Rayman Legends

[Dart]

And if you want to fix Rayman 1's cheap and unfair difficulty for inexperienced gamers, you'd actually have to take a lot of cues from Origins/Legends anyway (infinite lives, clear hit boxes, having all powers from the beginning like in Legends, better sense of momentum)

I dont really like the idea of having all your powers immediately. it feels a tad more entertaining to collect them in progression than to have everything at once.

[sonicbrawler182]

And if you want to fix Rayman 1's cheap and unfair difficulty for inexperienced gamers, you'd actually have to take a lot of cues from Origins/Legends anyway (infinite lives, clear hit boxes, having all powers from the beginning like in Legends, better sense of momentum)

I dont really like the idea of having all your powers immediately. it feels a tad more entertaining to collect them in progression than to have everything at once.

Not with the way Rayman 1 is designed. It should of had all of them available from the beginning, especially since stuff like the helicopter hair is a signature move. It should be there from the beginning. It's like playing Sonic 2 and only getting the Spin Dash halfway through.

[OCG]

When Rayman 1 was made, it was still not decided that helicopter hair will be a signature move. When remaking a old game. Things like powerups should not be changed. And if Sonic games had powerup system, I would not mind if I got Spin Dash halfway through to be honest. In video games, I like to learn stuff how I progress, but I expect sequel to keep all the stuff I learned from previous game. Since this is the case of remake, you should earn powers.

[SegaNintendoUbisoft]

How about having all the powers from the get-go be apart of the easy mode?

[OCG]

I would rather have some other things changed in level design for easy mode than having all powers but thats just me.

[Master]

Hm, considering that having all power-ups eliminates the need to backtrack through some rather stressful segments again, I'd be game for it.
However, I do believe giving powers one at a time does have its place, for instance, the Metroidvania concept thrives on using abilities to discover more abilities and power-ups, and so on, fitting together nicely. It fits hand in hand with the exploration aspect, as you can progress and venture further and further in a progressive way with each new power.

[jurebj]

It would be nice to have all the powers from rayman origins and get some new ones in the legends.

[Rayrobi]

By coherency, I mean the game mechanics. Each game is completely different. This is not inherently a bad thing, but the problem was that none of the styles of gameplay got a chance to be refined (each of them had problems). I like the idea of the RO style being given a chance to be refined/offer more.
But even in story aspects, the first three are not that coherent. Rayman 3 kept Rayman, Globox, and Murfy, but besides one or two cameos, nothing else was really kept. It's as much of a reboot as Rayman 2 was following Rayman 1.
Also, I never said Rayman 1-3 were bad games. Rayman 1 is extremely flawed, though.

You have the point.

Actually, the new thing that Murfy brought was asymmetrical multiplayer - something that Origins Vita DID NOT DO. Understand the point of Murfy's addition before you claim he was not a new feature.

And I know you said not to count Back To Origins, but that's damage controlling - Legends DOES have Moskito and Tricky Treasure levels. They are there, playable, on the game disc. You can't go ignoring that to "help" your point.

The way Murfy controls is not anything new, though you have the point on the multiplayer it brought to the game. That kind of Multiplayer is present only on Wii U however, and on PSVita in case you have to of them. And the reason why i ignored Moskito and Tricky treasures was because Legends mainly copied 60% of Origins into itself, and that's where are the Moskito and Tricky Treasure levels. The moskito and tricky treasure levels are just COPIES of an already made game with elements from this game, plus Back to Origins is basically Origins, the other worlds are Legends and in the Legends part, there are NO such levels.

Yeah, feels like SUCH a compelling story in Origins. (...) The story is minimal in both games. Plus, saving Nymphs and Kings is no different to saving Teensies.

It is indeed different. The aim of the games ( how i think ) and whether they are part of the story or not:

In Origins
Collect Lums - To get Electoons
Free Electoons ( part of the story ( Electoon levels, go through them to reach new worlds )-> open new worlds and tricky treasure levels
Free Nymphs ( part of the story )
Defeat Bosses ( part of the story in both )
Tricky Treasures to get Skull Teeth -> get into LotLD ( LotLD is part of the story, final boss fight is here )
Time Trials - free more Electoons and get speed trophies

In Legends ( in the same order )
Collect Lums -> unlock Heroes
Free Teensies ( NOT part of the story ) -> open new worlds
Free Princesses ( NOT part of the story again ) indirectly, none of them actually appear in any level - unlocked by Teensies
Defeat Bosses plus Dark Teensies ( part of the story in both )
No tricky Treasures, free teensies to unlock LotLD ( LotLD is NOT part of the story, no boss fight or final level )
Invasions - Get more teensies

Rayman Origins may not have a complex or great story, but as you can see from these five points, it still had more of a story than Legends does. These are the most important ones though.

