Religion – your views

[iHeckler9]

Yes, I know.

[Mister Dark]

Perhaps our house Creationist, Mister Dark, will have made another response by then? Who knows?

Truth is I don't see much point in arguing any more with you.

Problem #1
The only response you've given to my proof for God's existence is that

there may very well be more ways for a Universe to "come about", even though you (or I) can't think of any.

Even though you or I can't *think* of any? This “debunking” as you called it, is what I've had to deal with since the beginning of the debate, and even all the way up to now you haven't thought of any more logical point in reply. But then you go and talk as though your points are bulletproof and I'm in self-denial, and as if I'm somehow condemning you to hell by being disappointed in your lack of a better answer:

logically, you're forced to meet God face to face.

And there it is: The threat of judgement and eternal damnation.

*How* does that work!? I will say it again: you have used the stereotype of the evil condemning Christian to forward your viewpoint, or at least to brush aside arguments that you can't answer.
This phenomenon is actually seen throughout the history of the Bible in the way Jesus talks to the Phariseahs (as seen in the Gospels) or the way true prophets argued with false ones, (eg. Book of Jeremiah) that is, when one side brought up logical, truthful points, the other side, unable to answer, resorted to dishonourable methods, or, (in Jeremiah's case) would ignore the points brought up altogether.


Problem #2
The fossils you've shown as proof of evolution are questionable, to say the least, easily belonging to ape or man but not something between each. Further more, many of my points you have completely ignored, for an example, the point about the snake with the beginnings of legs, and the verse regarding the “wells of the deep” which has been (like many other verses) proven true in our present day. In fact if you look over all our posts, you will find that there are many points and issues I raised that went unanswered. A lot of the time you would also ask me questions that I had answered already in my very first post, for an example:

what makes you jump to the conclusion that this 'first cause' is god?

and I have constantly had to explain things again that I've explained already, for an example:

Even if this were true, it still falls into the scheme of "something from nothing" or "something from God".

Problem #3
Yet not even this is enough for you. If it was just illogic and having to constantly repeat myself I had to deal with, I would have been happy, more than happy, to continue if only it wasn't for the fact that you've been downright childish for the entire debate. You posit

You are so full of crap!

where there *should* be an intelligent answer to either debunk or achknowledge my point. The only excuse you could think of when I questioned this was

About the insults; that's the way I roll.

. I allowed the insults to continue silently, yet shortly afterwards you became offended because I quoted you, as you put it, out of context

in an attempt to ridicule me. I am personally offended by this and I find it despicable.

? Yet, of course, you could not demonstrate even in the least as to how my quoting could be considered out of context or in mockery of you any more than you can demonstrate that you have the intelligence to answer a simple argument: go back a few posts and check for yourself just what you used the “you're so full of crap” quote to answer to, along with many of your other more aggressive posts, and see if I'm quoting you out of context. Simply put, you quickly become offended or angered and yet find it unfair that I disapprove of your insulting WHEN THOSE INSULTS ARE SET INSTEAD OF A LOGICAL ANSWER.


In short, I won't waste my time with you any longer. However when or if you find a proper answer for my argument beyond "you're full of crap", "you're just condemning me to hell", "you're brainwashed" and "even if I can't think of an answer for your argument it's wrong anyway, and therefore you're wrong" you're perfectly welcome to send me a PM or something and we can continue. Providing, of course, you're prepared to debate respectfully instead of relying on insults and stereotypes to avoid points. May God bless you (I sincerely mean this) and goodbye.

