Rayman 2

[spiraldoor]

Grolem 13 is kind of dodgy. A lot of people seem to think he's too similar to Axel, but that's nonsense because the only things they have in common are a blue colour and icicle attacks. The real problem is that the fight just isn't very interesting or satisfying. I like how the original game subverts the player's expectation that the quest for the masks will culminate in a fourth boss battle. There's something wonderfully deconstructive about Rayman being handed the final mask by a clueless baby Globox as a reward for performing a selfless act. It's odd in exactly the way Umber is odd. It feels right for a Rayman game. If you're willing to put in some thought, you can also enjoy the implication that the Iron Mountains are the remains of the destroyed fourth sanctuary.

[Haruka]

The destroyed sanctuary can be a possible theory, but how would the mask be found in the Pirate Mines? Unless it fell from the sky and the pirates tried to hide it provisorily in the mines or the baby Globox simply found it on the floor and swallowed it to hide.

I agree with the combat system issues. Although I do like the inclusion of a fourth guardian, I think it was missing a real Sanctuary level/phase and a more developed combat, because the one we got in Revolution seems too long and boring due to the repetitive movements in a very limited area restructed to just flying around the screen to dodge the attacks, hence why I think a sanctuary was missing to contourn this problem. I think developers were lazy in this aspect. I don't know but I would have liked to see something like "The Sanctuary of Wind and Lightning", and see some puzzles involving the use of air currents, the helicopter and cool electrical traps. Wouldn't it be awesome?

[Hunchman801]

I liked Grolem 13, bit simplistic, I'll concede, but I liked how it played out with the infinicopter and storm clouds.

The inclusion of Grolem 13 in Rayman Revolution is one of my favourite extras of it, and something it should have originally existed. I never accepted the fact that a baby Globox from the Pirate Mines suddenly goes to Rayman with a legendary mask like a kid comes out from a field trip to the caves and carries 300 grams of pure diamond in his hands and that's the opinion of someone who grew with the PC version of Rayman 2. I just think they could have created a Sanctuary structure because the way it was disposed would be too easy for anybody who is capable to fly (Ironically it could affect the warships of the Robo-Pirates) and break the ice/crystal covering the mask pillar but it was still a good add-on that makes much more sense than the original way to get the last mask.

While I agree that the absence of a fourth sanctuary and guardian in the original Rayman 2 is unfortunate, I still find Grolem 13 to be an extremely poor addition. First, the name and description imply that he was manufactured (by the pirates maybe?), and that makes little sense as the guardians are supposed to be magical beings sent by Polokus. Then, I still think he looks too similar to Axel; there are some differences but why not try and be a bit more imaginative? And finally, the fight is really boring: it would have been much better if it could have taken place in a huge area like the battles against Axel and Foutch. It's actually quite obvious that the developers wanted to keep it very simple.

On an unrelated note, we need Rayman 2 savegames for RaySaves! Please help!

[Adsolution]

I also thought that the Grolem 13 fight was artistically lacking. The music was kind of lame, and it looked like you were floating around in the first second of the Simpsons intro.

[Master]

Hmm, put it that way, I do recall some annoying discussion where some people insisted on referring to Axel and Foutch as Grolems as well, and personally, I don't like that categorisation, nor the implication that there could be another 10 of these Guardians given the 13.

Hm, appearance-wise, well, he shares the same body shape as both Axel and Foutch anyways. I think perhaps some more effort should've been done to help him stick out more, but given that they are coloured to suit their respective sanctuaries, how well it could've been done, I'm not sure.

As for the fight itself, I'll concede that I've not played Revolution in years, my memory of it is a bit rusty, I'll admit. I do like having him there as a boss fight as opposed to the Pirate Ship segment, which was a bit meh to play in itself for me. Simplicity-wise, you're right, though personally, I think all the Guardians in the game aren't quite up to scratch compared to bosses in other games in the series, they're less about fighting head on and more holding out until a convenient weak spot or structure allows for a counter attack. Though in retrospect, given their roles as a test, it probably makes sense from a canonical point of view, being tests of speed, agility, strength and cunning.

Argh, sorry if there's some comma-splicing there, it's one grammatical error I've never truly gotten rid of.

[Adsolution]

Hm, appearance-wise, well, he shares the same body shape as both Axel and Foutch anyways. I think perhaps some more effort should've been done to help him stick out more, but given that they are coloured to suit their respective sanctuaries, how well it could've been done, I'm not sure.

