Rayman Pirate-Community

You have no proof of what is and isn't rare though. That's where my question comes from. Plus you also have no proof of cowardice being an inherent part of even depressive suicide.

And on those definitions:

http://dictionary.reference.com/browse/cowardice
http://dictionary.reference.com/browse/weak-willed

I am not seeing the parallel at all. They are completely different things.

sonicbrawler182 wrote:You have no proof of what is and isn't rare though

I don't think you gathered that I'm relating cowardice to depressive suicide here, and by depressive suicide, I'm referring to anything that encompasses dissatisfaction with one's own current life position that is possible to be rectified as the cause, which safe to say, is the leading cause of suicide in first-world countries (and likely everywhere) over the likes of impassioned, genocidal bombings and people who, in my less-common example, favour the concept of death over the concept of life.

sonicbrawler182 wrote:Plus you also have no proof of cowardice being an inherent part of even depressive suicide.

This literally makes zero sense. I just described my argument logically, using logic. This is like saying "You don't have proof that 3+5=8". You're free to 'prove me wrong' and point out faults in my logic, but simply stating that I don't have proof for something that is thought out enough to be perceived as a 'logical deduction' is not a substitute for an argument. Logic works in a certain inarguable way, and an impressive number of people who discuss this topic in particular aren't willing to actually think, and go all God-of-the-gapsy.

To point out some blatant irony, your previous description of the motives for depressive suicide line up more closely with the above definition for cowardice than they do weak will. Previously, you stated that depressive suicide in most cases is essentially "weighing the price of life's admission versus the qualities it has to offer, and opting out if you feel it isn't worth it". So, deciding not to put up with something because it's too challenging, basically. They weren't swayed through a weak will, it was rational thought and backing out instead of standing up and lowering that price of admission by whatever means necessary. Cowardice.

Am I talking to someone from a parallel universe who is reading an entirely different post to what I am writing?

First off, I know you're referring to depressive suicide, I've mentioned that enough times already.

Previously, you stated that depressive suicide in most cases is essentially "weighing the price of life's admission versus the qualities it has to offer, and opting out if you feel it isn't worth it". So, deciding not to put up with something because it's too challenging, basically.

...No. No, see, you're just jumping to wild conclusions here. You aren't making any logical deductions, just brash statements that ignore very concrete facts.

Something doesn't have to be "too challenging" to not be worth it. Hell, something can feel not worth it because it's too easy!
I simply said that, depressive suicide is deciding to opt out of life when you feel it isn't worth it. That's it. That's what it's defined by.

However, that doesn't imply cowardice. Cowardice refers to not doing something out of fear, specifically. I didn't, at any point, imply that fear of the pains of life is an inherent, overarching reason for suicide.

Cowardice is not the same thing as a weak will, it's more a reason one can have to lack will/be weak willed. It's not the only one, though. There's indifference. There's disliking something. There's finding something too challenging and being demotivated by it (this is not the same as cowardice, as you tried to claim - it's more a feeling of futility, that you are not good enough. It's not a fear, it's often a feeling induced by knowing one's own limits). There's finding something too easy. There's finding something boring. All of these things, alone or combined, can lead to someone having a lack of will, or make them weak willed - including making them lack the will to live. As I pointed out before, you just seem dead set on not acknowledging these things, and now, you seem dead set on not acknowledging the blatant difference between someone with a weak will, and someone who is cowardly. Cowardice is in no way the most common factor in stripping someone of their will to live, and really, as I pointed out before and as you agreed to - it's not really something you can just assume, and it's not really something anyone is keeping a tally of.

To close, depressive suicide is simply caused by a lack of will to live, which can in some cases be the result of fearing the pains of life, i.e cowardice, but cowardice is far from an inherent or even especially common factor (honestly out of all of the depressively suicidal people I've met, none of them actually feared life or the pains they were going through. In most cases I've witnessed, it was more fatigue - they were simply sick of certain things in life that, at the time, they didn't have the will to sit through). Non-depressive suicide isn't, it's more caused by thinking life is worth it, but just seeing even more worth/appeal in death.

sonicbrawler182 wrote:Am I talking to someone from a parallel universe who is reading an entirely different post to what I am writing?

Likewise. Did you not read the part of my post where I mentioned there being a more positive solution, one they would rather have, they just don't have the courage to keep looking? That means that there's something that can be done to fix their situation. Instead of finding out what that is and going on to live a happy life, they call it quits and settle for less. This journey can be incredibly difficult and may return null in their lifetime, but it's still backing down from said challenge/hardship that will in every case be entirely worth it if successful. Cowardice.

