... the prideful bastards. :mrgreen:
It's your country's choice to let its (however recent) culture die as immigrants bring their own and are not expected to blend in in the slightest, with people sporting conspicuous religious symbols all the way up to the government.

I guess that when your culture is millenary, once controlled vast regions of the world, reached previously unparalleled economic power, and has influenced almost every corner of the planet, it's slightly harder to dismiss it as a laughable, ludicrous, peculiar affinity only weird kids care about.
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Re: Politics - your views

Post by ScalieDan »

edit: removed some quotes from another discussion x3
Hunchman801 wrote: Fri Nov 13, 2020 3:31 pm
ScalieDan wrote: Tue Nov 10, 2020 6:23 pm how come a country was assumed that was bad and broken and how come a lot saw it as racist and the definition is prejudice on the bases of racial factors such as skin colour.
Assuming your home country is shit without knowing it, by guessing being black means you aren't born American, is a racist remark. If you want to call it xenophobic, I think it lessens what it actually was.
How come "a lot saw it as racist"? How come a lot of people are wrong all the time, you might as well ask. Appeal to the masses is a logical fallacy, and thank God popular judgment is by no means an indicator of truth. People are assuming that Trump based this remark on the race of the targeted people while he never said such a thing. Let's stick to the facts rather than attempt to impute motives that only seek to confirm our biases and opinions.
ScalieDan wrote: Tue Nov 10, 2020 6:23 pm xenophobia isn't race but nationality and ethnicity (well this can go into racism but yeah).
But like I said, the reasons for those travel bans weren't hatred for people of certain nationalities, but rather the stability, crime rates and terrorist activity of the countries in question.
ScalieDan wrote: Tue Nov 10, 2020 6:23 pm I don't think I ever talked about net worth and net worth doesn't undo the insane amount of debt. Which simply is a risk factor and isn't new as a risk factor. If he gets rid of assestd for prices, yeah he can undo this risk. Doesn't make it untrue that he has them...
Then I'm not sure why you think it's a risk. Is debt that bad if I can easily repay it?
ScalieDan wrote: Tue Nov 10, 2020 6:23 pm Well it's important to understand US job system.
A lot of states do kot require to tell why you are fired so those states won't be fixed by supreme court. However, there are states which demand a reason for firing and so a lot more people that aren't straight have it saver now as they cannot be fired for having a same sex partner for example.

There is also mare about equality act etc.
And it kinda matters that *federal law* protects them as all states have to obey them. States also had own protection laws and honestly, all you need to know is that supreme court made it way better for people not straight and this decision also impacts future as demanding reason for ban might spread more.

In the states that don't demand it, they need to hide the reason it was based on sexual orientation. Even those states a person might sue if evidence is clear it wasn't a baseless firing but against federal law.
What kind of protections are we talking about, though? Surely you can't expect the law to prevent companies from firing homosexuals for no reason when it's fine to do the same for heteros? Sorry, I'm still not sure what laws you're referring to and how the process works here.
ScalieDan wrote: Tue Nov 10, 2020 6:23 pm As said, short hand. I would encourage looking into development of biased sentencing, biased criminak reports. The video I gave just starts to mention issues. This is a lecture topic and completely breaks the scope of this forum discussion.
I understand that you're imputing some of those differences to bias. All I'm saying is there's no possible way this might result in almost an order of magnitude in difference.

Also, I noticed that the suicide rate for transgenders was brought up on multiple occasions. I think it's important to stress that correlation is not causation, and that we shouldn't jump to the conclusion that they always commit suicide because they're unhappy with their bodies or the way society treats them. This might very well be a case of people with mental issues such as depression being more likely to become transgender. It's actually a pretty clear case of causal ambiguity here.
"How come "a lot saw it as racist"? How come a lot of people are wrong all the time, you might as well ask. Appeal to the masses is a logical fallacy, and thank God popular judgment is by no means an indicator of truth. People are assuming that Trump based this remark on the race of the targeted people while he never said such a thing. Let's stick to the facts rather than attempt to impute motives that only seek to confirm our biases and opinions."

this wasn't just my main point. It may went under that I used the definition of racism, which btw is defined by the masses. It's true that objective things are not defined by masses. language however is defined by humans and his action of assuming they are not from USA AND their country was bad while the only indicator seems to be the skin, makes it a very racist remark. Now you can say "you cannot possibly know if he had skin in his mind"
That goes down to being a racist and acting racist. You may argue he isn't a racist but sure as heck that action looked racist and indications say it was prejudice on the bases of a biological difference.

