Rayman 3 scores

[sfn42]

@Haruka: Most improvements come from just expanding combos. I guess UbiSoft took only the most basic combos into account and, therefore, they were unable to foresee the developments within the scoring community. I guess we could also say that UbiSoft was just incompetent with their 500k-estimation .

@Adsolution: I tend to see the R3-scoring-community and RPC as separate (albeit intertwined) entities and I referred to the former. Maybe you were not aware of this distinction which caused the confusion.

the mechanics are your rules: they tell you how you can and cannot move, how the scoring system functions, and basically define everything to do within the boundaries of the game

I think this is a highly problematic definition because it cannot distinguish glitches from non-glitches. Your distinction between "how you can and cannot move" is a distinction between the possible and the impossible. The impossible is excluded, but it is not relevant for scoring purposes anyway and everything else, including glitches, falls under the possible, therefore it is permitted by the rules. If we used such a definition, absolutely everything that is possible would be allowed and that would include cheats (as they are indeed possible). This leads me to the next point.

this scoring mode was obviously developed with their programmed mechanics in mind, and they naturally want you to use the mechanics they created to the best of their ability to obtain the highest score possible.

Ubisoft has admitted that they estimated the maximum to be at approximately 500k (as Haruka also said). They created a game with mechanics based on a maximum score of 500k, which we have long since exceeded. Does that mean we should have stopped at 500k? A lot of regular combos (that are in no way glitches) have stretched the mechanics of the game far beyond what we believe Ubisoft intended (a prime example is the Matuvu trick), therefore we cannot limit ourselves to some perceived intentions that are implicitly communicated through the game or, more explicitly, through other channels because they would essentially invalidate all top scores in the HoF. I am leaving the intentionality issue aside, because I've discussed it in some detail in my previous two posts.

most of the known glitches and exploitations in the game which I'm all very familiar with, and suffice to say, they're not the kind of things you'd have found out unless someone told you, or by complete fluke, or if you actively search for glitches.

The same is true of all the bigger combos in the game, though. Many glitches are actually much easier to find than some of the most complex combos in the game (and have been discovered years earlier). How hard/easy it is to find something is not a sufficient criterion to limit a technique in a game. If we just limited ourselves to what is easy to find, the game would be utterly boring and we'd all stopped playing a long time ago.

the mechanics are made to be grasped almost instantly

What about the Matuvu trick? The Razoff-trick in the dungeon? Rolling off an edge? The fastest way to kill hoodlums (using semi-charged shots)? Helicoptering onto a Tribelle? These are all part of the mechanics, not glitches, and they cannot be grasped immediately. Some of these techniques take years of practice. Should we disallow them because they cannot be grasped instantly?

ranging from those who like abusing the hell out of the game through off-the-wall glitches and exploitations, to those who want to be able to obtain a high score by utilising and practicing the game's integral mechanics to their best ability

First, as I illustrated above, your concept of mechanics is very flawed, because, if thought through, it would allow either absolutely everything or basically nothing.
Second, we have always allowed all glitches that are not result of outside influence/outside tampering (cheats, emulator glitches, shutting off your computer/console to increase your score - again my endogeneous vs. exogeneous distinction). Glitches have always been a part of the scoring competition, so why should that suddenly change, just because a new glitch has been discovered and some people are not happy with it? Should we now ban glitches that have been part of canon for many years because of that? What makes them any different than IPG other than the fact that they've been discovered earlier?

alienating those who either don't know about (and wouldn't unless they read through this entire thread) or don't wish to utilise these glitches that do nothing but offset the scoring charts.

The same is true for most combos, though. Everyone is free to read this thread and most information can be found here (the solutions in the first post alone contain enough information to get into the 840k-850k-regions). If someone doesn't want to use a certain technique then it's their problem but it cannot influence the competition. There are certain techniques I don't want to use because I find them too frustrating (which is why I quit playing back in 2009/10), such as comboing the shoe in TLS. But it would be utterly ridiculous if I, or anyone in a similar situation demanded that these techniques not be used by anyone.

At this point, I know of no endogeneous glitch in R3 that gives you extra points and makes things easier. All the glitches discovered to date either require hard work or patience to master, make other combos significantly more difficult or have no bearing on the total score. So far, nobody has posted a valid reason why any specific glitch should be disallowed in my opinion. If anyone has a valid reason, I'd really like to discuss it because it's important for the integrity of the community.

EDIT:
@Xenon: I don't think there is any point in imagining glitches that don't exist and discussing what we would do if they existed. Looking at it from an objective point of view, the idea that the game is so full of glitches that there is nothing else, is a misconception, as Sajiki already pointed out. The glitches are only a small part of the game, compared to all the regular combos we play, yet they receive a disproportionate amount of attention, which makes them seem bigger than they really are.

