France

[Pirez]

The basic premise is that American find Europeans rude. You mean to tell me that you don't get pissed when someone is rude to you? At least to that particular person?

Also, the way they are generalizing the problem (people in Paris are rude, therefore all frenchies are arrogant dicks) sounds butthurt to me.

[Keane]

It was an obvious joke you unfunny French fuck cuck bitch nigger super killio self 64

[Pirez]

And that's why we're rude. Because nobody can communicate with you regardless of willingness

[Hunchman801]

There isn't much justification in shrugging them off if they're ignorant to the custom and clearly have positive intentions.

They don't have positive intentions. They seek information and hope to obtain it from me, feeling so entitled that they simply ask for it in their own language. It's at best neutral, the arrogance left aside.

You're creating an arbitrary threshold for what constitutes as necessary change. It only sounds stupid until it affects you directly - as much as I'm sure you'd love to make Europe "great" again, I don't think a gay person would feel the same way.

No idea what threshold you're talking about here. As for the example of the Belle Époque, I was simply illustrating the economic, cultural and moral decadence of the French (and Western civilization) over the last century. It doesn't mean that every change that happened since then was bad, and the decriminalization of homosexuality, to follow up on your example, certainly wasn't. It's just that there were so many more bad changes.

Which part of that was my personal opinion, the part about it being unproductive or the part about it being silly? Because the former almost universally implies the latter, and the former is not an opinion. If you think it is, please explain to me how what you just quoted isn't exactly what's happening: you ignoring their likely good intentions and being deliberately unhelpful.

Teaching math to everyone would be very productive I'm sure, so I guess not doing it is stupid? Why aren't you doing it right now? Your reasoning is flawed beyond belief.

Are you advocating for nationalism and imperialism?

I think imperialism was a necessary evil at the time. While there was obviously collateral damage, it allowed for cultural and technical prowesses that would have been impossible had we all remained part of small warring tribes. Even colonization, despite the exploitation of natural resources and human labor, brought considerable progress to the countries in question.

As for nationalism, it's a very broad term that encompasses way too many different ideologies. I am, though, advocating for patriotism. I don't buy cosmopolitanism and their “citizen of the world” bullshit. Just like I feel closer to my family than to a stranger on the street, I feel closer to my country than to the world as a whole. Cosmopolitanism is a dangerous, self-destructive doctrine that is nothing but the generalization of ingratitude to everything you owe your culture and standard of living to.

No, I don't think that's true at all about current society. Millennials are dropping religion, accepting the LGBT community, over here in the US they're pushing to end the wars and fight for universal healthcare, these are all examples of young people questioning norms and making changes for good reasons.

https://yourlogicalfallacyis.com/anecdotal

Giving me examples of changes made for good reasons doesn't disprove the fact that others are made for bad reasons. I'd go on with examples of my own but I know better than to post anecdotes that contribute nothing to the debate.

Like criticising people for teaching manners whenever they're rude.

"But Hunch, if you have tim to telk with us now, surely you have tim to educate teh people on teh street". This sentence may have been written in a style that mimicked Keane's cancerous "memes-lol". Two completely different situations, but I'm glad you bring it up.

Yah, no one but Hunch ever said anything about schooling people on "the street" you fucking niger, is raymanpc a street?

I'm sorry I didn't make that obvious enough for you.

[Adsolution]

But it occurs to me that in the world of street harassment, triggerings and what not, if people go out of their way to ask unwarranted questions right on the street with no effort put into learning the basic language (which they had time to prepare for because they planned for the trip)

Unless you have some kind of constant exposure or immense drive, learning another language, even on a basic level is very difficult, learning specific phrases doesn't really help in many circumstances, and especially with a slurred language like French, fluent oral communication/comprehension is immensely difficult without a lot of practice. And before anyone turns this around to say that trying to speak English with a French person is asking the same of them, consider that it's not usually unreasonable to assume a lot of non-English Western Europeans do have some basic knowledge of English, as not only is it commonly taught in schools, the Internet and the vast majority of Western media is in English, and it ends up getting circulated throughout many different cultures. Most importantly, because of that, you already have exposure to it at a younger age.

I'm not saying one shouldn't put any effort into learning what they can of French before going to France, but you simply can't expect the results to be very good, if resultant at all. That's not arrogance, that's just a fact you can't ignore regarding how we learn language. I would argue that expecting that of tourists is a more accurate example of arrogance, as it prioritises pride in one's own "personal" language over the most practical way to communicate - chances are that the French person you're trying to speak French to speaks better English than you do French. You could say it's the effort that counts, but also bare in mind that half the time you just end up embarrassing yourself when the person you're speaking to rolls their eyes and laughs at your incoherent trainwreck of a sentence and just responds to you in English, and I don't think it's arrogant to not be confident in something you lack the ability to do very well. That, and the fact you'll likely be looking for an English answer, which only reinforces the notion that this cultural expectation for tourists know some French serves no no real purpose most of the time other than to be prideful.