"But like I said, the reasons for those travel bans weren't hatred for people of certain nationalities, but rather the stability, crime rates and terrorist activity of the countries in question. "

I clarified that it's the generalisation which makes it such for me. You can say it wasn't that way, it's not ok to fo prejudice of an entire group on the bases of a certain number of them. These traits mentioned are not inherently Mexican, Inherently muslim etc. it's prejudice of an outside group on an ethnicity kind of level which makes it arguably xenophobic. You can say this is too loosely defined. I did give some links, some of which may give examples or explain in othet ways the issues of his actions.

"Then I'm not sure why you think it's a risk. Is debt that bad if I can easily repay it?"
Debts have deadlines, sometimes, mostly. He has to get rid of assets to... get the money ya know. He doesn't have the money ready. He can be pressured. It's not so easy as you might think especially when time pressure can play a role. Hence why debt is a risk factor for FBI.

"What kind of protections are we talking about, though? Surely you can't expect the law to prevent companies from firing homosexuals for no reason when it's fine to do the same for heteros? Sorry, I'm still not sure what laws you're referring to and how the process works here."

Heteros are protected by the same law by default. Also it kinda misses why these things exist.
The supreme court made clear that you can't fire on the bases of a partner. This includes heteros. In fact, most half way decent countries write "sexual orientation" which also includes heteros.
But heteros do not face these issues even remotely close like gays do.

Before supreme court if they knew you were gay, you could be fired for it straight up and list homosexuality as the reason to fire without issues. This caused several teachers their job when they got married, and other jobs.

The new ruling says that you cannot use "homosexuality" or if you care to name it too, "Heterosexuality" as a reason to fire.

It's not about anything big, these laws are in a good number of western countries and just prohibit some heavy discrimination.

There is still an issue, many states do not require to give a reason for firing a person or letting them go.

I really don't want to explain the whole thing on whole usa. Short hand is this,
Supreme court made discrimination illegal, Trump wanted discrimination to continue. idk how you are towards gays but I think we shouldn't be fired because we are gay. I hope you agree...

"I understand that you're imputing some of those differences to bias. All I'm saying is there's no possible way this might result in almost an order of magnitude in difference."
Again, this is not a topic for this website. going into details is something I really don't want and I would have to refresh on data and much more. I just encourage you to look into reasons why it may be like that. Shaun, that YT link I gave, has given some points in gis 17min video that wasn't even focused around this specific one.

"Also, I noticed that the suicide rate for transgenders was brought up on multiple occasions. I think it's important to stress that correlation is not causation, and that we shouldn't jump to the conclusion that they always commit suicide because they're unhappy with their bodies or the way society treats them. This might very well be a case of people with mental issues such as depression being more likely to become transgender. It's actually a pretty clear case of causal ambiguity here."

bullying has is related to suicide and there is some clear indication that trans is indeed the factor. I don't have have numbers right here but we talk about over 50 times more likely or I think maybe a magnitude more. This is not a joke kind of relationship. It's known as one if the biggest issues (besides social acceptance).