[MandM81]

Super jumps can be HUGE. They can be so huge you can easily hover out of bounds with them and skip a whole part just like you would with infinite yellow powerup glitch. so what is "global" for you?

I think my definitions were pretty clear.

Local: The glitch can be used for scoring in one combo.

Global: The glitch can be used for for scoring in one or more rooms and areas.

I have never triggered a super jump myself, so I don't know how that works out. But like all jumps, it can probably be used to reach a certain place and there play a combo. Thus I would call it local.

The Helicopter IPG is global in the sense that it can be used to play in several rooms and areas.

[Xenon]

xenon: nice to see you posting! it's also a formidable demonstration of how the relevation of spectacular incidents like these always result in the top players returning to this topic.

pertaining to the association of the ipg with a lack of "tough labour" and "elbow grease", i beg to differ. as already mentioned by cc, the way of playing this level has been fundamentally changed and literally every combo has been influenced by this discovery.

lots of combo ideas have been going down the drain, some have been nearly given up on, before we were able to realize them in the long run, not to mention that the combos itself aren't a piece of cake either.
the final combo alone deserves to be labelled a brainteaser par excellence, as arranging the elements in the most lucrative way possible has proven to be an outrageous challenge.

mind you, several weeks of work have been required to determine a final score and so far, dtucc has been the only person to reach the maximum, with the rest creeping way behind. as i've had the joy of going through this part, i can say that acquiring the max (undoubtedly, for the most part it eventually boils down to personal preferences) provides a really tough challenge.

also, if patience ain't one of your strongest virtues, refraining from playing this part would be my recommendation, considering that it takes roughly 20 minutes to complete this part, provided that you've grown familiar with its way of playing.

still, as you probably didn't had the chance of testing this yourself, it's obviously harder to judge this development, so i can barely blame you.

concerning the sentiment of the traditional style of playing being undermined: while i don't entirely share your view, i can relate to it, particularly with regards to one point sfn made: the dependancy on version differences, which i would also declare as the utmost impudence.

anyway, i hope that you can grab the motivation to give the game another chance in the light of the recent events , although they might not perfectly suit your taste

Nice to see you also. It's like old times, eh?

I was a little unclear in my post in referring to hard labour and elbow grease, and I apologise for that. I wasn't suggesting you guys didn't put any effort into the combo at the top of the tower with the Hoodblasters and the green gem. However, when you announced that this combo was achieved by using a glitch that gave you an infinite x2, I was a little disappointed. I envisaged you playing part 1 to perfection; perhaps even improving some combos on the smaller scale, and then finishing with a grand finale at the top of the tower (of course, this was only after you declared the new maximum).

It's the fact that you used something so ridiculously simple and lacking in innovation as a stepping stone (a nice metaphor), which has replaced a large number of 'normal' combos that do require skill and effort, that makes me question the placement of these insane glitches in the game.

I know it might sound like I'm being a sore loser because I can't (/won't) take advantage of such combos, but speaking honestly I played the game not for my position on the leaderboard, but for the enjoyment and thrill of scoring high and playing combos, which is probably why I can't compare this glitch to launching glitches, or any others for that matter that I personally used in the game.

@Xenon: I don't think there is any point in imagining glitches that don't exist and discussing what we would do if they existed. Looking at it from an objective point of view, the idea that the game is so full of glitches that there is nothing else, is a misconception, as Sajiki already pointed out. The glitches are only a small part of the game, compared to all the regular combos we play, yet they receive a disproportionate amount of attention, which makes them seem bigger than they really are.

It's not the scale of the glitches, it's the nature. Most glitches are fine and don't really affect the physical side of playing and building combos. It would be nice not to have them, but we all know they exist. The ones that do - the ones that replace actual combo scoring - are the ones that need closer inspection.

[Adsolution]

glitches, unlike cheats, are obtainable solely with the use of game mechanics.

But they're often illogical from a viewer perspective, and they shouldn't realistically work, and the only reason many of them do are due to specific design errors. The mechanics shouldn't function this way regularly, so in that perspective, they're identical to the usage of cheats, regardless of how difficult they are to execute. They're difficult-to-execute cheats.

its simply wrong that ipg gives you an instant x2 on totl part 2 score. I imagine you still have to do normal routing and gameplay you would have to pull off without ipg as well.

Well of course, that's how the multiplier functions.


Likewise, I don't feel that those heavily engrossed in discovering glitches and exploitations are fully understanding this from the viewpoint of someone who wants actual, intuitive competition. I'm not in on the competition aspect, but if I were someone who's spent ages trying to play the game properly to gain the highest score possible, I'd be pretty bothered to find out that despite owning the same level of skill as a first-place contender, I'll never reach there, because the current holder is utilising over-and-above glitch tactics.