Are you kidding me? The Legends worlds are all different. Structured the same, yes. But so were the Origins worlds (a few levels, one moskito level, and a tricky treasure in each world). As I said before, the Legends worlds are basically darker versions of Origins worlds (I will post screenshots that prove this sometime in the future. I can't right now, due to a Parental Control issue on my Wii U). This gives a sense of world building, that a third game could do more with.

At least there was a variety in the order of the levels.
In the first 4 worlds, it starts off with the nymphs, then there are normal levels , then the Electoons world and a moskito.
World 5 has first a nymph, then normal levels, then an Electoon world and endawith a boss fight
Worlds 6-9 start with normal levels, continue with a moskito level, then normal levels again and a boss fight.
World 10 starts with a moskito level, continues with normal levels, then ends with a chase after the Magician.

WHILE

Rayman Legends' world are MOSTLY the same, they have 3-4 normal levels, then you chase after the Magician copy, then he summons monsters, then you have a boss fight, and a musical level. Inbetween the levels there are the princess rescues, and that's it. You can apply this to any Legends world except the last one, which is a bonus world, that's the only different in the Legends worlds.

Until you prove that I will think Legends has more fun and versatile physics tweaks. You can't just go saying "oh yeah, I noticed more bugs in this game", and not elaborate.

I can tell you many examples.

The last rank is optional. The Challenge Mode was not made for completionists, it was made for competitive players.

Players who want to reach the last awesomeness rank sure find it boring to have the same challenges coming back after weeks or months, because the 13 constantly repeating game modes. I know you played Legends a lot, but did you think about that people - who don't like the game as much as the biggest fans but want to get to the last rank - would get sick of the game if they need to get 1500 point by 5-10 points playing the same 13 challenges?

Don't even TRY to say Jungle Run and Fiesta Run are "sequels" to Origins/Legends.

Seriously: When the fuck did i say that Jungle Run and Fiesta run are SEQUELS?

Yeah I did. I said "you all played Rayman 1 to death", referring specifically to the people saying there should be a Rayman 1 HD as opposed to a new UbiArt game, within this topic. Because the SPECIFIC people I was referring to HAVE played the game to death. Some have even done walkthroughs on YouTube.

Why do you even care about these people? They might want a remake because they still find the game fun and entertaining.

Well, people are certainly saying it would be a better step than a new 2D game like Legends.

It would not be the "next step" in the franchise, only a HD remaster.

And if you want to fix Rayman 1's cheap and unfair difficulty for inexperienced gamers, you'd actually have to take a lot of cues from Origins/Legends anyway (infinite lives, clear hit boxes, having all powers from the beginning like in Legends, better sense of momentum). But when I made those VERY suggestions on this VERY forum, with the VERY people asking for Rayman 1 HD in this topic, I was told "that would be tampering too much with the original game". Knowing how people are with classic games, Ubisoft would never be able to please people with a Rayman 1 HD remaster. They could easily please many with a new RO style game, though.

Doing those things together would indeed be too much tampering with the game, for example it does not have to be infinite lives like in Legends, the health system there has actually been done very poorly, basically if you get hit, you get back to the last checkpoint, two if you have a heart. This sometimes seems a bit hard when there are only 1-3 checkpoints in a level, e.g Moskito levels. I thought a health bar or a number of health points would be good enough, if you lose all your health, you get back to the beginning of the area, but you are not limited on lives ( this is just an idea ). Having all powers from the beginning is not a good idea though, because half of the game was about the retrieve your powers ( it was also based on the story ( just think: You lost your powers because the Great Protoon was stolen, but now you have all your powers in the remake? ) I don't want to talk about this more here, else this discussion will get really long.

Again, Ubisoft would not be able to please people with that kind of tall order for a remake.
HD remasters are given to games that are objectively really good, because all that needs to be improved are the graphics. Rayman 1 would require much more than that.
My only experience with Rayman 3 is with the HD remaster. I've never played the original (and see no need to). I didn't encounter any glitches. And the original game must of HAVE ( sorry, this mistake annoyed me ) been quite solid, because so was the HD remaster. That backs up my previous point - HD remasters are for games that don't need a huge load of changes.

That's why i mostly call it a remake and not a HD remaster.

