Rayman Legends

[Haruka]

Carrying barrels is boring.

This got fixed in Rayman Revolution.

[Sabertooth]

He can criticize Rayman 2 all he wants, but I lost all respect for Sergio once he did that shitty Game Theory joke. It's not even applicable in this case.

[anaphasiia]

The problem I have with Sonic games is that it's set in a world that wants to be taken way too seriously, like, involving the goverment, cops, the death of a child named Maria, guns.

None of those ideas sound awful, their execution just was.

Ok, let's be frank here. It's a 3d platformer from a fairly experimental era. Of course it hasn't aged well.

But what are you comparing to? There isn't any game you can point to and say "this did what Rayman 2 did, but better", because there hasn't been any 3D platformer with gameplay, level design or mechanics in direct vain of Rayman 2's.

The camera sometimes get into weird angles

When? This basically never happens to me. It happens as much as in any other game, and let's be honest: Rayman 2's camera system is very complex and developed, and it works very well regardless if it's in an open area or if it's in a tight, bendy maze of passageways, to the point you almost never have to manually rotate it. Most modern games have almost nonexistent camera systems and make you move it yourself.

I think Rayman 2 has one of the best cameras in any game I've played.

the pace sometimes gets incredibly slow and clunky.

I can only think of times when you have to carry objects, which is a real criticism, but still a small one. What other parts of the game are "slow and clunky"?

Those areas where you have to grab to a wall? totally tedious, slow,

You climb almost the same speed you run. What are you talking about?

and if you make a little mistake, prepare to do it all over again.

Are you referring to a particular part in the game (even though I can't think of any even slightly "long" climbing segments)? A single mistake causing failure doesn't cover 95% of the climbing segments, and is not exclusive to climbing, or Rayman 2 itself.

And by far the worst design choice: No matter how much momentum you get by running, it is all entirely killed once you turn on the helicopter. Yeah, no matter how much you run, if you jump and turn on the helicopter, you immediately sink slowly. It's completely insane that in this area...

This is clearly a design choice. Realistic velocity preservation does not mean the game is somehow better. Can you explain to me why you think it does?

...It's easier to jump directly into the nenuphars rather than carefully use the helicopter to land safely.

I can't agree less, I don't know anyone (aside from you) who thinks using the helicopter is more dangerous. It's a very simple mechanic, it slows your descent and gives you more control. How does that make it harder?

Seriously, if you use the helicopter, your jumps won't matter, you'll sink into the water.

What?

This is a think that I'm glad they fixed in Rayman 3

What are you talking about? Yes, in Rayman 3 you helicopter the same speed as your previous aerial movement. But did you not notice that as soon as you jump in Rayman 3, you lose a lot of velocity? In Rayman 2 you jump the same speed as you run. Rayman 3 is a much slower game than Rayman 2.

and yes, even Rayman Origins has way better momentum.

Obviously. They designed Origins with momentum as a core mechanic, which it wasn't in Rayman 1, 2 and 3, which is why Origins is so vastly different in every way.

[Bradandez]

God damnit, Sergio. If there's anything I hate a lot, it's fucking Game Theory.

[sergiomonty]

Whoops! Silly me!

*goofy music plays along with canned laughs*

By the way, anaphasiia, you could just sum up your entire breakdown with, you know, a friendly "I disagree". I don't know, I don't really like wasting people's time.

What?

All right, here you go...



I meant that. It was already fixed in Rayman 3, so it's not worth crying over spilled milk

I also expect the "WTF, that doesn't happen!" as a response, so in anticipation I'll answer: I don't know man, I played R2 four times already, and I feel this problem, I've been playing 3d platformers where the player has the ability to float for a while (Like Conker) and this doesn't regularly happen to me. Maybe my depiction is exaggerated, but when I play Rayman 2, something about the propeller feels... off.

It's a problem that I don't see at all with Rayman 3, Origins or Legends, but with Rayman 2 it's just there. It's not a big deal, though, since most of the time the platforms are chunky enough to not make it a problem, but yeah, there are some minor areas where that problem seems to happen. That's just me, I guess.

[NyaNyaLily]

WTF, that does happen!

[sergiomonty]

WTF, that does happen!

Well. That was unexpected.