I'm also becoming increasingly concerned with the level of aggression in this thread. It's supposed to be a platform for sharing and learning but has recently become a battleground. It is no doubt fueled by competition, but I think sometimes it's important to remember that it is just a game, and that an environment of sharing and learning is far more desirable than one of hostility and aggression. I hope the staff members regularly monitor this thread as well as the others because we don't seem to be talking about plum juice and witches' cauldrons anymore...

Admitting to and moving past my poor example of misinterpreting something sfn said earlier, I concur, especially with the level of arguing over ridiculously puerile matters such as secrecy, honesty and betrayal. How does any of that even come into play here?

---

@Adsolution: I tend to see the R3-scoring-community and RPC as separate (albeit intertwined) entities and I referred to the former. Maybe you were not aware of this distinction which caused the confusion.

Ah, alrighty.

I think this is a highly problematic definition because it cannot distinguish glitches from non-glitches. Your distinction between "how you can and cannot move" is a distinction between the possible and the impossible. The impossible is excluded, but it is not relevant for scoring purposes anyway and everything else, including glitches, falls under the possible, therefore it is permitted by the rules. If we used such a definition, absolutely everything that is possible would be allowed and that would include cheats (as they are indeed possible). This leads me to the next point.

Ubisoft has admitted that they estimated the maximum to be at approximately 500k (as Haruka also said). They created a game with mechanics based on a maximum score of 500k, which we have long since exceeded. Does that mean we should have stopped at 500k? A lot of regular combos (that are in no way glitches) have stretched the mechanics of the game far beyond what we believe Ubisoft intended (a prime example is the Matuvu trick), therefore we cannot limit ourselves to some perceived intentions that are implicitly communicated through the game or, more explicitly, through other channels because they would essentially invalidate all top scores in the HoF. I am leaving the intentionality issue aside, because I've discussed it in some detail in my previous two posts.

(...) The same is true of all the bigger combos in the game, though. Many glitches are actually much easier to find than some of the most complex combos in the game (and have been discovered years earlier). How hard/easy it is to find something is not a sufficient criterion to limit a technique in a game. If we just limited ourselves to what is easy to find, the game would be utterly boring and we'd all stopped playing a long time ago.

The largest combos in the game however are still calculable; you can come up with them if you plan hard enough and think far enough outside the box. Glitches like those Xenon mentioned - or especially the LOTLD glitch - are things you simply come across and can't rightly be found through logic. It would be understandable if these glitches were extremely easy to activate accidentally and half of everybody has, but they're in actuality quite the opposite.

What about the Matuvu trick? The Razoff-trick in the dungeon? Rolling off an edge? The fastest way to kill hoodlums (using semi-charged shots)? Helicoptering onto a Tribelle? These are all part of the mechanics, not glitches, and they cannot be grasped immediately. Some of these techniques take years of practice. Should we disallow them because they cannot be grasped instantly?

I didn't mean for literally every mechanic to be grasped instantly, because you first have to discover all the mechanics. I was actually referring to the mechanics being easy enough to grasp for you to realise if something doesn't act the way it should almost right from the start of the game - if a glitch were to occur when performing a simple action, for example, jumping twice as high once for seemingly no reason. This was in response to how easy glitches are to identify.

If someone doesn't want to use a certain technique then it's their problem but it cannot influence the competition. There are certain techniques I don't want to use because I find them too frustrating (which is why I quit playing back in 2009/10), such as comboing the shoe in TLS. But it would be utterly ridiculous if I, or anyone in a similar situation demanded that these techniques not be used by anyone.

Again, I'm reinforcing that my complaints are directed toward illogical exploits such as those Xenon mentioned, and the LOTLD glitch. These:

the ones that replace actual combo scoring - are the ones that need closer inspection.

[sfn42]

I want to reiterate a point I made earlier:

At this point, I know of no endogeneous glitch in R3 that gives you extra points and makes things easier. All the glitches discovered to date either require hard work or patience to master, make other combos significantly more difficult or have no bearing on the total score.

This still holds true. The IPG does not make anything easier. I do not know where the misconception comes from that it is a shortcut or anything of the like or that it doesn't require you to play any combos. Getting 116k (approx. CC's score) without the IPG is not difficult, it's impossible. Without this extra boost, there just aren't enough points to exceed the maximum in part 2. If there were, we would have managed it years ago. I remember how hard Xenon and MandM tried to extend the maximum years ago, coming up with some ingenious combos on the way, but they didn't succeed because the points weren't there. The IPG has made part 2 much harder than it used to be, not a single combo has been simplified.

and they shouldn't realistically work

But they do work. We cannot play in a world of conjectures, of wouldas and shouldas but in a reality and the reality of R3 is that they work.