I accept that people like Rayman 1 more than Origins/Legends just fine, but the idea that a HD remake of Rayman 1 would be better for the franchise than a finale game for the RO style is objectively wrong, and I've already proven that. As I initially said, you guys are just assuming that a Legends sequel would add nothing new, even though Legends added tons that Origins didn't have.

We're assuming that because we get used to these new things, they are not as groundbreaking as Origins was to the franchise, for example.

If you have a greedy mindset of "I MUST HAVE EVERY SKIN EVEN THOUGH I WON'T PLAY THE GAME AFTER I GET THE FINAL ONE", that's your fault, not the developers).

It was not my mindset at all. But as soon as the same challenges came one after another, and i still did not have the last skin and last rank, i soon started to get bored, i'm sure that's why many people thought they won't play the game as soon as they reach Level 11th or unlock Rayomz.

[jurebj]

Rayman Origins looks like a really happy game to me but in legends I dont feel that happiness.
It's still a great game.

[sonicbrawler182]

The way Murfy controls is not anything new, though you have the point on the multiplayer it brought to the game. That kind of Multiplayer is present only on Wii U however, and on PSVita in case you have to of them. And the reason why i ignored Moskito and Tricky treasures was because Legends mainly copied 60% of Origins into itself, and that's where are the Moskito and Tricky Treasure levels. The moskito and tricky treasure levels are just COPIES of an already made game with elements from this game, plus Back to Origins is basically Origins, the other worlds are Legends and in the Legends part, there are NO such levels.

I never claimed that Murfy's controls were new. He wasn't playable in Origins, and Origins didn't have the asymmetrical multiplayer mechanic. That's what I meant.

Legends doesn't have new Moskito levels or Tricky Treasures because you can't do much with those levels past what was done in Origins. The Invasion and Musical levels are the replacement "gimmick levels". The Moskito and Tricky Treasures were a bonus as part of Back to Origins.

In Origins
Collect Lums - To get Electoons
Free Electoons ( part of the story ( Electoon levels, go through them to reach new worlds )-> open new worlds and tricky treasure levels
Free Nymphs ( part of the story )
Defeat Bosses ( part of the story in both )
Tricky Treasures to get Skull Teeth -> get into LotLD ( LotLD is part of the story, final boss fight is here )
Time Trials - free more Electoons and get speed trophies

In Legends ( in the same order )
Collect Lums -> unlock Heroes
Free Teensies ( NOT part of the story ) -> open new worlds
Free Princesses ( NOT part of the story again ) indirectly, none of them actually appear in any level - unlocked by Teensies
Defeat Bosses plus Dark Teensies ( part of the story in both )
No tricky Treasures, free teensies to unlock LotLD ( LotLD is NOT part of the story, no boss fight or final level )
Invasions - Get more teensies

Rayman Origins may not have a complex or great story, but as you can see from these five points, it still had more of a story than Legends does. These are the most important ones though.

The Origins stuff you listed (much like Legends), are not exactly a satisfying story. They're just your generic platform game McGuffins. I don't exactly feel like a story is being told. I don't end up freeing Nymphs and Electoons because I care about them as some developed character, but because they unlock shit in the game. This is literally no different to my motivation for freeing the Teensies in Legends. And if you want to be technical about it, the Teensies ARE part of the story - the opening cinematic in Legends outright shows the Teensies being beat up and terrorised, and then locked up. Murfy then explains to Rayman what's happening, and so Rayman sets off on his journey. Saving the Teensies and defeating the Magician are Rayman's goals in this game.

And this is all redundant, because story has never even been the driving force behind Rayman games. Even in Rayman 2, the plot isn't very deep at all. They're just great, artsy platforming games.

At least there was a variety in the order of the levels.
In the first 4 worlds, it starts off with the nymphs, then there are normal levels , then the Electoons world and a moskito.
World 5 has first a nymph, then normal levels, then an Electoon world and endawith a boss fight
Worlds 6-9 start with normal levels, continue with a moskito level, then normal levels again and a boss fight.
World 10 starts with a moskito level, continues with normal levels, then ends with a chase after the Magician.

WHILE

Rayman Legends' world are MOSTLY the same, they have 3-4 normal levels, then you chase after the Magician copy, then he summons monsters, then you have a boss fight, and a musical level. Inbetween the levels there are the princess rescues, and that's it. You can apply this to any Legends world except the last one, which is a bonus world, that's the only different in the Legends worlds.