[Mister Dark]

Oh, and in case someone brings it up, I did say that I would provide some evidence for my religion later on. While I'm sure we've all studied evolution, I doubt if the evidence for Christianity has been looked at, heard of, or even achknowledged half as much. So, if anyone's interested, feel free to look and draw your own conclusions. If you don't believe in God, maybe this will change your mind; if you're determined not to believe, this can prepare you for points brought up by creationists in future debates. If you do believe in God, this is some additional evidence to go by. Finally, if you're not sure but are sincerely trying to keep a logical, open mind about it, I hope it sheds some light for you:

1.Document confirming existence of Biblical figure: http://www.trends2000.net/endtimes/docs ... ils-it.pdf

2.Sodom and Gomorrah: sulfur and brimstone discovered unlike any other in the world, (implying heavenly origins) at a site already accurately described by the Bible.
http://www.arkdiscovery.com/sodom_&_gomorrah.htm
http://www.christiananswers.net/q-abr/abr-a007.html

3.Evidence for Noah's Flood and numerous holes in evolutionary theory. Also contains numerous links to additional evidence at bottom of page.
http://www.earthage.org/EarthOldorYoung ... 0flood.htm

4.Prophecies in the Bible having come true:
http://bible-prophecy-today.blogspot.co ... bible.html

Other links of interest:

5.Interesting events occuring with the rise of Christianity
http://www.about-jesus.org/coincidence.htm

6.http://www.christianpersecution.info/

7.Christians win a debate against atheism
http://answers.org/atheism/debate.html

[Cairnie]

Will you please quit multiposting already?

[spiraldoor]

1.Document confirming existence of Biblical figure: http://www.trends2000.net/endtimes/docs ... ils-it.pdf

Just because there's one piece of evidence suggesting that an obscure character mentioned in the Book of Jeremiah may have existed doesn't mean that everything in the Bible is the irrefutable Word of God and we're all going to hell except you, you know.

2.Sodom and Gomorrah: sulfur and brimstone discovered unlike any other in the world, (implying heavenly origins) at a site already accurately described by the Bible.
http://www.arkdiscovery.com/sodom_&_gomorrah.htm
http://www.christiananswers.net/q-abr/abr-a007.html

I would have guessed that the story of Sodom and Gomorrah was inspired by the presence of that sulfur and brimstone, but hey, whatever floats your boat.

3.Evidence for Noah's Flood and numerous holes in evolutionary theory. Also contains numerous links to additional evidence at bottom of page.
http://www.earthage.org/EarthOldorYoung ... 0flood.htm

Ehm, I don't think a worldwide flood is actually possible? Where did the water go?

Also, evolution happened. The "numerous holes" you linked above are all bullshit.

4.Prophecies in the Bible having come true:
http://bible-prophecy-today.blogspot.co ... bible.html

Look at the hundreds of prophecies in the Bible that didn't come true.

Even if those things you linked to really were supernatural psychic predictions which came true, that doesn't really have anything to do with Christianity. Plenty of religions have prophecies which came true. The Mayan thing and all that.

5.Interesting events occuring with the rise of Christianity
http://www.about-jesus.org/coincidence.htm

6.http://www.christianpersecution.info/

Ok. Your point?

7.Christians win a debate against atheism
http://answers.org/atheism/debate.html

Argument 1: The origin of the universe demands an uncaused, timeless, very, very powerful Source that we call the Christian God. He proposed three alternatives to explain the existence of the universe: (1) Something came from nothing; (2) The universe itself is eternal; or (3) The universe was created by something (or someone) eternal. Pastor Knechtle argued that whatever begins to be has a cause; the universe began to be; therefore, the universe had a cause.

Tobbe already dealt with this.

Argument 2: The intricacy and complexity of the universe on both a macro and a micro level indicates an Intelligent Designer. Pastor Knechtle pointed out that if oxygen levels on earth were higher or lower, animal, human, and plant life couldn't exist. If the earth were closer to the sun it would be too hot to support life; if it were farther away it would be too cold. He argued that the inter-dependent complexities of the cell, the human eye, and the eco-system displayed intelligent design that could only come from an Intelligent Designer, such as the Christian concept of God. He gave the classic analogy of the watch: If you find a watch on the sidewalk, you assume it was made by a watchmaker, that it did not come to be as a product of accidental combination of atoms over time. In the same way, the universe displays even greater evidence of design, so we can logically infer an Intelligent Designer (God).

It's called "quantum mechanics".