I'm not in on the competition aspect, but if I were someone who's spent ages trying to play the game properly to gain the highest score possible, I'd be pretty bothered to find out that despite owning the same level of skill as a first-place contender, I'll never reach there, because the current holder is utilising over-and-above glitch tactics.

This may be a good point if we were playing some other game, but it doesn't reflect the reality of R3. There are no top players who have never used glitches. Glitches have always been a part of the development of R3, both the historical and the ontogenetic development. There is just no case in the history of this game, in which a player had streched the limits of the non-glitch game without using any glitches. Also, there are no "over-and-above glitch tactics" in this game. All the relevant glitches require hard work, patience, a ton of skill and often, luck.

The largest combos in the game however are still calculable; you can come up with them if you plan hard enough and think far enough outside the box. Glitches like those Xenon mentioned - or especially the LOTLD glitch - are things you simply come across and can't rightly be found through logic. It would be understandable if these glitches were extremely easy to activate accidentally and half of everybody has, but they're in actuality quite the opposite.

It seems pretty clear that you have never devised any combos or looked for any glitches. Glitches also follow a certain logic, they don't just appear out of nowhere but if you understand the logic, you can understand the glitch and discover it much easier in different places than many combos. Launching glitches are the best example for that. They work only on certain platforms on certain conditions but there is a logic to it. That is a reason many launching glitches have been discovered by CC, Jona, MandM and others (I think the one in DOTK part 7 was among the first discovered in ~2004). These launching glitches are only dependent on the platform configuration/programming. Many complex combos are determined by more factors and they tend to be very local. There is no basic technique/configuration behind every combo. Sure, combo times and Rayman's movements are always the same but these are more general aspects than platform configuration for launching glitches, therefore it is harder to make use of them in specific instances. The difficult aspect of a glitch is understanding the logic behind it. If you can get past this hurdle, many glitches are easier to generalize than combo mechanics and, thus, easier to discover.

[MandM81]

It seems to me it's a debate about different gaming cultures. On one side we have the German trio that have embraced the IPG and entered their scores into HoF. On the other side a group of RPC players that have yet to incorporate this into their game.

May I ask, how many players in RPC have used IPG in achieving their scores?

Also, at some point I guess we will have to decide whether or not we should accept IPG in our HoF.

After reading the posts from the German players about their experiences in using IPG it is clear to me that it is a different game with different combos and different scoring tecniques. I wonder if the difference in cultures could be solved by having an IPG HoF along with the "classic" HoF if that is at all possible, just like there is a HoF for Rayman 3 HD. Perhaps Hunchman can tell us about this option?

Finally, what is the LOTLD glitch?

[Adsolution]

[quote="sfn42"]This still holds true. The IPG does not make anything easier. I do not know where the misconception comes from that it is a shortcut or anything of the like or that it doesn't require you to play any combos. Getting 116k (approx. CC's score) without the IPG is not difficult, it's impossible. Without this extra boost, there just aren't enough points to exceed the maximum in part 2. If there were, we would have managed it years ago. I remember how hard Xenon and MandM tried to extend the maximum years ago, coming up with some ingenious combos on the way, but they didn't succeed because the points weren't there. The IPG has made part 2 much harder than it used to be, not a single combo has been simplified.[/quote]Again, it being impossible is proof as to why it's basically a difficult to execute cheat.

[quote="sfn42"]But they do work. We cannot play in a world of conjectures, of wouldas and shouldas but in a reality and the reality of R3 is that they work.

There are no top players who have never used glitches. Glitches have always been a part of the development of R3, both the historical and the ontogenetic development. There is just no case in the history of this game, in which a player had streched the limits of the non-glitch game without using any glitches.[/quote]And I wouldn't have a problem with this if scores utilising glitches weren't present in the Hall of Fame. The fact that all the top players are the ones utilising glitches just places an inhuman barrier around the top ten or so places. If anyone has the motivation to get their score about 800,000, they're going to utilise these glitches now, it's essentially almost completely banished any highly-skilled, honest players from existence. I understand that it becomes more and more difficult as time goes on to discover new non-glitch combos and whatnot, but in my personal opinion, if these high scores utilising glitches want to be shown off, we leave it outside of the Hall of Fame.

My reasoning? A bare-bone analogy would be how intricate real-life sports don't have glitches. In my opinion, it really destroys the point of the Hall of Fame if we're going to revolve around seeing how we can cause the rules of the game to break open as often as possible instead of doing your absolute best within those rules that are plenty obvious.

