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Master
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Re: Sonic the Hedgehog

Post by Master »

On the plus side, it doesn't seem to have impeded any hacking efforts yet. I've been ghosting about the Sonic Retro forums, and they've already made some swaps and the like.

EDIT: Neat.
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Re: Sonic the Hedgehog

Post by Rayfist »

Interesting seeing more and more tidbits of secrets being unveiled within Mania. This gives me the impression that we still have even more to uncover.

On another note some interesting pre order stuff was shown for Forces:
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Most of these are typical SEGA IP's, but one stands out:
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I'm definitely surprised to see Joker from P5. I know SEGA owns Atlus now, but it's an interesting crossover nonetheless.
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Re: Sonic the Hedgehog

Post by Master »

I knew they got a new team a while back, but I never thought we'd be at this sort of stage again: Looks like S2HD might happen after all.
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Re: Sonic the Hedgehog

Post by CHRdutch »

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Re: Sonic the Hedgehog

Post by Greeness »

There's also this new trailer for Forces which was released on Sonic's Japanese channel, which I'm surprised none of us talked about here:


Either way, I think this is by far the most interesting trailer, showing us that Infinite is Eggman's creation and the impact that they had to Sonic's world, so far this seems to be the story I wanted a Sonic game to have since Unleashed.
However the most interesting part of the trailer to me was this area they've shown in one of the cutscenes:
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In some ways it reminds me of Grand Metropolis zone from Sonic Heroes but with a different feeling.
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Re: Sonic the Hedgehog

Post by Master »

If I'm being completely honest, I've kinda turned off from Sonic Forces. Between Mania and the new Metroid, I haven't been paying as much attention.

That being said, given the massive hints in Mania in regards to a connection between it and Forces, I was wondering how Forces was going to play into it. The trailer does touch upon that connection, so it does look like it'll make sense within the game. That being said, I don't know how I feel about the approach to the serious tone. I don't mind Sonic being serious, as SatAM and some portions of the old Archie comics seemed to make that work. But this feels like they're tiptoeing to corny again.
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Re: Sonic the Hedgehog

Post by Rayfist »

I don't even quite understand the hype behind Forces. Why is this the next "big" new 3D Sonic game? It certainly LOOKS like a budget title, reuse of the boost formula with very little changed, and majority of the levels we've seen have been incredibly automated and linear. I'm not saying it's going to be a bad game, or that I'm not buying it, but I hardly see for what reason so many people seem to be so excited for it? This is suppose to be the first 3D Sonic game on next gen consoles, yet the character models all look the exact same from Generations?

Lost World might get a lot of shit- but I give Sonic Team credit for it, they experimented with something different that, while it was a good direction, wasn't exactly executed very well. I really just want to see a true proper 3D Sonic game. And no I'm not against the Boost formula, but having seen it in Unleashed, Colors, AND Generations, I was thinking Sonic Team wouldn't find much more use for that, but I guess to continue good/average metacritic scores they are willing to do it and not take the risk of trying something new, which is really unfortunate.

I think what interests me and fascinates me so much about 3D Sonic is that although it is a constant barrage of disappointments, I feel like Sonic can work in 3D, but actually making such a game would be very difficult, especially in an open environment (seeing as how that's all the rage now in videogames.) I think the fangame, Sonic Utopia is a great example of how Sonic could potentially work in 3D. While yes- you have a big open area that is a bit barren in the game, you could add objectives/challenges and more incentives to explore, on top of creating some hard platforming challenges. I guess why I'm so fascinated with 3D Sonic is for the sheer amount of potential for the series that almost always feels wasted. You can talk shit about Adventure all you want, yes it technically isn't a good game, but Sonic in both those games, controlled very fluid, and I would not object to seeing such a gameplay style reused.
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Re: Sonic the Hedgehog

Post by Greeness »

I don't know, I like the post apocalyptic setting, and the theme of "Two armies clashing with each other" does seem interesting to me, the only true black spot I have with this game is the inclusion of Classic Sonic, Which I think we had enough of after Mania for now.
Other then that, the Avatar's gameplay style seems to be interesting and customizable, also after playing through Generations for the first time last year, I found out that the "Boost to win" phrase is wrong, and that it could be used for interesting and replayable level designs, and while I would like them to go back to the adventure style of gameplay, I'm perfectly fine with boost as long as it's designed well and still has a emphasise on platforming and exploration, I rather that then another lost world, which didn't really know what it wanted to be.
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Re: Sonic the Hedgehog

Post by Greeness »

Just wanted to share this because I thought it was interesting, apparently the founder of Travellers Tale is going to release a "director's cut" patch for Sonic 3d Blast that'll include control and design improvements with additional features.
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Re: Sonic the Hedgehog