Argument 3: The existence of moral absolutes (such as justice, truth, good, etc.) can only be explained by an infinite Moral Lawgiver, or God. Pastor Knechtle argued that ethics are not merely a matter of convention, agreement, intuition, or genetic programming, but instead reveal the existence of a Moral Lawgiver whose ethical nature provides an adequate foundation for moral absolutes in human society. He argued that, for example, the Nazi Holocaust against the Jews was not merely subjectively wrong or evil, but objectively and absolutely evil. He argued that individuals might consider it evil through intuition, societies might judge it by its social destructiveness, and communities might agree that it is evil because the majority of people agree; but none of those subjective, human-based ethics can adequately account for the absolute ethic that it is always and absolutely wrong to do these things - or, for example, to torture innocent children. Such absolute ethics are not dependent on human thought or conscience, but on the Moral Lawgiver who is beyond the limits of the universe in which we live.

There are evolutionary reasons for morals. Being nice to people makes you more popular.

Argument 4: Humanity's desire for meaning and value in life presupposes the existence of God. Pastor Knechtle argued that every human society throughout history and around the world has a belief in God, even though their understanding of God may differ. He argued that our innate desire to experience the transcendent, to have value and meaning even after death, can only be accounted for if there is a God who implanted these beliefs and desires in us. He quoted the early Christian church father Augustine, who said, "Our hearts are restless until they find their meaning in God."

Pastor Knechtle contrasted this search for significance with the atheist world view in which life has no transcendent meaning and there is no significance beyond the biological. He quoted the existentialist Camus, who argued for existential meaninglessness. Pastor Knechtle characterized the atheist world view as "life is nothing more than a cosmic joke." Pastor Knechtle used the analogy of the headstone: between your birth date and your death date is the sum total of your life: a mere dash between life and death. On the contrary, he argued, we are created for the purpose of knowing and loving God, and God loves us so much he sent his Son to die for us. In the atheist world, according to Pastor Knechtle, atheist Michael Newdow's love for his daughter is nothing but a bio-chemical reaction, it cannot be justified or grounded as a real value without God.

This is nothing more than wishful thinking. Just because you think your existence would be more meaningful if God existed doesn't mean he does.

I think love is nothing more than a bio-chemical reaction, and do you know what? It changes fucking nothing for me.

Argument 5: The bodily resurrection of Jesus Christ is so verifiable historically that it passes any reasonable test for history or ancient literature. It can be accepted as not only reasonable, but a true historical event.

This argument ties in with the previous four arguments in two ways. First, it is itself an argument for the existence of God because it argues that only God could do what Jesus did, raise himself from the dead. Second, the one who rose from the dead has demonstrated the credentials necessary to tell us that God exists and what God is like. Now Jesus' words in the New Testament document become more than just historical statements. They have risen above or out of mere history to be revealed as God's words speaking about reality.

Pastor Knechtle continued, if Jesus rose from the grave, then this validates his claims to be the Son of God, and we can know that God exists, that he loves us, and that we can have a relationship with him because of Jesus Christ.

Pastor Knechtle argued that our first accounts of the bodily resurrection (found in 1 Corinthians 15) date from within 20 years of the actual event.

At this point, Pastor Knechtle is using the New Testament books as historical documents reporting an historical event. Elsewhere he shows the historical reliability of the documents that make them valid historical sources. That the New Testament is God's Word is an entirely different issue that goes beyond the scope of this debate. Interestingly, while Pastor Knechtle gives a range of 20 years, even some liberal scholars agree that the content of the opening verses to 1 Corinthians 15 represent material adopted by the first Christians within a decade of the death, burial, and resurrection of Christ.

This account of the resurrection appearances relates that more than 500 people were eyewitnesses of the resurrected Christ. He provided the evidence that Jesus actually died on the cross and that the tomb was empty after three days. He argued that the resurrection accounts have the ring of authenticity, especially in that those who became believers had started out as disillusioned disciples who were not expecting a resurrection. There is also a ring of authenticity in the record that women were the first witnesses of the resurrected Christ. Since women in that time were not considered reliable witnesses, someone merely inventing a resurrection would not have concocted their story in a way that had the risen Jesus witnessed first by those who could not testify in court. Because of the physical demonstrations the risen Christ made and the life-changing impact those had on his followers (whose hopes had been dashed at his death), we can be assured that this resurrection was physical and bodily; it was not an illusion, mysticism, wish fulfillment, or spiritual projection.