[quote="sfn42"]Also, there are no "over-and-above glitch tactics" in this game. All the relevant glitches require hard work, patience, a ton of skill and often, luck.[/quote]"Over-and-above", as in, they aren't something basic and commonplace like rolling off ledges. I'm completely bypassing the amount of effort the glitches take, because that's not relevant to the point.

[quote="sfn42"]It seems pretty clear that you have never (...) looked for any glitches. [/quote]Not so much in Rayman 3, but trying to find glitches in games was basically my thing for as long as I can remember myself gaming, I have hordes of videos showcasing different obscure and insane glitches in many different games I've found on my own on my YouTube channel from ~2007 so I understand full-well their common nature, logistics, and potential difficulty to execute. Of course not every game is the same, but you know what I mean.

[quote="sfn42"]Glitches also follow a certain logic, they don't just appear out of nowhere but if you understand the logic, you can understand the glitch and discover it much easier in different places than many combos. Launching glitches are the best example for that. They work only on certain platforms on certain conditions but there is a logic to it. That is a reason many launching glitches have been discovered by CC, Jona, MandM and others (I think the one in DOTK part 7 was among the first discovered in ~2004). These launching glitches are only dependent on the platform configuration/programming. Many complex combos are determined by more factors and they tend to be very local. There is no basic technique/configuration behind every combo. Sure, combo times and Rayman's movements are always the same but these are more general aspects than platform configuration for launching glitches, therefore it is harder to make use of them in specific instances. The difficult aspect of a glitch is understanding the logic behind it. If you can get past this hurdle, many glitches are easier to generalize than combo mechanics and, thus, easier to discover.[/quote]I still think you're missing what I mean by 'illogicality', despite me having been trying to explain it over the course of the last few posts. There is an understandable logic behind them, but they shouldn't work and weren't intended to. Again, I'm certain you know what I mean by this, so I don't have reason to go into detail.

--

Also, at some point I guess we will have to decide whether or not we should accept IPG in our HoF.

After reading the posts from the German players about their experiences in using IPG it is clear to me that it is a different game with different combos and different scoring tecniques.

This, precisely, and I personally feel that it's not right to allow them into the HoF because scoring in Rayman 3 has basically transformed into something new and different with these exploitative techniques, and I don't see why the 'original' version should have to suffer when it was there first.

Finally, what is the LOTLD glitch?

I actually meant IPG when saying that, I'm not sure why I kept referring to it as the 'LOTLD glitch'. Probably because it kept being used in reference to LOTLD.


EDIT:
I don't want to come across like a cynical ass, this is just the way I feel. I believe some kind of a separation is necessary.

[sfn42]

#1 DTUCC 871625 60 GC
#2 Mountain Goat 870437 60 PC
#3 Cut 868183 60 PC
#4 MandM81 858900 60 Xbox
#5 Xenon 848963 60 PS2
#6 sfn42 845200 60 PS2
#7 Jona 840572 60 PC
#8 Dildo_Potter 833796 60 PC
#9 fzeroman 828246 60 GC
#10 Nikkoss 820848 60 GC
#11 Danone 815620 60 PC
#12 thomscube 809152 60 PC
#13 magicglobox 805763 60 PC
#14 Block 798697 60 GC
#15 babyromu 796153 60 GC

This is the top 15 of the HoF. Red are all the players who definitely used a variety of glitches to get their current scores. I do not know thomscube and magicglobox, therefore I cannot say, whether they used glitches or not but I would be very surprised if they didn't. If you want to be delete all players who used glitches from the HoF, you can essentially delete the HoF. Feel free to do so but it won't solve anything and most players will not be happy about it.

This, precisely, and I personally feel that it's not right to allow them into the HoF because scoring in Rayman 3 has basically transformed into something new and different with these exploitative techniques, and I don't see why the 'original' version should have to suffer when it was there first.

This game consists of 9 levels, which further consist of a total of 48 parts. Of these 48 parts, one is affected by the IPG. That is the magnitude of the IPG.

No offense, but I would ask of you to get an overview of the scoring techniques and history of the scoring community of Rayman 3. Your arguments make you look more and more like an outsider who is barging in and trying to enforce his opinion. I know that this is not your intention but I find it pointless to argue any further when you keep bringing up the same arguments that I have already refuted (in particular your player with no-glitches argument, which is just non-sensical, as I explained in a lot of detail).

[Sajiki]

Super jumps can be HUGE. They can be so huge you can easily hover out of bounds with them and skip a whole part just like you would with infinite yellow powerup glitch. so what is "global" for you?

I think my definitions were pretty clear.

Local: The glitch can be used for scoring in one combo.