Your inability to read my posts in their entirety renders your latest post meaningless to the argument. Seriously, fuck this shit, it's pointless.

Adsolution wrote:

sonicbrawler182 wrote:Am I talking to someone from a parallel universe who is reading an entirely different post to what I am writing?

Likewise. Did you not read the part of my post where I mentioned there being a more positive solution, one they would rather have, they just don't have the courage to keep looking? That means that there's something that can be done to fix their situation. Instead of finding out what that is and going on to live a happy life, they call it quits and settle for less. This journey can be incredibly difficult and may return null in their lifetime, but it's still backing down from said challenge/hardship that will in every case be entirely worth it if successful. Cowardice.

Your inability to read my posts in their entirety renders your latest post meaningless to the argument. Seriously, fuck this shit, it's pointless.

And once again, you confuse a lack of will/motivation to do something as cowardice, even after me explaining at length to you how they are not inherently the same thing, someone can give up on trying to find value in life without fear/cowardice even being a remote factor (heck, some people are simply just impatient). My entire previous post already addressed and debunked this mindset that courage is inherently a factor in having the will to keep looking, and you chose to ignore it and in some contrived way, tried to pass it off as me ignoring a part of your post that I very directly addressed.

Good job.

There are clearly things getting lost in translation of interpretation here, because from what I've read, you still haven't properly responded to the part you claim to have addressed even earlier than you actually did. I don't fully understand why (actually, I'm quite sure I do know why), but you're the only person on this forum I simply can't debate with on any level.

However, actions of cowardice are ones that people make out of fear, occasionally very consciously (e.g., to save your ass), whereas weak-willed actions are moreso a loss of control than anything, which don't have to necessarily relate to fear at all, and, essentially, I believe cowardly actions can often be an act of a weak will, but weak-willed actions are less often a form of cowardice. As someone who has actually had suicidal thoughts, I can assure you that they weren't a result of me being afraid of the hardships of life, but moreso me impulsively considering the advantages of life and death in a very biased and warped train of thought. Actually, cowardice is pretty much the thing that has prevented me from committing the act, if anything, the fear of death and the realization of the abominably greater negative consequences of the act pulling me back into reality. Suicide actually takes a lot of bloody nerve in my eyes, a lot of nerve to commit an incredibly regrettable act.

OldClassicGamer wrote:Do I think if some emo complains about his life non-stop and commits suicide is coward? Yes. Do I think person who commits suicide over "cyber-bullying" is coward? Yes I do. Do I think that ANY person who suffers from depression (not just Robin Williams) is coward? No because depression is horrible thing and they should be helped to overcome it.

Depending on the intensity, cyber-bullying is a perfectly valid reason to be depressed, and that emo kid is probably that way for a reason, so I'm not exactly sure what this nonexistent distinction is supposed to be.

Its a Morton's Fork but I agree with OldClassicGamer, If you killed yourself because of depression you became your own worst enemy. Your not a coward but you defeated the enemy.

technology4617 wrote:Actually, cowardice is pretty much the thing that has prevented me from committing the act, if anything, the fear of death and the realization of the abominably greater negative consequences of the act pulling me back into reality.

To me, that doesn't sound like cowardice, but like survivor's instinct.

Adsolution wrote:There are clearly things getting lost in translation of interpretation here, because from what I've read, you still haven't properly responded to the part you claim to have addressed even earlier than you actually did. I don't fully understand why (actually, I'm quite sure I do know why), but you're the only person on this forum I simply can't debate with on any level.

Instead of making claims with absolutely nothing to back them up and seem like nothing more than an attempt to feel like you got the last word in, and throwing in a somewhat ambiguous stab at me at the very end, try making an actual point. This post you just made contributes absolutely nothing (maybe that's why you "simply can't debate" with me?).

I responded perfectly well to the part you claimed I didn't - you say people are cowards if they don't hold out long enough to see that suicide as an answer to depression isn't the right answer, and I tell you that cowardice is not an inherent factor, nor can anyone make a logical claim that it's a common one, since nobody is keeping a tally on that. Weak will is the inherent factor in depressive suicide, not cowardice. Someone can feel a lack of will to do something (including continuing to live) without fear being a part of the equation (keeping in mind that cowardice is defined by not having the will to do something SPECIFICALLY because of being too fearful and not having enough courage to fight fear). For example, I had a lack of will to get up out of bed early this morning, because I was tired and I had no super important or urgent things to attend to this morning. This has absolutely nothing to do with fear, much like how people can have many reasons besides fear to lack the will to live. The "cowardice" point you kept trying to re-iterate as being a constant in depressive suicide, as well as weak will, despite you closing it with the statement "cowardice is a prominent factor in depressive suicide", doesn't even back up your point at all, you're simply telling yourself it does and brushing off any proper evidence that what you say isn't the truth.