Post by Master »

So I've been following the Forces thread on Sonic Retro, and apparently, the game's been leaked. Folks aren't too impressed with the game, it seems.
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Re: Sonic the Hedgehog

Post by Greeness »

It's interesting you're saying that because I actually read(from other sources) that a lot of people who got the game early thought it was better then how Sega presented it to look like, and that it's not as "straight forward" as people think it is, but I haven't seen any of the leaks so I don't know for myself, what I did see and play is a Japanese demo released for the Switch and PS4, and while for some reason it had a time limit(which is really stupid by the way) I did find the demo overall enjoyable with some issues with the Avatar's controls.

Edit: specifically this review by someone who got the game early has caught my attention-https://www.reddit.com/r/SonicTheHedgeh ... oilers_of/
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Re: Sonic the Hedgehog

Post by Adsolution »

All of the leaked gameplay I've seen looks just as straightforward as Green Hill Zone, which now is notorious for being able to be beat by holding literally nothing but up for a full 30-second stretch - it's neither joke nor speculation any longer, and honestly, it looks like a joke. The only people who I think would be amused by it are those who don't mind the fact it has probably the worst platforming and level design in the series (all three modes), which is saying a lot, and that any sense of interaction inside of a modern Sonic or avatar level is mostly placebo.
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Re: Sonic the Hedgehog

Post by Keane »

It looks really, really bad, I don't think I've ever been this completely disinterested towards a new Sonic game. It's not even like 06 or Boom where you can at least picture the game being good if it was properly finished, here I just feel like I'm watching a kind of dopey tech demo that shouldn't be released.

I like that the presentation caters towards the Sonic kidz but it's missing its edge, the kidz will probably like it but I doubt this game will pull in any new fans to the extend of games like Sonic Adventure 2 or Unleashed. It seems like they're sort of stuck between wanting to cater to that crowd but also not wanting to go full-on DeviantArt fanfic mode.

Maybe their thinking is that the larger crowd for Generations and Mania could also be pulled in by this but I don't think they should bother appealing to those people, it's kind of like Nintendo trying to get people who were nostalgically playing New Super Mario Bros. to also buy Paper Mario.

Also the music is just so like Darude feat. wailing guitar
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Re: Sonic the Hedgehog

Post by Rayfist »

The whole premise of Forces has been sporadic since it was first announced. Even with the full game being leaked, I'm still unsure of what exactly they were trying to do with this, it's clearly trying to invoke a darker tone like SA2 and create this post apocalyptic world but then they go for the whole "Yeah just shove Green hill in there, maybe we can bring back a Casino level? In a forest? Yeah that works." It's almost like they were scared to go all out with the idea without pandering to nostalgia at least just a little bit in hopes that fans can look back and remember at least a few good things. Almost as if they were self-aware this game would not be met with good reception by fans (of course many will still defend it religiously though.)

Forces just seems like an inconsistent mish-mash of ideas that is aimless. But even then that is the LEAST of the game's problems. Like Ad stated, based off the leaks every modern Sonic level can literally be beat by holding the boost button. Remember those few moments in Unleashed, Colors, and Generations where you had to stray away from the boost for a bit to do a bit of platforming or drifting? Yeah virtually none of that is in Forces and you know for a fact Sonic Team did not give a fuck. Using the boost was quite possibly the most play it safe route Sonic Team could have done and yet they STILL fucked it up.

If there's anything I've always hated about the storybook titles (Secret Rings and Black Knight), I hate automated shit in games, and I especially hate games that are overly scripted that make you feel like you aren't in control of the character very often, Forces seems to almost feel exactly like that. You know that thing about games being immersive? When Sonic games do this so often, I have never felt so un-immersed in a game in my entire life.

On the positive side I can at least say that I really do think people will view Generations a little more favorably now and look at what that game did right. I really do think Generations, despite being heavily scripted, almost perfected the boost formula and would have been a good send off. But it's become quite evident that due to good metacritic scores and wanting to uphold that, Sonic Team won't take any risks. Though again, I would have been fine with this, but Forces level design, despite using the exact same formula as previous titles where it had worked, manages to feel somehow really boring and the level design/structure somehow ends up being really bland. And no, the other 2 gameplay styles do nothing to alleviate this issue, it's just more unnecessary padding and filler like nearly all 3D Sonic games. Classic Sonic is the exact same how he was in Generations, and Avatar is just a nerfed Modern Sonic with some exclusive abilities, nothing to see here.
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Re: Sonic the Hedgehog

Post by Greeness »

So Forces has been out for a couple of days now... and it has got people steering for better or worse.
I myself got a copy of the game a day after launch to see how it actually stacks up againts the opinions I've heard from other folks at that point, and in the end, this game has stuff going againts it but at the same time stuff that hold it together, I'd like to start with Classic Sonic, probably the WORST part of the game for me, levels are stretched out with no charm or effort put into them, with obstacles that are placed with no unique design mentality, and controls worse then in Sonic 4.