Global: The glitch can be used for for scoring in one or more rooms and areas.

I have never triggered a super jump myself, so I don't know how that works out. But like all jumps, it can probably be used to reach a certain place and there play a combo. Thus I would call it local.

The Helicopter IPG is global in the sense that it can be used to play in several rooms and areas.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=mW_USZ3C_bw this is a super jump performed by you. you wrote in your guide "It may take a few attempts before it’s working, but practise makes perfect." and thats exactly what sfn is referring to when hes talking about mastering and understanding a glitch.
in my -personal and very humble- opinion if you want an IPG-less hall of fame you have to exclude any other glitch as well. theres no way of arguing around how impactful a glitch can be because theres no way of creating a definition applying to all of them. also i strongly encourage you to play the game with IPG and glidewalking by yourself to determine the impact it has on the game.

its simply wrong that ipg gives you an instant x2 on totl part 2 score. I imagine you still have to do normal routing and gameplay you would have to pull off without ipg as well.

Well of course, that's how the multiplier functions.

youre being very stubborn arent you? what i was trying to say is, that by no means IPG gives you simply an easy x2 score, but.. im repeating myself.. it just opens up the level in new ways that may be as challenging as playing it the "intended" or rather "optimized" way. i strongly encourage EVERYONE to try out TOTL with IPG before they further argue about this topic.

edit: basically, what sfn said.

[RibShark]

Here's my thoughts:
Glitches, unlike cheats, are part of the gameplay, caused by exploiting a bug in the game mechanics. The boundaries between acceptable and unacceptable glitches is debatable, however.

I propose that there should be three leaderboards: Glitchless, Local Glitches Only (No IPG), and All Glitches Allowed. That way everyone will be clear on whether or not glitches were used and how severe these glitches are. If one person does not believe that glitches are acceptable, they should look at the Glitchless leaderboards, and vice versa. Of course this raises the question of what is a glitch. I myself do not count an oversight in the level design (such as the jump near the beginning of TToTL, where one can skip the majority of the level part) as a glitch, but I am sure there are others who do. This means that rules need to be put in place for each leaderboard on what people are allowed to do to gain their scores, so there is no confusion.

[Adsolution]

@sfn:

I didn't say "delete their scores", in my mind, I was picturing a separate top-ten list or something for exploitative/glitch-users, I'm not sure, anything that will showcase the time and effort spent on doing all that's been done in this thread. The fact of the matter is that there's still a significant scoring increase when exploitative/glitch tactics are involved, and the very idea that you feel I should spend time reading through all 250 pages of this thread to have a voice in such a relatively simple concept I find to be pretty ridiculous, because the topic does not require that.

I'm not trying to enforce my opinion as one everyone has to agree with, simply state it as a valid one worth something, because as it is, you have not refuted most of my arguments, rather, simply continued to blur the subjective line that is the difference between playing a game traditionally and exploiting/glitching it to get a higher score. I see a pretty fine difference with the facts at hand.

youre being very stubborn arent you?

Wut? That has nothing to do with my message that you quoted.

Here's my thoughts:
Glitches, unlike cheats, are part of the gameplay, caused by exploiting a bug in the game mechanics. The boundaries between acceptable and unacceptable glitches is debatable, however.

I propose that there should be three leaderboards: Glitchless, Local Glitches Only (No IPG), and All Glitches Allowed. That way everyone will be clear on whether or not glitches were used and how severe these glitches are. If one person does not believe that glitches are acceptable, they should look at the Glitchless leaderboards, and vice versa. Of course this raises the question of what is a glitch. I myself do not count an oversight in the level design (such as the jump near the beginning of TToTL, where one can skip the majority of the level part) as a glitch, but I am sure there are others who do. This means that rules need to be put in place for each leaderboard on what people are allowed to do to gain their scores, so there is no confusion.

Obviously change isn't really necessary unless more people agree with my viewpoint, but at least this is a subjectification of the topic, which is a breath of fresh air; there's been an extreme lack of it lately.

I'm getting bored though, and since if I ever were to try and score high it would be without the usage of exploitations, I then wouldn't have any reason to anyway, as the top fifteen places are pretty much blocked off.

I'll leave the leets with their HoF.

[sfn42]

If you separate the HoF it becomes a complete farce and a lie, based on a set of arbitrary rules that allows certain players to swindle themselves into a ranking they do not deserve. I have provided a plethora of reasons why this idea is absurd and I will strongly oppose anyone who tries to implement such a HoF.

As Sajiki said, most of the people complaining have not even attempted the IPG. I do not know, why they keep arguing about it, then.