Why is the structure of the game so important all of a sudden? Oh yeah, variation on how each world is structured, the most asked for feature in every platformer, amirite?
No, what's important is the variety between each individual level - Legends flattens Origins in that regard.
Not to mention that a coherent world structure is often seen as a good thing in platformers, so if anything, Legends pulls world structure off in a better fashion than Origins' hap hazard, yet linear structure.

Players who want to reach the last awesomeness rank sure find it boring to have the same challenges coming back after weeks or months, because the 13 constantly repeating game modes. I know you played Legends a lot, but did you think about that people - who don't like the game as much as the biggest fans but want to get to the last rank - would get sick of the game if they need to get 1500 point by 5-10 points playing the same 13 challenges?

First of all, 13 challenge objectives is actually quite a lot, considering how the generation of challenges works.
And that's completely contradictory - why would people care to get the last costume and rank if they weren't even the biggest fan of a game? I know I only 100% games I actually like, in most cases.
And as I've said, the rate at which you achieve knew ranks is a test of skill and determination. The 1,000,000 Lum prize is just a bonus for players who have enough skill OR determination. Players with enough skill get the prize quickly. Those who don't have to rely on determination.
And it's not like you are forced to do this. Getting Rayomz is not mandatory, at all. You can just play through the main game, and that can be it, if that's all you came for. It's not like Rayomz is a Rayman equivalant to Super Sonic - he doesn't change the gameplay.

Seriously: When the fuck did i say that Jungle Run and Fiesta run are SEQUELS?

You implied it by saying:

Basically, it has been 3 2D games from this generation and there is going to be a fourth one soon ( Fiesta Run ) and both Jungle Run and Fiesta Run didn't show or going to show anything new, even though, as you say, Rayman has many new things to offer. If there really are, why did not they show us yet?

You spoke of Jungle Run and Fiesta Run as if they are comparable to Origins and Legends, as if they should be evolving and "doing something new" that the others don't. Mobile gaming and console gaming just aren't comparable.

Why do you even care about these people? They might want a remake because they still find the game fun and entertaining.

I don't have a problem with "I want a Rayman 1 HD remake".
I do have a problem with "I want a Rayman 1 HD remake before getting a sequel to Legends", because it's totally unrealistic to ask for this.

It would not be the "next step" in the franchise, only a HD remaster.

"I want a Rayman 1 HD remake before getting a sequel to Legends"
Sounds like a next step to me.

We're assuming that because we get used to these new things, they are not as groundbreaking as Origins was to the franchise, for example.

Sonic Colours had the EXACT same base gameplay as Sonic Unleashed's daytime stages.
It still blew me away with the addition of Wisp powers.
Modern Sonic in Sonic Generations also had the same playstyle as Colours and daytime Unleashed. But it blew me away with it's AMAZINGLY open-ended level design.
You don't have to completely re-invent the wheel to blow people away.

It was not my mindset at all. But as soon as the same challenges came one after another, and i still did not have the last skin and last rank, i soon started to get bored, i'm sure that's why many people thought they won't play the game as soon as they reach Level 11th or unlock Rayomz.

Again, this is not a flaw in the game - once you've saved all of the Teensies, and maybe tried out the Challenges and Kung Foot, you've experienced everything Rayman Legends has to offer. You have every reason to put the game away to collect dust at that point. You have no reason to complain about Rayomz being a bit of a grind. He's only there for those who like the game enough to get him. Nobody should bother going for him if they don't even want to play the Challenges anymore. That's your choice. There is no sense in getting annoyed at a developer over your own choice (and I'm not speaking to you specifically here - I just mean this in general, for anyone).

[Haruka]

Aye. I really doubt the silly nature of RO/RL would still be equally charming in a third game. I already didn't like it as much in RL. Don't get me wrong, it's original an creative, but I feel that things that have a certain kind of humour just can't stay amusing forever. When Rabbids TV Party came out I was beyond tired of jokes about toilet paper and "BWAAAH". And then to think that they still make those jokes.

I personally think that RL fixed many things that were missing/wrong in RO, but still, like you said, this kind of premise of crazyness can't last forever as an enjoyable thing. We can see what happened with the Rabbids, precisely with TV Party. I enjoyed RL more than RO, but having a third game with the same style? No thanks.

I would rather see a R1HD remake now rather than a 3rd RO-alike game.

What's the point? you have played that game like 3000 times at this point.

Then try to ask Gameloft why they did a EWJHD and ask Just Add Water why they are doing a Oddworld: Abe's Oddysee HD. Like if the fact I've played Rayman 1 more than 10 times was an issue.