Modern Sonic is again like every recent Sonic Team game the most polished part of the adventure, I seriously think there are some interestingly designed stages from him despite having some low points (like Chemical Plant), and the levels(while linear and shorter then usual) are not mostly what the marketing made them to look like, some stages have different pathways that lead to collectables and differnet experiences any given revisit, his controls however, feel off, and like they were ported straight from lost world to work with the boost format, I'm not even kidding it feels like Sonic has two different speed variations: slow and fast, with no transition in between and it feels clunky, it's not too bad to be honest but I think it could've been a lot better and it doesn't have the same amout of precision as the Adventure games or post Unleashed titles.

Avatar is the second to best part in the game, I'm not gonna comment on the actual character creation process since that's not the reason I look forward to playing a Sonic game, However I will say that it's a decent working system to whoever that wants to get serious with it, I'm also not gonna commet too much on the controls since they mostly mimic how Modern Sonic controls just without a boost feature and a double jump (unless the player chooses the Bird as his companion). The avatar has the ability to use the Wisp weapons for differnet pathways and extra artillery not present with Modern or Classic Sonic, a good concept that sadly suffers from the same problems that Modern Sonic does.

The story while it has its problems, I still managed to get a kick out of more then the post Unleashed titles, it basiclly asks a interesting question, what if Eggman actually managed to win? while like usually there are some inconsistencies with the story, it still managed to interest me with incredibly fluid cutscenes and sometimes decnet dialogue.

The soundtrack has some low points but I generally enjoyed most of it.

To sum it up while Sonic Forces leaves a lot to be desired, it still managed to be interesting enough to complete it(Unlike lost world), I don't think this game is for everyone, but strictly those who love the boost and adventure games and want more, it also has a lot of Fanservice for those who played these titles like a prologue with Shadow as a playable character, which is a neat addition after so much time of not having different characters playable.
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Re: Sonic the Hedgehog

Post by Rayfist »

Good timing, I got the game myself and now I can flesh out my thoughts a bit more and ramble a little more like an autist:
Greeness wrote: I'd like to start with Classic Sonic, probably the WORST part of the game for me, levels are stretched out with no charm or effort put into them, with obstacles that are placed with no unique design mentality, and controls worse then in Sonic 4.
Yes, undoubtedly. What the hell happened? Also level design aside, even the control department seems to be iffy, classic Sonic definitely feels nerfed as hell. I like the addition of the drop spin dash and all but the physics somehow feel more botched from Generations (perhaps a result of level design that required the use of physics-based platforming more like Casino forest.) Also an issue I had with both modern and classic Sonic was making simple jumps. 2d Platforming feels really iffy and it can be difficult to control your balance and aim where you're suppose to land. I can't recall it ever feeling this way in any of the past boost games so I have no idea how they butchered it this badly.
Greeness wrote:Modern Sonic is again like every recent Sonic Team game the most polished part of the adventure, I seriously think there are some interestingly designed stages from him
I'm not sure actually, Modern Sonic had to be some of my least favorites actually, and I think a lot of them demonstrated the fundamental issue with the game: automated level design, that makes you feel like you're playing a virtual rollercoaster. Sonic did have a cool few levels with a few open ended paths here and there but those levels were such a rare occurrence because the lack of drift has paved the way for more automated and incredibly linear levels. I think a good chunk of his levels were fairly linear, with maybe just a few showing otherwise (Egg gate, Mortar Canyon.)

Believe it or not, Avatar (and tag team) may have just been my favorite, I feel like these levels had the heavier emphasis on platforming compared to Modern Sonic, and I like the implentation of the wispon abilities as a means of how you can traverse through a level (which can arguably sometimes make them easier), I actually found myself replaying the Avatar stages the most, they just really clicked with me. I think the null space stage is a great example of the one of the very rare occurences where the game chooses to have excellent level design, there were so many open ended paths you could take and the level took excellent advantage of the wispon abilities so you could take different paths according to what ability you had. If only they actually had more levels like this, Forces could've been an alright game at least.
Greeness wrote:The story while it has its problems, I still managed to get a kick out of more then the post Unleashed titles, it basiclly asks a interesting question, what if Eggman actually managed to win? while like usually there are some inconsistencies with the story, it still managed to interest me with incredibly fluid cutscenes and sometimes decnet dialogue.
I was a bit harsh on the story at first but seeing it in action it isn't too shabby. I could kind of do without the generic "Friendship! Let's do this guyz!" statements every few seconds in my face, but the later half of the game had some surprisingly funny and cheesy dialogue to coincide with the war going on, very reminiscent of Sonic Adventure 2 for me.