In the end, all you've done is ignore absolutely everything I say, and claim what you're saying is "logical", even though your logic has a giant gaping hole in it (i.e. you refusing to accept the very defined difference between weak will and cowardice. Because you have convinced yourself that these things are the exact same thing, you interpret what I say as contradictory to my own belief, even though it isn't under the real definitions of the two words). You're only displaying confirmation bias, by warping the definitions of two very different things to make my points "more effectively" favour you in your eyes, when in reality, I've more than proven that they do anything but that.

The only things getting lost in translation and interpretation here are the definitions of "weak willed" and "cowardice", and the one guilty of it is you, as a result of your confirmation bias. While you pre-maturely made the claim that I am "pretty fucking set" on excluding cowardice as a factor in depressive suicide, I did no such thing, I simply oppose the notion that it's a universally prominent one, as there are plenty of people who lose the will to live with fear having little or nothing to do with it and instead, other factors can be the main cause for many people (e.g. fatigue, stress, plain boredom, guilt or self-hatred, etc). I myself served as an example of that, for a time.

Shrooblord wrote:

technology4617 wrote:Actually, cowardice is pretty much the thing that has prevented me from committing the act, if anything, the fear of death and the realization of the abominably greater negative consequences of the act pulling me back into reality.

To me, that doesn't sound like cowardice, but like survivor's instinct.

Yes, but depending on your point of view, succumbing to that instinct could also be a form of cowardice, due to your succumbing to a natural fear of death. However, in this case, it would be a logical form of cowardice, since you're backing away from something that would naturally be terrible for you. But regardless of it being cowardice or not, it's more similar to cowardice than most motives for suicide.

Z̵͕̣̯̋̓̊ͅA̶̶̦͖̥̤̳͙͔͈̋̏̽ͣ̇̇L̨̹̟̐̌͟G̵̣͉͉̥̞̜̟̪͉̍͋̾́̒̊̇̋O̴̺̫̮͎͓̮̘͋̈̉ͮ́̓̔ ̸͚̺͎̯̝̙͕́͘͡i̭͙̮̥̥̪̯͗̔̽̎͑̀ș͓̗͒͆͊̓͌͡ ̠̹̀͘͜r̙̖̗̼̓͂ͦ̀ͧ̈́ͫ͊̕͞ͅͅe͖͎̰̹͗̌͌͗ͭ͜͢͡t̵͔̤̯̒͛̀͘̕u̶̻͚͉̓̐͆́͌̊ͭ͌͢r̴͔̣̭̙̣͙͛ͬ͑͛͘n͙̜̦̰͓̯̂̌̈́ͨ̓ͬ̂ͦ̋i̥̜ͭ̾̌̀̽̍͟͝ͅn̙̣̗̣͖̼̖̞͊͊̕g̸̽̈҉̴̩͙͕̱͕̝!͔͋͋ͦ̿ͭ̅͗͡


Ŗ̗̱̪̙̪͙͕ͩ̋̋̽ͦ͐̾́̅ḁ̠̇ͭ͢i͒̋ͮ҉̡͔̹ͅn̗͇̥̱̈́̋̊͊ͬ̓̊ͪͅb̟͎̗̯͔͎ͧͧ̓͗̿̾̈́̔̕͘͝ͅỏͭͨ͗̃͊̏͏̤̲͖̝͖̣͖͕͎w̸̖̙̪͙̺̒͂̅ͨͭ̈́͗͢ ̴̙͈̯̣̎͞Z̪̹͍̬͑͗́ͅͅA̢̮̪͉̯̬͚̱͔ͥͭ͆ͩ͑͋L̢͉̜̮̝͓̜̝ͦͧ̆̀͢G̰͖͇͍͇͚͓ͨ͊̋͋͛͛ͥO̵̩̥̬̱͈͕̝͂͊̇͒̓ͨ͗ͅ!̡̡͎̦̯̳́̔ͯ͒

sonicbrawler182 wrote:you say people are cowards if they don't hold out long enough to see that suicide as an answer to depression