[Bradandez]

I don't feel that's a problem with Rayman 2, but with Rayman 1. The limited time for the helicopter hair and Rayman feeling like a damn boulder makes for some untimely deaths.

[Sabertooth]

I see where you're coming from Sergio, and I agree. The Helicopter kinda sucks in R2.

[anaphasiia]

By the way, anaphasiia, you could just sum up your entire breakdown with, you know, a friendly "I disagree". I don't know, I don't really like wasting people's time.

No, many of your accusations against the game are simply false or impossibly contorted. I was pointing that out. It's not really an opinion.

I meant that.

I see what you mean, but this is how every hover mechanic in that era worked in every game, even in many before Rayman 2. It's not about having realistic momentum, it was an established idea that was being used once more (you activate the helicopter when you have a clear trajectory, not before in "anticipation"). It's a key mechanic in "technical" platforming, which you still see very often today in platformers, mostly indie ones. You could make similar criticisms to other unrealistic parts of video games that work not because they're realistic, but because they are good mechanics that are flexible and have many applications.

The reason it doesn't do that in Rayman 3 is because Rayman 3 always has a fixed jump height. If only tap jump, he still jumps to his full height, regardless of the helicopter. They designed Rayman 3 so short, technical jumps aren't necessary when they definitely are necessary in Rayman 2, especially when you want to move as fast as possible (say, speedrunning), and the helicopter can help make jumps even shorter and more technical.

Also, why do you complain about the helicopter immediately halting Rayman's upward movement, when you don't complain about it immediately halting his downward movement in every Rayman game, rather than progressively slow him down? I know it's supposed to work against gravity, not with it, but it's still very unrealistic and defies all the intuitive laws of momentum you constantly invoke.

[sergiomonty]

By the way, anaphasiia, you could just sum up your entire breakdown with, you know, a friendly "I disagree". I don't know, I don't really like wasting people's time.

No, many of your accusations against the game are simply false or impossibly contorted. I was pointing that out. It's not really an opinion.

"HOW DARE YOU DISLIKE THE PERFECT GAME THAT SHOULDN'T BE JUDGED FOR REASONS THAT I DON'T BELIEVE EXIST."

Never said you couldn't enjoy it yourself, though. Sorry if I felt unconfortable with the controls and camera. I must have been lying the whole time.

[anaphasiia]

You didn't counter anything I said, so you haven't proved they exist, Strawlord. I'll summarize:

> You: "The camera often gets stuck."
> Me: "When? I think the camera is one of the most flawless and advanced ones for what it does. "
> You: (no response)

> You: "The game has a lot of slow, clunky sections."
> Me: "Where? Aside from carrying objects very seldom and for very brief periods, I can't recall any slow, overlong parts." (except maybe that flying part in the Iron Mountains)
> You: (no response)

> You: "Climbing is tedious and slow."
> Me: "All climbing sections in the game are extremely short and you climb the same speed you run."
> You: (no response)

> You: "If you make a mistake on a climbing section, you have to start over."
> Me: "This literally isn't true, you can always grab on again right where you were if you get hit, except for maybe one of them."
> You: (no response)

> You: "The helicopter is difficult to use, it doesn't make sense, and you to die because of it all the time."
> Me: "The helicopter makes you fall slower and gives you extra control. How can that possibly make it dangerous?"
> You: "I try to activate it as if it acts like a real helicopter."
> Me: "Correct, it doesn't act like a real helicopter. But many platformer hover mechanics act the exact same way, because it works for what it's used for, and it acting like that has more useful purposes aside from slowing descent which would not work if it were realistic. Also, the games you say do it right don't really act intuitively like real helicopters either."
> You: "I never said YOU couldn't like the game."

[sergiomonty]

You didn't counter anything I said, so you haven't proved they exist, Strawlord.

Lolz. Do I need to?
You're an annoying one, aren't ya?

I just don't like the game that much, I already pointed out why. If you want to counter-argument everything I found wrong and didn't let me enjoy the experience, well, that's like, you know, your problem, not mine. You won't force me to enjoy Rayman 2, no matter how hard you try, sorry hun.


It's still a good game for its era, so I understand if you like it.

[Bradandez]

Oh man, Rayman Legends is such a good game! Amirite guyssssssssssssssssss?