[Adsolution]

If you separate the HoF it becomes a complete farce and a lie, based on a set of arbitrary rules that allows certain players to swindle themselves into a ranking they do not deserve. I have provided a plethora of reasons why this idea is absurd and I will strongly oppose anyone who tries to implement such a HoF.

This is what I mean when I say leet, it's taken so militantly it's ridiculous, with absolutely no room for even considering sympathy towards any different kinds of players.

[MandM81]

Sajiki: Ok, you call that a super jump? I thought you meant a jump taking you to another area.

Sajiki: "in my -personal and very humble- opinion if you want an IPG-less hall of fame you have to exclude any other glitch as well. theres no way of arguing around how impactful a glitch can be because theres no way of creating a definition applying to all of them. also i strongly encourage you to play the game with IPG and glidewalking by yourself to determine the impact it has on the game."

Well, as it happens I tried out the IPG in TOTL part 2 on my old X-Box in the weekend. My experience is as follows: With the Helicopter IGP I could reach the top platform easily and fight the Hoodstormers if I wanted to do that. I could leave the room and enter the tall room with the Elite Monger and a number of yellow gems above. I could take this Elite Monger in a sizeable combo if I wanted to or I could leave the room. In fact, I could leave the gaming area entirely and look at it from a distance like a sketch drawing. I could enter any area I pleased, make a combo and leave the area or room again. I could return to the first room where I could take the green gem from the floor level by the aid of a Hoodblaster. Or I could fly to the upper platform and use the Hoodstormers.

My first comment: Sfn, please don't compare this to any glitch you or I have ever used in our games.

My second comment: The gameplay has changed completely and it is indeed a different game.

My third comment: Floating around in programming codes outside the gaming areas is not my idea of playing a Rayman game. Furthermore, running around the various levels trying to trigger a glitch where you can enter and exit rooms at will is completely lifeless gameplay that has nothing to do with the way R3 "should be" played.

It is hard for me to see the IPG - non IPG games co-exist in the same HoF. I am a firm believer that there are still improvements to be made without the IPG and I prefer we keep the HoF reserved for that. At the same time, I do hope an "IPG and all glitches allowed" HoF can become a reality.

Adsolution: I wasn't aware the glitch originated in TLOTLD. Is there a video of it somewhere?

[sfn42]

It's a competition and devising arbitrary rules just to soothe some people's feelings (and I have to say: nobody has ever complained about the glitches in this game before today), destroys the integrity of the competition and the integrity of the game as a whole. Everyone is free to compete, to put in the hard work required to get to the top of the HoF. If people don't want to put in that kind of work (and we all did, the top 15 I quoted and beyond), then they can't expect to be on top of the HoF. It's as simple as that. There is nobody stopping you from playing R3 just for fun or trying to slightly improve your score but you can't expect to be handed first or second or third place on the HoF on a silver platter. This would be unfair to all players who put in the hard work.

[Adsolution]

Adsolution: I wasn't aware the glitch originated in TLOTLD. Is there a video of it somewhere?

I apologise a second time, I meant TOTL. Don't ask how I managed to keep on typing the wrong acronym despite referring to Tower of the Leptys, they look similar, so my fingers weren't being careful. It's sort of like How I thought the Xebra emulator was called Xerbia just up until yesterday, despite having even searched for and used it many times before.

It is hard for me to see the IPG - non IPG games co-exist in the same HoF. I am a firm believer that there are still improvements to be made without the IPG and I prefer we keep the HoF reserved for that. At the same time, I do hope an "IPG and all glitches allowed" HoF can become a reality.

I share these sentiments completely. If there were to be a second Hall of Fame per se, I think it would be nice if it were visible on the same page so that there isn't any priority or bias given to either side.

[MandM81]

I apologise a second time, I meant TOTL. Don't ask how I managed to keep on typing the wrong acronym despite referring to Tower of the Leptys, they look similar, so my fingers weren't being careful.

Ok, we're on the same page now.

If there were to be a second Hall of Fame per se, I think it would be nice if it were visible on the same page so that there isn't any priority or bias given to either side.

And we're on the same page with this one as well.