Actually, I didn't, at all. I've reinforced at least twice - three times now - that I don't believe that everyone who commits suicide is a coward, going off my own criteria as to what qualifies someone as a coward.

sonicbrawler182 wrote:Instead of making claims with absolutely nothing to back them up

You're not backing your claims up with anything either. Why? Because there's not really anything to cite.

sonicbrawler182 wrote:and seem like nothing more than an attempt to feel like you got the last word in,

I was trying to end this before it gets any worse, because I'm ninety percent certain that a consensus will not be reached.

sonicbrawler182 wrote:Because you have convinced yourself that these things are the exact same thing,

I never said that they were the exact same thing, I was drawing parallels. However, I will admit that my wording may have made it come across as the former.

sonicbrawler182 wrote:I responded perfectly well to the part you claimed I didn't

No, because you're still overlooking my initial description. Your description of 'weak will' is superficial, and largely incorrect, which I already pointed out before. To explain in more detail:

The lack of will/motivation to do something which you would actually like to do is directly a result of cowardice. To take your not getting out of bed until late as an example, the reason you don't feel motivated to try and get out of bed is because you fear tiredness and uncomfortably (or a variety of other things). Realistically, assuming that you did have a good night's sleep and a lack of motivation is all that's stopping you, if you're able to make yourself get up, get something to eat, or do something that will waken you, then you'll be fine. It's the fear of having to trudge through those unpleasant steps in order to attain what you most desire that's stopping you. That's why people feel a lack of motivation to do certain things that they'd rather actually do.

To create another example, art blocks, feeling unmotivated to do creative things is usually due to being afraid that you won't be able to come up with something creative. You're too afraid to trust yourself, and the fear of disappointing others and yourself is a huge factor. Pushing these fears aside is all that's needed to help you, hence why things like marijuana typically aid creativity - they make you confident and abolish the sociological fear that's holding you back.

'Will' is not a matter of motivation, it refers to how well you're able to stay true to yourself. Having a weak will means that you're easily 'swayed', as in, people can easily change your mind without the need to logically convince you of something, simple feelings are likely all that's needed. This goes for you being able to change your own mind as well - you have an ideal, but irrational thoughts start consuming it, convincing you of something other than what you initially believed in, even though on a basic level, you don't actually agree with these thoughts. Extreme cowardice can often cause you to develop an extremely weak will, because you're too afraid to trust yourself. That's where the parallels are drawn.

sonicbrawler182 wrote:and the one guilty of it is you, as a result of your confirmation bias.

Lol.

Wow. You're seriously trying to tell me I was AFRAID to get out of bed?

Yeah, you definitely are showing confirmation bias. It's very hard to debate with you, since you just assume everything you say is correct, and don't stop to think about how ridiculous what you're saying is. That, or you are seriously, seriously terrible at identifying emotions and feelings. Not really having much will/reason to get out of bed early is not inherently related to cowardice in ANY conceivable way, that's just, frankly, completely nonsensical to assert.

I was not afraid to get out of bed and weak will is not indefinitely caused by cowardice, and your attempt to claim that has just highlighted how ridiculous such an assumption is.

One more thing:

Actually, I didn't, at all. I've reinforced at least twice - three times now - that I don't believe that everyone who commits suicide is a coward, going off my own criteria as to what qualifies someone as a coward.

"Someone with a weak will - They regress at the notion of having to put up with conflict, confrontation or hardship, the definition of a coward."
-Adsolution, 2014

Since you JUST went as far as to say that me not getting out of bed is a cowardly action because I displayed weak will to do something (proving that you outright think they are the same thing, regardless of and contradicting you saying you don't think so), and since people going through depressive suicide would have to have a weak will for some reason to go through with it (and therefore be displaying cowardice according to you), and since you STRAIGHT UP SAID "someone with a weak will" is "the definition of a coward" - actually, you did, at all, say you believe everyone who commits suicide is a coward.

You can't debate with me because you love displaying confirmation bias and you contradict yourself too much.

sonicbrawler182 wrote:Wow. You're seriously trying to tell me I was AFRAID to get out of bed?

sonicbrawler182 wrote:I was not afraid to get out of bed

I abhor it when people falsely simplify something someone's said and pull the 'the notion is preposterous!!!!!!!' card, it's not even an argument at all. It's almost religious.