British scholar and Christian author C. S. Lewis noted, "If Christianity was something we were making up, of course we could make it easier. But it isn't. We can't compete, in simplicity, with people who are inventing religions. How could we? We're dealing with fact. Of course anyone can be simple if he has not facts to bother about."

Pastor Knechtle used the apostle Thomas to represent the contemporary "empiricist," who will only believe what he can verify with his senses. In Thomas's case, Christ appeared and challenged him to touch his body and his wounds to verify empirically that he was the same Christ, that he had been dead, and was now alive. He reminded the audience that Jesus's disciples didn't die only for what they believed, but for what they actually saw - the resurrected Christ. He also argued the contrary - people may die for what they merely believe to be true, but they won't for what they know to be false.

In apologetics, or the defense of the faith, this fifth argument is often referred to as an evidential argument for the truth of Christian Theism. The evidence for the historical Jesus, his teachings, miracles, and resurrection from the dead, is so overwhelming that it places Christianity far above any other world religion. What distinguishes Christianity from all other religions is not its morality - Buddhism promotes moral behavior, not its longevity - Judaism and Hinduism are older, but its claim that God became man and redeemed the world by his own sacrifice. This is Christianity's strongest attribute, since it can stand the test of history and historical empiricism. We can prove what others only theorize, meditatively conjure, or feel. It is also Christianity's greatest vulnerability, because if one could disprove Jesus and his resurrection, one would disprove Christianity itself. As Sir Norman Anderson remarked, Christianity is, truly, "the witness of history" - its original followers died not for a system of rituals or list of behaviors, but for the empirically verifiable and historically preserved fact of the death, burial, and resurrection of Jesus Christ. As the apostle Paul said, "if Christ is not raised, our faith is in vain and we are of all people most miserable."

Eh. If the apostles wanted people to believe Jesus was alive, it makes sense that they'd have women as the first witnesses. It makes it look less contrived.

Also, I don't see why him dying and coming back to life is more possible that simply surviving the crucifixion.

~I have to go now

EDIT: I'm back. I forgot to mention something: All your links were extremely biased. That is all.

[iHeckler9]

Everyone keeps multiposting here! I might as well post this mesage again!

[Xenon]

If you are religious and believe in God, please, pray for me because I've been feeling really groggy and sick.

[iHeckler9]

Well, first I need to have your actual name.
You can't pray to God using nicknames.
'Yo, God! Wassup? I'm totally in need of a tablet or somethin'. Later, big dude!'
I don't think so.

I wonder if you can pray to God using nicknames?

[Holy Crap]

His name is Thomas.

[iHeckler9]

OK, Jesse.

Dear Lord, could you please make Tom off of the BEST Rayman site in the world stop feeling sick? Thnx.
Your pal, iHeckler9 (aka William)

I revealed my name! NOW I MUST DIE!

[Xenon]

Argh, my name needs shortening please. I hate that.

And mehhh, I still feel shite so I don't think anyone is praying... at least not properly.

[iHeckler9]

Maybe this will help.

Oh holy dude in the Chinese culture, Tom off Pirate Community needs help. Please bestow upon him the trials of life or something. Your pal Will.

[spiraldoor]

Nobody here knows my name.

[Xenon]

Perhaps you should share it so that the lord can cure you from poxes, leprosy and boils. Or whatever.

It can't be worse than plain simple 'Tom', anyway.

[iHeckler9]

Or Will. But not saying that's a bad name.

[spiraldoor]

Perhaps you should share it so that the lord can cure you from poxes, leprosy and boils. Or whatever.

Perhaps...

[iHeckler9]

Wait: Xenon said BOILS?
Oops.
I thought he said 'balls'.

[Hoodie74]

I have made a prayer for Xenon to feel better

[iHeckler9]

I hope it works, he could go on a frenzy of some kind...

[Hoodie74]

no he would'nt he's cooler than that