[DTUCC]

hey that's a great idea, let's just sort everything out of the hall of fame someone cosiders "not the way he wants to play the game"

these are the things, off the top of my had, we would have to take care of:
- a seperate gc hall of fame, due to the missing vortex in fc part 4
- a seperate HoF for PC, since there is no lums glitch and you can't really work around that
- a seperate HoF for PS2 players, since there is the glitch on PS2 that makes you lose level points after every part that doesn't show any level percentages
- furthermore, PS2 has acces to a lockjaw in TOTL part 2 - everyone who makes use of that gets his own HoF
- regarding a new max in TOTL (which is without a doubt possible IPG-less), every platform has access to a different number of hoodflyers, so let's make that a thing

now take those HoFs, sort them by utilized glitches as well - superjumps, the razoff glitch, the ipg (the list goes on, i believe) - and in the end we have about 30 seperate hall of fames, everyone will be first in some way, and everyone is happy.

unlike what mandm thinks, i honestly cannot believe the ipg translated into this kind of discussion - it's a glitch that allows for higher scoring. big deal. not the first time we encountered one of those.

there is no doubt it has a singlehanded effect on the way the entire part 2 of TOTL is played, but it's really not like we're playing every other part of the game in order, let's be honest here. ipg doesn't have nearly as much of a gamebreaking effect people make it out to be. activate the ipg and play the rest of the level by the solution on page one - you'll get no further than 106k, i promise.

at this point, i also need to quickly adress a quote from xenon that really hits a soft spot:

I was a little unclear in my post in referring to hard labour and elbow grease, and I apologise for that. I wasn't suggesting you guys didn't put any effort into the combo at the top of the tower with the Hoodblasters and the green gem. However, when you announced that this combo was achieved by using a glitch that gave you an infinite x2, I was a little disappointed. I envisaged you playing part 1 to perfection; perhaps even improving some combos on the smaller scale, and then finishing with a grand finale at the top of the tower (of course, this was only after you declared the new maximum)

please keep envisaging us playing part 1 to perfection. the ipb really doesn't give enough points on its own. i believe that at this point you can't even imagine how many points one can get after part 1.

regarding the definition of global or local glitches: superjumps (i will just refer to them as "superjumps", since the definition should be clear at this point) allow you to get through the entire level to get a powerup and THEN play the level in order with a lockjaw - how is that not global?
the very first jump in part 1 of TOTL, where you get the lockjaw to play a combo worth a staggering 25k points. how is it not global going to the end of the part in order to get a lockjaw?
a glitch is a glitch - there is no use in arguing what glitches are morally correct to use and which aren't - it's either every glitch allowed, or none.

this is just my thought about the seperated hall of fames. i'm honestly feeling very bitter about the discussions regarding seperated hall of fames. years ago, when i asked for a fair judging system (let me repeat - i DO realize the way i asked was off) i had to deal with insults and harsh discussions regarding my opinion. now everyone suddenly likes the idea of a seperated hall of fame.

looking back, i worked on and also followed the development of several speedruns and similar achievements in video games, and rarely have there ever been such fierce discussions. super mario 64 (i assume most of you know the game) basically went from an 90 minute run and 70 collected stars to a 5 minute run with 0 collected stars.
people still do the old versions, too - 0 star runs, 1 tar runs, 16 star runs, 70 star runs, 120 star runs.
yes, they do it, since the difference is really clear. but such an approach is extremely unrealistic in regards ro R3 as we have no way to prove that a person didn't utilize a single glitch.
it's just the way competitiors are playing games. you achieve the best you can possibly do within the game's boundaries - and then you start breaking it apart through glitches (which basically every game has).
show me a single speedrun on youtube that doesn't utilize glitches. you won't find any.

if the discussions about rayman 3's Hall of Fame system continue to get out of hand like this, i'd say it's best to completely remove the HoF from rpc and use this thread to simply discuss about the possibilities people find to increase their scores in the future. if we take competition out of the picture, there's no need to argue about it anymore, so we're free to discuss everything we like to.

[Xenon]

The 'all glitch or no glitch' argument doesn't work for me. We already govern the existing HOF by outlawing things like cheat engines and MG's discovery, so we're already making subjective decisions that reflect our ideas as a community. Effectively, we've given ourselves rules, and I don't see why the same process cannot be applied to this issue.

Seeing as we're clearly not going to agree, is the answer not simply to add another column to the HOF describing the player's use of IPG? Having a multitude of HOFs is a monstrous idea - we may as well not have any at all if we're going to give individual credit for version differences and so on.

[Sajiki]

I strongly advise everybody to take a look at this video:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=OCxVte0vBhg

it shows a glitch called a glidewalk which is based on the same mechanism as the superjump or what you have called "launching glitch" is. it is by no means "local", it is largely game breaking and it is possible to use it in almost every area in the game. So when we use a superjump to skip a deck on a ship, an area in clf or to reach an hmf can in dotk it is okay but i suppose the glidewalking glitch should be banned? sorry there is nothing else than "all glitch or no glitch". i dont see how you could encourage the usage of only a few of them which are okay for the community in this hof. please accept that everyone of you used them and as dtucc said, a few years ago the discovery of such a game mechanic to extend the estimated maximum of the game would have been a success? why is it so largely relucted by people who didnt even play with it yet?