You've not explained why my argument isn't sensible, nor have you explained the cause for demotivation, whereas that's what I've attempted to do. It's as if you're almost... afraid... to venture into that territory. You just keep saying "cowardice and weak will aren't related" without any explanation as to why, constantly (and amusingly, incorrectly,) citing the dictionary as your source without any regard as to how one thing can affect another.

sonicbrawler182 wrote:One more thing:

[quote]Actually, I didn't, at all. I've reinforced at least twice - three times now - that I don't believe that everyone who commits suicide is a coward, going off my own criteria as to what qualifies someone as a coward.

"Someone with a weak will - They regress at the notion of having to put up with conflict, confrontation or hardship, the definition of a coward."
-Adsolution, 2014

Since you JUST went as far as to say that me not getting out of bed is a cowardly action because I displayed weak will to do something (proving that you outright think they are the same thing, regardless of and contradicting you saying you don't think so), and since people going through depressive suicide would have to have a weak will for some reason to go through with it (and therefore be displaying cowardice according to you), and since you STRAIGHT UP SAID "someone with a weak will" is "the definition of a coward" - actually, you did, at all, say you believe everyone who commits suicide is a coward.[/size][/quote]Yeah, alright, that was poorly worded. I'm bound to word something a little off once in a while in a debate, there's my honesty up front for you. However, I thought it would be glaringly obvious that every post of mine superseding that one made use of the words differently but very consistently.

sonicbrawler182 wrote:You can't debate with me because you love displaying confirmation bias

Stop using that word, it makes you sound pretentious as all hell when you haven't even been using it correctly at all for the last while - either that or you really, really do lack the ability to read or understand my posts in their entirety, which I reckon is the case here.

sonicbrawler182 wrote: and you contradict yourself too much.

Adsolution wrote:I thought it would be glaringly obvious that every post of mine superseding that one made use of the words differently but very consistently.

Arguably a sole contradiction that happened very near the beginning of the debate and never arose again, realistically rendering it unimportant and irrelevant. Why not respond to my substance rather than focus on something so puerile and no longer applicable?

I abhor it when people falsely simplify something someone's said and pull the 'the notion is preposterous!!!!!!!' card, it's not even an argument at all. It's almost religious.

More pointless fluff where you talk big and show that you are ignoring nearly everything I say, yet again. Moving on...

You've not explained why my argument isn't sensible, nor have you explained the cause for demotivation, whereas that's what I've attempted to do. It's as if you're almost... afraid... to venture into that territory. You just keep saying "cowardice and weak will aren't related" without any explanation as to why, constantly (and amusingly, incorrectly,) citing the dictionary as your source without any regard as to how one thing can affect another.

First of all, the dictionary definitions should have been enough because they make my point pretty concisely clear.

Second of all:

"Cowardice is not the same thing as a weak will, it's more a reason one can have to lack will/be weak willed. It's not the only one, though. There's indifference. There's disliking something. There's finding something too challenging and being demotivated by it (this is not the same as cowardice, as you tried to claim - it's more a feeling of futility, that you are not good enough. It's not a fear, it's often a feeling induced by knowing one's own limits). There's finding something too easy. There's finding something boring. All of these things, alone or combined, can lead to someone having a lack of will, or make them weak willed - including making them lack the will to live. As I pointed out before, you just seem dead set on not acknowledging these things, and now, you seem dead set on not acknowledging the blatant difference between someone with a weak will, and someone who is cowardly. Cowardice is in no way the most common factor in stripping someone of their will to live, and really, as I pointed out before and as you agreed to - it's not really something you can just assume, and it's not really something anyone is keeping a tally of."

" you say people are cowards if they don't hold out long enough to see that suicide as an answer to depression isn't the right answer, and I tell you that cowardice is not an inherent factor, nor can anyone make a logical claim that it's a common one, since nobody is keeping a tally on that. Weak will is the inherent factor in depressive suicide, not cowardice. Someone can feel a lack of will to do something (including continuing to live) without fear being a part of the equation (keeping in mind that cowardice is defined by not having the will to do something SPECIFICALLY because of being too fearful and not having enough courage to fight fear). For example, I had a lack of will to get up out of bed early this morning, because I was tired and I had no super important or urgent things to attend to this morning. This has absolutely nothing to do with fear, much like how people can have many reasons besides fear to lack the will to live."

Both quotes from me, which explain exactly what you claim I didn't. Weak-will to live, again, is the universal motivation for depressive suicide, and since cowardice is not inherently something that comes with depressive or suicidal thoughts, the two are not one in the same. Cowardice is just one of the many things that CAN cause someone to have a weak-will.