And linking depression with gender dysphoria is what is known as false diagnosis. Again, these can happen but psychologists do take like a very long tine before making a call. So I haven't seen a data set suggesting what you said here. At all.
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Re: Politics - your views

Post by Adsolution »

Hunchman801 wrote: Fri Nov 13, 2020 3:31 pmYour reasoning appears to postulate a hierarchy in which the inability to have sex the way you want is a much more important issue than anything pertaining to mental health,
I'm mostly trying to express why I feel having a missing genitals, or ones your mind doesn't cooperate with, is debilitating to your mental health and enough to cause its own set of psychological issues.
Hunchman801 wrote: Fri Nov 13, 2020 3:31 pmand I should add that if the way someone wants to have sex is only with supermodels, then an ugly face or a fat body will most certainly be a serious impediment towards that.
I'm making the distinction between something that is merely implausible and completely physically impossible. I don't know if that's an actual practical distinction, but I feel as though it is.
Hunchman801 wrote: Fri Nov 13, 2020 3:31 pmI'm not very familiar with the history of Canada, so how were those immigrants exploited? Didn't they move to work there of their own free will?
Abhorrent working conditions and death rates - One particular bridge on the CPR was considered "an embarrassing waste of human life". Approximately one worker died per every mile of track laid between Calgary and Vancouver, and the railway spans almost the entire width of Canada. Once they were here, they didn't really have many other options.
Hunchman801 wrote: Fri Nov 13, 2020 3:31 pmAs for slaves, I'm reading that their number is estimated at less than 4200 in total under European colonization, so I'm not sure how much of an impact this can possibly have had over 160 years?
That was just very poor wording on my part. It's more that the railway workers experienced slave-like conditions.
Hunchman801 wrote: Fri Nov 13, 2020 3:31 pmAnyway, this is irrelevant to the main point, which is that you're amalgamating the children of yesterday's immigrants (who, quite obviously, are already in the country) and new immigrants. If you don't need a reason to let the entire world into your country, then fine by you, but because those immigrants are of the same race and/or origin as otherwise completely unrelated people that moved to the country two centuries ago and did their share is one of the most nonsensical reasons I can possibly conceive when it comes to immigration.

The country being huge and sparsely populated is hardly an argument too: surely you don't expect those people to settle in the Canadian Arctic (even though it must be absolutely lovely there!), and anyway, what does it matter if there's no jobs for them and you end up paying for their unemployment benefits while the relative poverty they live in results in a drastic increase in crime rate and terrorism? Welcome to France, and trust me, we're such a shithole now.
I'll just concede on this topic as I wasn't being totally honest, nor was I really making a point - it's quite difficult to get a Canadian citizenship. We do see many immigrants, but it's never been a problem.
Hunchman801 wrote: Fri Nov 13, 2020 3:31 pmIt's your country's choice to let its (however recent) culture die
We have an entire mall that's exclusively Mandarin (no English writing at all) right across the block from the second biggest mall in the country. The city I live is only 1/3 white - majority Hindu, with large areas that have little English writing again. You can go downtown and find those stands of meat legs hanging from strings off the banner. It's totally fine. It doesn't even sound fine in concept, but it is. I very much enjoy and welcome the way aspects of various Asian cultures have naturally integrated themselves. It wouldn't feel like Vancouver/wherever without them, and I like how they're becoming even more so over time.
Hunchman801 wrote: Fri Nov 13, 2020 3:31 pmI guess that when your culture is millenary, once controlled vast regions of the world, reached previously unparalleled economic power, and has influenced almost every corner of the planet, it's slightly harder to dismiss it as a laughable, ludicrous, peculiar affinity only weird kids care about.
There are big demonstrable economic effects as you've said of course, that can't be overlooked. I feel like we're naturally better equipped to deal with immigration though due to it having been popular here for far longer, making up a far larger percentage of the population naturally, meaning large, clean communities of already well-integrated immigrants who were allowed to retain comfortable portions of their own culture exist, and so you don't have Indian kids running across the middle of Main Street with stick hoops and stuff.
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Re: Politics - your views

Post by Сым »

Adsolution wrote: Changing your sexual organs provides a functional difference during sex. One is female, one is male. The experiences and emotional connection to the physical acts are worlds apart. It also causes you to stop producing your primary biological hormones naturally. Nothing mentioned so far has anything to do with how it looks cosmetically, only how it functions differently as an organ. Cosmetic modifications provide zero complete functional differences like this.
Сым wrote: If someone was going to modify any other element of their physical appearance they didn't feel comfortable with by surgery the same things would go for them, and that shows how important it is.
Sexual reassignments are purely cosmetic like I stated before. If you modified any other element of your physical appearance by surgery its shape would be different regardless of what it is, and if you didn't feel comfortable with your physical appearance it's still going to have a positive psychological impact.