It's these mixed signals and circumstances that make turning a cold shoulder by default to tourists trying to speak with you in English a bit autistic.

They don't have positive intentions. They seek information and hope to obtain it from me, feeling so entitled that they simply ask for it in their own language. It's at best neutral, the arrogance left aside.

When did "positive" start translating to "altruistic"? You (hopefully) get to feel good about taking five seconds to help someone, and they feel good and thank you in return because you've helped them. Positive intentions don't imply compensation, especially if they don't really have any way of compensating you aside from trying to be as polite and kind as they can be in the moment, in an attempt to create a mutually positive social interaction.

No idea what threshold you're talking about here.

Eliminating the need for "please/thank you" versus the decriminalisation of homosexuality, for example. They're two massive extremes, but still technically subjective in their necessity.

Teaching math to everyone would be very productive I'm sure, so I guess not doing it is stupid? Why aren't you doing it right now? Your reasoning is flawed beyond belief.

Lol juat? Is that supposed to be a comparison to teaching people manners, or telling them where the bathroom is? I'm assuming the latter given that earlier you affirmed they're seeking information from you, in which case the teaching math comparison is hilariously insane. People aren't only either 100% selfish or 100% selfless, we obviously have a threshold for how much we're willing to help someone, and I don't know if I've ever met anyone whose threshold is so low they can't bear to answer a basic question once a month, or however long the interval between foreigners walking up and asking you a basic question in English is.

[Keane]

They don't have positive intentions. They seek information and hope to obtain it from me, feeling so entitled that they simply ask for it in their own language. It's at best neutral, the arrogance left aside.

No!

As for nationalism, it's a very broad term that encompasses way too many different ideologies. I am, though, advocating for patriotism. I don't buy cosmopolitanism and their “citizen of the world” bullshit. Just like I feel closer to my family than to a stranger on the street, I feel closer to my country than to the world as a whole. Cosmopolitanism is a dangerous, self-destructive doctrine that is nothing but the generalization of ingratitude to everything you owe your culture and standard of living to.

Well, what is your definition of patriotism? I don't take issue with it by default, I think it's harmless to have some loyalty to the group you identify with but on a national, country level it depends on the worldview you have. People who lean into totalitarianism and support their government usually identify that with their culture, and as a result deem disagreement with that leadership as opposition - by a Trump supporter's definition my criticisms of the US's foreign affairs or immigration policy are anti-American because in their minds that equates to weakening the country and not favouring America, like joining someone in an argument against your friend or family member.

Or for a real example, I believe kids should be raised bilingually which people on your side of the argument disagree with feeling it corrodes a country's culture and sense of self. You could by patriot logic define that as me being against the values of my country's (Netherlands) society, but what if I believe those values are doing more harm than good and the Netherlands will actually be improved by it? That can be patriotism by another person's definition. This is the problem I tend to take with patriotism, that it's almost always interpreted as "if you're against the status-quo, you're against the country", when no, we all base our agendas off things we think will make the wurlh a bettehre place to live, right?

It's no surprise then that Trump, or any leader trying to justify questionable actions, likes to pander to the totalitarian sense of patriotism, and I think it's deeply exploitable: making kids stand up to "pledge allegiance" to a state that they're too young to even really understand, creating symbolic flags and anthems to make people attached to their pride, or spreading patriot propaganda when we're starting a war ("You're either with us or against us") are obvious attempts to indoctrinate people in that definition of patriotism and make them obedient to an agenda under the guise of backing their team. It encourages people to value things based not on if they're actually correct but on whether the country's identity applies to it.

My defintion of patriotism is to be an altruist and uphold the good principles of society, to go "hey, I don't want people in my country to die and shit." I think the most patriotic thing anyone can do is go against their society or government when it's wrong, with the intention to make it right. And that raises the question if patriotism is even really needed at all, because I feel altruistic for anyone from anywhere: I want Canadian, French or Congo Bongo people to be off just as well as the people I'm personally closer to.

Giving me examples of changes made for good reasons doesn't disprove the fact that others are made for bad reasons.

You should've just started with this in the first place

I was simply illustrating the economic, cultural and moral decadence of the French (and Western civilization) over the last century. It doesn't mean that every change that happened since then was bad, and the decriminalization of homosexuality, to follow up on your example, certainly wasn't. It's just that there were so many more bad changes.

Because your argument came across like a very generalised statement and your example of a superior society did actually oppose changes of that form. I get where you're coming from now.

I'd go on with examples of my own but I know better than to post anecdotes that contribute nothing to the debate.

INNNN A DRUUUNKEN PUNSHUP AT A WEEEDING EYEAAHHEHH

[Adsolution]

I don't see how patriotism by definition is important at all, because the average individual doesn't have the power for their patriotism to mean anything unless they're a part of a union and love their job - it's not like you can vote for someone outside of your country. Of course, a society will better function when all of its components work in unison, but that's largely determined by how the government treats its people.