I totally think he could have been white. After all, the sky isn't always blue, whereas clouds, which there were a lot of in the fight, are always white!

[Master]

Hmm, a cloudy look? A sort of ethereal visage? Considering many consider it to be the Sanctuary of Air, that makes quite a bit of sense.

[Haruka]

A white colour would work indeed. At least it seems that pretty much everybody agrees that the Grolem 13 elements were poorly designed probably due to lazyness. I think many many stuff could have been improved, like the sanctuary example I gave in the previous post I wrote.

[Hunchman801]

And give it a real name goddamnit!

[Master]

If memory serves, aren't the names of the other Guardians inspired by something related to their respective element? I vaguely recall Axel being connected to freezing or cold.

[J3SUSPWNDU]

here is the skin i made

[Master]

The 3DS of Rock and Lava, that'd make handling a bit tricky, heh.
Lighthearted quips aside, not bad at all, I think the Pirate flag at the back looks out of place with this thematic and those textures, but other than that, not too shabby at all.

[J3SUSPWNDU]

Any suggetions for what i could do with that flag?

[spiraldoor]

The destroyed sanctuary can be a possible theory, but how would the mask be found in the Pirate Mines? Unless it fell from the sky and the pirates tried to hide it provisorily in the mines or the baby Globox simply found it on the floor and swallowed it to hide.

The mines are part of the Iron Mountains in the original version, so I have no problem considering them part of the sanctuary.

I agree with the combat system issues. Although I do like the inclusion of a fourth guardian, I think it was missing a real Sanctuary level/phase and a more developed combat, because the one we got in Revolution seems too long and boring due to the repetitive movements in a very limited area restructed to just flying around the screen to dodge the attacks, hence why I think a sanctuary was missing to contourn this problem. I think developers were lazy in this aspect. I don't know but I would have liked to see something like "The Sanctuary of Wind and Lightning", and see some puzzles involving the use of air currents, the helicopter and cool electrical traps. Wouldn't it be awesome?

They made a very half-hearted attempt at this by adding the floating blue crystals that take Rayman to Grolem 13 and placing the fourth mask inside an icy pillar. They probably would have expanded this area if they'd had more time and money.

I also thought that the Grolem 13 fight was artistically lacking. The music was kind of lame, and it looked like you were floating around in the first second of the Simpsons intro.

I think the music is decent enough. I wonder if they got Éric Chevalier back to compose the additional Revolution music, got someone else fill in for him, or just used music that didn't make it into the original version.

Hmm, put it that way, I do recall some annoying discussion where some people insisted on referring to Axel and Foutch as Grolems as well, and personally, I don't like that categorisation, nor the implication that there could be another 10 of these Guardians given the 13.

I liked the ambiguity introduced by the numbering. It suggests that there's more to these bosses than meets the eye and it's fun to think about.

[Master]

Hm, to each their own, I liked the idea that each Guardian was specifically created for each mask, but I see your point. Still, "Grolem" isn't really a name I'd like for them as a species.

[Haruka]

And give it a real name goddamnit!

That too. I also find the name oddly artificial for a guardian.

[ChickenN00dleS0up]

Of course, Grolem 13 is a really lazy addition being not as creative and fun as the other bosses. But this fight fits a lot more into the Iron Mountains than the Pirate Mines (for example the sudden change to night) and the fact, that babies just give the Rain Mask, makes a lot more sense.
The fight itself is, for the time it's taking, way to simple, but it had a big potential to get a really good boss. So I kinda like Grolem.

[spiraldoor]

I don't know but I would have liked to see something like "The Sanctuary of Wind and Lightning", and see some puzzles involving the use of air currents, the helicopter and cool electrical traps. Wouldn't it be awesome?

Someone named this hypothetical level "The Sanctuary of Thunder and Iron" about six or seven years ago. It might have been Dreyfus.

[Hunchman801]

Someone named this hypothetical level "The Sanctuary of Thunder and Iron" about six or seven years ago. It might have been Dreyfus.

I used to refer to the Iron Mountains as the Sanctuary of Iron and Air, and a quick search shows that Dreyfus coincidentally came up with the same name, that's interesting.

[Haruka]

I didn't know that, but I say Wind and Lightning since I'm basing up in Grolem 13's abilities, which are linked with the environment where the fight happens too.