By definition the procedures remain cosmetic themselves therefore it is cosmetic surgery. Change my mind.
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No worries, to give you support I will help you load it and engrave on your tombstone you are the best shot. :wink:
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Re: Politics - your views

Post by Steo »

Considering all of these random comparisons and examples keep coming up, I'll just get straight to the point, my view (which I'm not going to change).

So basically, I'm not talking about people being born with missing limbs, I'm talking about people who have functioning organs. If a person has functioning organs, this means they have functional sexual organs. If a man wants to be a woman, and they have working sexual organs already, that means they can already experience the likes of sexual pleasure. This is why I view it as cosmetic, because they can already experience these feelings, and the way you look on the exterior is literally cosmetic. Now, if a man actually had such a tragic accident that he lost his manhood, I'd no longer class it as cosmetic since it's 100% necessary to have some sort of procedure in this case, they can't just be left in such an injured state.

As for those comparisons, yes it's true that ADHD has nothing to do with it; however, both of them can somewhat affect a person's mind, altering how they think. The only reason this was brought up is because we kept shifting topic, and I was just explaining a few things. This isn't a comparison, but I just want to point out that a person who is trans can have all sorts of procedures and therapy, which in the end can possibly benefit them in their case. There's so much help offered to people who want to transition basically.

ADHD is something that a person simply can't be helped with, nothing you can do or say to a person with it is going to help them, they have to live with it and try manage to become better themselves. That's even something that therapy would never help with, nothing would, and even the medication people take can just hinder them even more.

That's my view on it all basically, there are many disorders out there which have different effects on people.
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Re: Politics - your views

Post by ScalieDan »

Steo wrote: Fri Nov 13, 2020 7:28 pm Considering all of these random comparisons and examples keep coming up, I'll just get straight to the point, my view (which I'm not going to change).

So basically, I'm not talking about people being born with missing limbs, I'm talking about people who have functioning organs. If a person has functioning organs, this means they have functional sexual organs. If a man wants to be a woman, and they have working sexual organs already, that means they can already experience the likes of sexual pleasure. This is why I view it as cosmetic, because they can already experience these feelings, and the way you look on the exterior is literally cosmetic. Now, if a man actually had such a tragic accident that he lost his manhood, I'd no longer class it as cosmetic since it's 100% necessary to have some sort of procedure in this case, they can't just be left in such an injured state.

As for those comparisons, yes it's true that ADHD has nothing to do with it; however, both of them can somewhat affect a person's mind, altering how they think. The only reason this was brought up is because we kept shifting topic, and I was just explaining a few things. This isn't a comparison, but I just want to point out that a person who is trans can have all sorts of procedures and therapy, which in the end can possibly benefit them in their case. There's so much help offered to people who want to transition basically.

ADHD is something that a person simply can't be helped with, nothing you can do or say to a person with it is going to help them, they have to live with it and try manage to become better themselves. That's even something that therapy would never help with, nothing would, and even the medication people take can just hinder them even more.

That's my view on it all basically, there are many disorders out there which have different effects on people.
Idk why no one ever looked at my reasoning for why very few of those who look into it considere it cosmetic.

it's an emergency treatment. It's like someone has spread in cancer in idk, a place that can be easily removed. (no complicated stuff for sake of argument). You do it because it gives you a significant increase in mental and physical health.

I think sexual pleasure has a role but seriously, from all trans people I have apoken to, no one thought of sexual pleasure or anything like that. It seems to be all about actually getting improvement.

If you think the surgery isn't necessary

https://williamsinstitute.law.ucla.edu/ ... er-adults/

An interesting study showing relationship of suicide and trans unique factors as well as suicide factors all humans essentially share.

emergency surgeries are never done in a cosmetic sense. Why do I call it emergency? because generally this is done very late in the process with other things like trying to see if you need it, looking if gender role is the bigger issue than sex (male/female kinda sense).