Cosmopolitanism is a dangerous, self-destructive doctrine

I love Vancouver, but I don't consider myself necessarily loyal to the country, or the city, nor do I really consider myself a "Canadian" barring my citizenship (I wasn't born here, but I have lived here most of my life). That, and the fact that there are so many wildly different cultures living across the street from one another here that I don't even really have a good point of reference for my own. I don't see how this is dangerous or self-destructive. In fact, it's taught us to not be whiny fags about our individual customs when interacting with one another, especially the cryptic, nonsensical ones.

that is nothing but the generalization of ingratitude to everything you owe your culture and standard of living to.

I don't see how you owe your country anything more than to abide by the law. If you're working, you're devoting at least half of your day every day to giving to your country, and it pays you in return, leaving you on equal ground. Sure, there are benefits depending on where you are, but that's sort of a grey area when we consider that virtually every government lies to and extorts its people to varying degrees to further their own personal wealth or agenda, and that most "free" services obviously come out of your own pocket, not the government's. Respect needs to be earned and cannot be demanded, and the fact that we don't live in the jungle anymore isn't a call for patriotism when it was primarily the efforts of the scientists and engineers all over the world that founded the technology our societies are now built on.

Some people move from country to country, or from foster family to foster family. What are they? Are they just supposed to pick one to be loyal to? What if they feel that their family or the officials representing their country have abused them?

And that raises the question if patriotism is even really needed at all, because I feel altruistic for anyone from anywhere: I want Canadian, French or Congo Bongo people to be off just as well as the people I'm personally closer to.

Yeas I agree 0920%, Igtario Flannusé . i won't vote for something that positively impacts us if it has a noticeable negative impact on others, and i would be willing to accepy my fate and take a slight eco hit if it means saving 9 million life in major crisis

[Keane]

i just played a round of merio kart against two people called I❤FRANCE and I'm French

[Pirez]

Your daily reminder that France is the best and if you don't think so you're no better than a slovak.

[PluMGMK]

Never been to France, but I should probably go someday. After all, I've put a lot of effort into learning the language

[Rsandee]

[Cairnie]

As of today I have only been to France, or Disneyland Paris, once and haven't been back since and it was...an experience lol.

[PluMGMK]

Actually around RD 2017, a guy came into a local pub with very little English, trying to look for directions, and he seemed to speak French. My parents encouraged me to go over and act as interpreter, but I froze. I don't know why. Because of that, I wasn't able to help, and I probably could have

EDIT: Eventually he did find what he was looking for, so I don't feel that guilty. But I could have made it smoother, but I just… didn't…

[Rsandee]

Actually around RD 2017, a guy came into a local pub with very little English, trying to look for directions, and he seemed to speak French. My parents encouraged me to go over and act as interpreter, but I froze. I don't know why. Because of that, I wasn't able to help, and I probably could have

Yeah this is the difficult thing about learning a language. If you're shy you become embarassed so easily and you feel so much pressure when the opportunity arises

[Cairnie]

Oh I absolutely felt that trying to speak French in France, it's like I tried my best when ordering train tickets, food and stuff but somehow even when I thought I did something right it felt wrong and at Disneyland they'd end up switching to English anyways.

My whole experience in that area was a mixed bag, there were things I liked, things I didn't like and things I thought were incredibly odd.

[Rsandee]

What's worse is that there usually are these people that want to shame you for speaking their language more poorly than a native, which just straight up pisses me off.

[PluMGMK]

Yeah, I remember hearing that from teachers who brought students on continental school tours. They'd appreciate your effort to speak French, but they'd just switch to English anyway

I dunno, I remember recording a clip for the abandoned Record-ed Day project, and Lovy said I was one of the easiest-to-understand native-Anglophone French speakers he'd ever heard

[DaveRattlehead]

I read the previous posts while I was watching the football match. It was an interesting discussion, and I gotta say I somehow understand what hunch was explaining.

The only time I visited France was last year, in July. I went to Lyon for almost an entire week for work reasons. Of course, my little knowledge of French wasn't enough to stablish a fluent conversation, and of course it was never going to be enough if I wanted to explain something a bit more complex. But you know, it's just a matter of respect. The times where the French were rude were when my workmates were so dumb that they thought we could have dinner at the same hour that we do in Spain (i.e., we were almost always fucking late). But even that, we always managed to have dinner out there. They never said a single bad word when I asked for something simple in a terrible French, and they understood if I switched to English because I couldn't explain myself in French. They didn't even complain if I went to a bar and asked (desperately) if I could use the toilet (I was told they'd never allowed me to do so outside Spain; no matter the place, I normally buy a bottle of water if I do that, but they really insisted it wasn't necessary at all).

This ain't about saying the French are the best people in Europe. They have a different philosophy, but it's their culture and I have to adapt to them. I tried my best, they understood and I was treated decently, that's how it is. And I expect the same when someone comes to Spain!

[Pirez]

Bro!!!
I live in Lyon, why didn't you say anything?

[DaveRattlehead]

I think I did, but you weren't around!