I think even taking the hardcore Sonic fans into account, while they may enjoy it they'll just experience disappointment, and I think that's the biggest issue I have with Sonic Forces is that many people seem to agree that the level design is incredibly weak. Regardless, I still enjoyed few levels but overall the game feels like a step back in every way from the other modern titles. Though it really has me wondering where Sonic Team plans to go next. I don't think Forces outright "ruined" Sonic such as the likes of 06 or Unleashed, absolute low points of the series, but I think similar to Lost World, fans will just sort of view it as a minor bump.
Regardless I kind of hope they try a more open ended formula for future titles, because I'm sort of getting tired of the automated hallways the modern series has to offer.
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Re: Sonic the Hedgehog

Post by Greeness »

Yes, undoubtedly. What the hell happened? Also level design aside, even the control department seems to be iffy, classic Sonic definitely feels nerfed as hell. I like the addition of the drop spin dash and all but the physics somehow feel more botched from Generations (perhaps a result of level design that required the use of physics-based platforming more like Casino forest.) Also an issue I had with both modern and classic Sonic was making simple jumps. 2d Platforming feels really iffy and it can be difficult to control your balance and aim where you're suppose to land. I can't recall it ever feeling this way in any of the past boost games so I have no idea how they butchered it this badly.
He was just not needed in this game, we already got Mania this year and this doesn't do it any favors.
I'm not sure actually, Modern Sonic had to be some of my least favorites actually, and I think a lot of them demonstrated the fundamental issue with the game: automated level design, that makes you feel like you're playing a virtual rollercoaster. Sonic did have a cool few levels with a few open ended paths here and there but those levels were such a rare occurrence because the lack of drift has paved the way for more automated and incredibly linear levels. I think a good chunk of his levels were fairly linear, with maybe just a few showing otherwise (Egg gate, Mortar Canyon.)

I disagree, while his 3d sections tended to sometimes fall to the more linear side, most of the 2d sections had a sense of verticality with upper and lower routes that sometimes led to other areas, and even with some linearity they still managed to be the most visually interesting levels for me.
Believe it or not, Avatar (and tag team) may have just been my favorite, I feel like these levels had the heavier emphasis on platforming compared to Modern Sonic
The Avatar is definitely the playstyle that recieved the most effort in the making, however I don't like how his hook attack is delayed, sure it was to put emphasis on the weapons, but they're unbalanced with some weapons being incredibly powerful(like burst), and some that are just not fun to use(cube), I think the Avatar is overall enjoyable, but his ideas we're not explored to their full potential.
Regardless I kind of hope they try a more open ended formula for future titles, because I'm sort of getting tired of the automated hallways the modern series has to offer
A thing that I started to recently notice after the game's release is that the demand for a new Adventure title has increased, and while these games have their problems, they're for me(at least SA1 and the speed stages in SA2) the best controlling and most fun 3d Sonic games to date, I think it's finally time to go back to the games that made Modern Sonic what he is today to a lot of people(including me), and expand the ideas present in them.
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Re: Sonic the Hedgehog

Post by Master »

https://twitter.com/sonic_hedgehog/stat ... 2332957696

So, uh...you physical copy blokes are going to be very happy, or rather annoyed, I guess.
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Re: Sonic the Hedgehog

Post by Greeness »

It's cool to see Sega breathe some new life into these old characters again, especially Ray since I don't think he has ever gotten classically styled 2d sprites, however I'm curious to know if they'll either act as skins to already existing characters(Sonic/Mighty and presumably Knuckles/Ray) or bring something completely new to the table.

Edit: After thinking about it, Mighty will probably play similarly to his Knuckles Chaotix appearance, However it's still impossible to know what they'll do with Ray.
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Re: Sonic the Hedgehog

Post by Hoodcom »

Master wrote:https://twitter.com/sonic_hedgehog/stat ... 2332957696

So, uh...you physical copy blokes are going to be very happy, or rather annoyed, I guess.
You dare call me a bloke? :pascontent: I'm annoyed at you now, not Sega! :mefiant:


Joking aside.

It is a tad bit annoying that they didn't release the physical release with the collectors edition, which I got for the PS4. However, I'm definitely thinking of getting the physical release for the Switch, it'd be nice to have it on hand there. :)
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