[Rayfist]

I don't think she was trying to force you to enjoy anything. Just debunk bullshit statements about the gameplay. It's like the people who say "Sonic was never good" who put forth inaccurate arguments.

But to go back on topic.
A lot of what you said gameplay-wise I think can certainly be brought into question. If you were to criticize it's art style or music, it'd make more sense.

And seriously, don't resort to the "It's just my opinion!" You put forth an argument about the gameplay, criticizing it. Whether the arguments are accurate or not, is not for me to decide, but Ana had every right to discuss how she didn't feel the same way. You can't just criticize something and expect not to have those critcisms scrutinized.

And no, I don't mind critiques for Rayman 2 at all, I actually welcome it, but I also welcome opposing viewpoints.

[NyaNyaLily]

Is it just me or do we talk about every Rayman game but the one the topic is about?
I think it's also happening to other topics.

[Bradandez]

I tried directing the topic to the proper one, but Rayfist called me a big friggin' idiot. So I'm not telling him nothing or else he'll say something mean to me again.

;(((((((((((((((((((

Each frown represents each time he hurt my feelings.

[Rayfist]

Sorry. I'm just trying to throw in my two cents on the matter. Not trying to derail.

Is it me or does the PS4 version of Legends look graphically better than the PC version somehow? I don't know what it is but it feels more... vibrant somehow?

[sergiomonty]

I don't think she was trying to force you to enjoy anything. Just debunk bullshit statements about the gameplay.

...

I even wasted time making a cute little drawing to explain my problem. But yeah, it's so easy to go all "oh, no, that doesn't happen". Well, it happened to me, guess my three copies of Rayman 2 were broken (the 3ds one counts even though it's the crappiest of the bunch).

This stuff happens to every fandom, man. The most "influential" title in the franchise is the perfect one, no discussion. The rest is total garbage for not being exactly like that title. Happens to Ocarina of Time, happens to Sonic Adventures 2, etc. The Rayman fandom seems to be no exception.

I don't say stuff for the sake of being controversial, I'm real honest here, guys, I didn't like the momentum-breaking propeller that R2 has, I don't like the auto-aim, the barrels, I don't like the wall-grabbing sections (and saying that it is the same speed as running is bullshit).

That is my opinion, what is not an opinion and shouldn't be debatable is that... hey, those were the limitations of the era, and that, is, fine. What I despise the most is the situation in which you guys say "oh, no, it was planned that way", no it wasn't. It's a freaking PS/N64 game. Many things were not meant to be that way, and they were developed in an era where 3d platformers had tons of hit or miss ideas, with Rayman 2 being hits most of the time, of course.

Rayman 2 is still a great game for its era. Unlike later games, this is the only one with a cohesive story that makes sense, and an incredibly detailed universe that makes us feel like we're part of a 90's cartoon. But that's just the surface. Developing a great universe doesn't define the gameplay, and the gameplay had problems, or was a little too experimental, relying too much on the same gimmick of carrying stuff.

To me, Rayman 3 did it way, waaaay better. Sure the story was stupid, but the gameplay, oh man haven't I played that game like 10 times already.

I tried directing the topic to the proper one, but Rayfist called me a big friggin' idiot. So I'm not telling him nothing or else he'll say something mean to me again.

;(((((((((((((((((((

Each frown represents each time he hurt my feelings.

Poor thing. :c Seriously though, let's go back to Legends, you guys are hurting my mind with paragraphs of something as stupid as "enjoying an old game".

[Rayfist]

This stuff happens to every fandom, man. The most "influential" title in the franchise is the perfect one, no discussion. The rest is total garbage for not being exactly like that title. Happens to Ocarina of Time, happens to Sonic Adventures 2, etc. The Rayman fandom seems to be no exception.

And no, I don't mind critiques for Rayman 2 at all, I actually welcome it, but I also welcome opposing viewpoints.

Thanks for actually reading what I said. I actually don't mind your critiques at all. All I was saying is you can't expect not to have it questioned.
I like to have legitimate discussion on these things, and if we just end it with "well that's my opinion" there's really not much to discuss, huh?
Edit: I'll bring this to the Rayman 2 thread next response I get not to derail any further.