When I said this, it wasn't the real desire too, but if I were to choose for a third RO-styled game or a R1 remake with HD media, then I would prefer to pick the least.

[sonicbrawler182]

Oddworld was a cult classic, it deserves a HD treatment way more than Rayman 1 does (as Rayman 1 was more widely bought so people have played it, but it hasn't aged well. Oddworld is a timeless game, way ahead of it's time).

[Haruka]

Rayman 1, an aged game? Only if we are talking about the art itself, that doesn't quite fit now to the current market, because for everything else I think it is still as enjoyable as 13 years ago.

[Bradandez]

Brawler, you do make some good points.

[SegaNintendoUbisoft]

Just got Rayomz, I guess I'm done with Legends now.

[Keane]

The whole "Back to Origins" thing is such a cheap excuse for filler content. I'm not sure if I'm even gonna play it when I can finally start Legends. Why not add an awesome Kung Foot online mode instead?

Rayman 1 aged? A bit, certainly. But not at all like many games that were released around the same time. I don't feel like I'm playing an old game when I play it.

[Zikken]

Its worth playing the Back To Origins if you want to see what has changed because some stuff aren't the same at all just saying. But I would have loved an online mode for that, its already a ton of fun with someone else in local, Imagine online with a tiny reward for winning or something. They could have even done some contest or something of the kind with it, they missed their chance.

Rayman 1 doesn't really look like its old.The pixel art in it is amazing and looks way better than most games that use pixels nowadays. Maybe its mechanic is kinda old though.

[Adsolution]

Well, Rayman 1 certainly does show some age mechanically, but not all that much in comparison to some other games.

And I know you said not to count Back To Origins, but that's damage controlling - Legends DOES have Moskito and Tricky Treasure levels. They are there, playable, on the game disc. You can't go ignoring that to "help" your point.

Yes, you can, as those were created in Origins, for Origins. Back To Origins is basically Origins with a few entity replacements, and might as well be an entirely separate game the way I see it.

Also, it's not "damage control" (you need to stop using that word so often, given how you've never once successfully pointed out actual 'damage control'). There's no clear way to objectify whether Back To Origins really can be considered one-hundred percent Rayman Legends (like you claim it to be, and like I claim it not to be), so accusing people of faulty arguments over something based on interpretation is really quite silly.

Why is the structure of the game so important all of a sudden? Oh yeah, variation on how each world is structured, the most asked for feature in every platformer, amirite?
No, what's important is the variety between each individual level - Legends flattens Origins in that regard.

Again, this is entirely based on what you want out of a game. I strive for both on an equal level, and as it so happens, each one (Origins & Legends) had what the other one lacked. I know you fawn over mechanics #1 ftw leet, but presentation and structure can matter just as much.

Not to mention that a coherent world structure is often seen as a good thing in platformers, so if anything, Legends pulls world structure off in a better fashion than Origins' hap hazard, yet linear structure.

Are you sure you didn't get that backward? Legends has little to no world structure, you can go and alternate playing between different worlds whenever you want. Legends' world structure is fully incoherent because that's how it's supposed to be. How can that even be compared to a linear game founded upon world-progression structure like Origins? Unless I'm misunderstanding what you mean by 'world structure', I really don't see what you can do to usefully compare the two.


Aside from the things that I quoted, I agree with your post.

[Keane]

Its worth playing the Back To Origins if you want to see what has changed because some stuff aren't the same at all just saying. But I would have loved an online mode for that, its already a ton of fun with someone else in local, Imagine online with a tiny reward for winning or something. They could have even done some contest or something of the kind with it, they missed their chance.

Oh. Well, better give it a shot before judging it then.

Rayman 1 doesn't really look like its old.The pixel art in it is amazing and looks way better than most games that use pixels nowadays. Maybe its mechanic is kinda old though.

Not one bit. Rayman 1 is very appealing to look at. The mechanics are indeed the problem. Things like the sliding platforms in Band Land would never be in a modern day game. Though I don't mind it at all.

[Zikken]

Oh. Well, better give it a shot before judging it then.

I looked pretty, yes you should. Watch out for the blue things with pincer, they are big as hell now.

Not one bit. Rayman 1 is very appealing to look at. The mechanics are indeed the problem. Things like the sliding platforms in Band Land would never be in a modern day game. Though I don't mind it at all.

Sliding up the platform with almost no speed. Then dying in the evil spiky notes because I was going too fast to know where I was going.