This is not done for beauty, this is done to treat something very serious using surgery which is one of the few things which shows promise atm.

We can go deeper into it and there are some examples many may come up with as a "but this would also be non cosmetic then, if xyz" yes, it would indeed no longer be cosmetic. But at least tell me they had a psychological investigation with sessions that can go above a year and internal struggle.

ADHD is 100% irrelevant same reason why a cold is irrelevant to cancer. your comparison with therapy and such is again, a comparison that depends on severity. Don't. a top recommendation is transitioning...

If you want to make one more point to what I said just now, ok. Otherwise that side of topic is closed for me.
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Re: Politics - your views

Post by Steo »

I don't have much else to say, psychological disorders are just things a person has to live with is all basically.
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Re: Politics - your views

Post by ScalieDan »

Steo wrote: Fri Nov 13, 2020 9:47 pm I don't have much else to say, psychological disorders are just things a person has to live with is all basically.
I'm happy my family member who had/has schizophrenia (diagnosed) kinda got enough treatment to not go insane anymore and seemingly overcome the worst of it.

I'm also happy not all mentak issues and illnesses are forever and some have treatments while not solving it, actually improve it significantly :)

those treatments are treatments, not cosmetic stuff.
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Re: Politics - your views

Post by Steo »

I agree on that level because these are psychological, only so much can be done to aid a person with such illnesses, but they usually can live a normal life.
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Re: Politics - your views

Post by Keane »

Yea alright, we can do the US election I guess, even tho I'm a little sick of hearing about it at this point :boon: Um...is there a way to clear the votes from the previous poll?

I just checked out of the election back in April honestly, when Bernie dropped out. I was stoked about his campaign and even signed up to volunteer (though I never ended up getting any jobs sadly), it felt genuinely amazing to be united with people in a common cause like that and see so many disenfranchised, poor, neglected people be given something to rally around...which made it all the more crushing when all that energy got snuffed out and replaced with fucking Joe Biden.

I guess between Biden and Trump sure, I think it's better that Biden won? I think he'll be marginally better on a few issues and it's also just funny to watch Trump eat shit, I'm really glad I don't have to spend another four years thinking about him. :roll: But I'm not naive enough to believe a Biden administration is going to oversee any kind of significant or long-lasting positive change, it's probably just gonna be more austerity and liberal cultural posturing that could very well lead to another Trump-like figure being elected in a couple years.
RaymanPC wrote:"Transgenders"
How many of you actually know any trans people on a personal level, or would consider yourself well-versed on these issues? Not that these are prerequisites for having an opinion about it, but some of the posts here come off genuinely clueless about the most basic experiences of trans people.
I forgot who brought it up too lazy to check wrote:Suicide rates
Is this not pretty obvious? Trans people are brutally oppressed in most of the world, and in countries where they're relatively accepted they still consistently face high rates of discrimination, harassment, domestic violence, hate crimes, etc. A majority of trans people are lower class or below the poverty line. Tons of trans people have to cut ties with family and friends when they come out. And that's all on top of gender dysphoria itself, which can be crushingly depressing and frustrating without anyone else's input.

I'm too lazy to pull up a bunch of studies to get the exact numbers and I don't really care, but it's absurd to me that anyone would fall for this crappy talking point promoted by the scummiest media rags that actually trans people are just in masses killing themselves because of transition procedures (that the vast, vast majority of trans people report as improving their lives), and not because of the obviously bad conditions they face. You have to pretty much know nothing about trans people to even entertain the idea.
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Re: Politics - your views

Post by PluMGMK »

Keane wrote: Sat Nov 14, 2020 9:19 am Yea alright, we can do the US election I guess, even tho I'm a little sick of hearing about it at this point :boon: Um...is there a way to clear the votes from the previous poll?
You can clear the votes by either changing the number of options, or by deleting and recreating the poll. I know, the way phpBB does this is beyond idiotic. :boon: Also, I wish there was an alternative poll suggestion too, but I got nothing. :oops2:

Edit: I fixed it for you.
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