Also, cut it with the cheesy puns. You aren't being smart or funny with them, and frankly, I don't think anyone would appreciate someone going besides the point to try and make puns (that double as false, ignorant accusations) when discussing the matter of depressive suicide. Makes one wonder about whether you genuinely care about the subject matter of depressive suicide, or if you are just here to pretend you're always right and shove your ignorant "opinion" down other people's throats, with insufficient points backing up your claims.

Maybe if you focused more on actually reading the posts of others (since it's quite clear you haven't been reading my posts properly or have been filtering out or twisting them in your head because it suits you to - again, the definition of displaying confirmation bias...yes, I am using that term correctly, and you trying deny as such is further proving you have it in this instance - also, technology made a very enlightening post on the matter that I think you should consider, even including his own personal experience with suicide - I would do the same, but I haven't even felt the need to do that since you haven't actually proven anything I've said to be wrong anyway, merely pretend you have in your confirmation bias), instead of trying to be witty, you'd actually be able to make a reasonable point, or maybe you'd actually see where your fault is, learn something from it and, as a result, have a better understanding of how depressive suicide (or even depression in general) works.

Yeah, alright, that was poorly worded. I'm bound to word something a little off once in a while in a debate, there's my honesty up front for you. However, I thought it would be glaringly obvious that every post of mine superseding that one made use of the words differently but very consistently.

Arguably a sole contradiction that happened very near the beginning of the debate and never arose again, realistically rendering it unimportant and irrelevant. Why not respond to my substance rather than focus on something so puerile and no longer applicable?

"They weren't swayed through a weak will, it was rational thought and backing out instead of standing up and lowering that price of admission by whatever means necessary. Cowardice."
-Adsolution

"This journey can be incredibly difficult and may return null in their lifetime, but it's still backing down from said challenge/hardship that will in every case be entirely worth it if successful. Cowardice."
-Adsolution

Total of three times now. You have on three occasions likened suicidal people to cowards.

And quite frankly, the one instance I quoted earlier, was enough. That time, you DIRECTLY said they were the same thing. If you directly contradicted something in that manner in court, you can't just weasel out of it and say "uuuuuuh sorry, slip of the tongue, ignore that, 'twas irrelevant!", so don't think for a second I will just brush that off because it suits you for me to brush it off. You didn't simply slip up. You made the most direct claim you have made this entire time. That wasn't a matter of poor wording (way too stark a contrast to the opposite view), that was the truth coming out, the most defined and extreme stance you've claimed to have in this discussion. At least some part of you believes all suicidal people are cowards (though considering how this whole discussion has gone, I doubt it's a small part, kinda was getting the impression you felt that before you even directly said it). The fact that you tell me to just ignore that is, quite frankly, pathetic and desperate. And once again, a very direct display of confirmation bias, literally asking me to ignore one of your own statements.

And since I forgot to answer this earlier:

'Will' is not a matter of motivation, it refers to how well you're able to stay true to yourself. Having a weak will means that you're easily 'swayed', as in, people can easily change your mind without the need to logically convince you of something, simple feelings are likely all that's needed.

verb (used with object), verb (used without object), present singular 1st person will, 2nd will or (Archaic) wilt, 3rd will, present plural will; past singular 1st person would, 2nd would or (Archaic) wouldst, 3rd would, past plural would; past participle (Obsolete) wold or would; imperative, infinitive, and pres. participle lacking.
10.
to wish; desire; like: "Go where you will."
"Ask, if you will, who the owner is."

"I do not have a wish to live."
"I do not have a desire to live."
"I do not have a motivation to live."
"I do not have a will to live."

Fear/cowardice is not inherently linked her, because it's an expansion of any of the previous statements:

"I fear what the future holds for me and that it may never get better, so as a result, I do not have a wish/desire/motivation/will to live".

Be careful, sonic, you double-posted.

'Twas a site glitch, feel free to delete one.

sonicbrawler182 wrote:Weak-will to live, again, is the universal motivation for suicide

What the hell is that?

I won't add fuel to the fire, but please do not say something like that. You both have good points, but you also saying that suicide is COMPLETELY due either to cowardice or to weak will, both of you. And that's wrong. You both know that it's not always the case.

Talk about universality for something such as suicide. This is the worst thing I EVER read about suicide, which is not something little.

I'm done with this.

I meant depressive suicide specifically. I've been multi-tasking, so I have made a few mistakes that I have edit out after the fact. Sorry for the confusion.