The Great Protoon

[MLII]

What I mean is I don't see why he doesn't consider RTAS canon, when he considers R1 canon, and that has the same charecter changes, different plots blah blah blah...

[Cairnie]

It's really hard to establish canon in a series like Rayman and to tell truth, Spiral shouldn't take that so seriously. Just hurts the brain for me.

[Kelvin12]

I think I missed Spiral anger, what happened?

[MLII]

Me and Will (iHeckler9) were talking about the series in Off Topic, and whether it was set before or after R2, when Spiral said he didn't consider it canon.

[spiraldoor]

The Rayman 1 universe was basically just a test to see if Rayman himself would work in a game, so that they wouldn't have to waste characters if it didn't get a sequel. All concepts around it, INCLUDING the Great Protoon, may as well never have existed. And to be honest, I like the R2 universe a lot better.

That's not very nice...

Well it's true. Why else would they take out every single character?

They left many, many elements from the first game in in the others.

Do you want the list?

[syntheticgerbil]

I don't think Rayman 1 was a test game. It was just a game that Ubisoft made, because this was an Ubisoft that was a lot smaller that it is now and didn't franchise the hell out of everything. It did take them 4 years to release another proper Rayman game after the first one. There also weren't any handheld spinoffs either in that time period. Not until after Rayman 2 did Rayman 1 get a Game Boy Color spin off. Also Tonic Trouble had a considerable amount of time devoted to it, which was a game developed when Ubisoft was much more into original IPs.

I think it's probably more having to do with artistic decisions made by Ancel. He grew up a little and maybe found a lot of the elements, characters, and bad guys were too cutesy or lacked staying power for another Rayman game. It's probably not a high concept. It is jarring that the Rayman universe gets changed around every official game though.

But I'm sure it was just a creative call as robot pirates, Razorbeard, Ly, and Globoxes are much more interesting to look at than explorers, Mr. Dark, Betilla, and Protoons. Rayman 2 also lost a lot of the cuteness and luciousness of Rayman 1.

[Xenon]

From what I understand much of the concepts (levels and characters) were actually not created by him but by his children. This would explain why the environments changed so much. It's kind of a good thing I think.

[syntheticgerbil]

Well it definitely would have been impossible to market the game in 1999 with all the same characters and cuteness the first game had. It was more acceptable to put out whatever in the heyday of platform mascot games, but I would guess there is still some reasoning for the changes in Rayman 2. I prefer the Rayman 2 universe out of all of the rest (I don't really consider Rayman 3 the same), even though I had finished and enjoyed Rayman before the second game ever came out.

[Sabertooth]

The Rayman 1 universe was basically just a test to see if Rayman himself would work in a game, so that they wouldn't have to waste characters if it didn't get a sequel. All concepts around it, INCLUDING the Great Protoon, may as well never have existed. And to be honest, I like the R2 universe a lot better.

That's not very nice...

Well it's true. Why else would they take out every single character?

They left many, many elements from the first game in in the others.

Do you want the list?

Yeah, yeah, I know, the helicopter hair, punching, purple lums, etc.

But can you name more than 3 returning characters? And no, that doesn't include Rayman.

[Holy Crap]

Spiral, he obviously wants the list.

[Xenon]

Naming the differences doesn't prove a game isn't a prequel anyway. The games are naturally dissimilar, that's just the way the Rayman series works.

[spiraldoor]

Yeah, yeah, I know, the helicopter hair, punching, purple lums, etc.

But can you name more than 3 returning characters? And no, that doesn't include Rayman.

Spiral, he obviously wants the list.

Very well...the list:

Code: Select all

The complete list of evidence that R1 is in the same world as R2 and R3:

R2 has giant pink mosquitoes that look exactly like Moskito from R1;

The '2D Madness' flashback minigame in R3 features Hoodlums in the Dream Forest,

The '2D Nightmare' minigame in R3 GC probably features Hoodlums in Picture City;

The Heart of the World in R2 and R3 could easily be the Great Protoon from R1; the reason it looks different may have something to do with the fact that it was shattered into a thousand pieces and reconstructed by the Teensies;

R1, R2, R3, RM, R3 GBA and RRR1 GBA all feature fairies, most of which give Rayman new powers by shooting silver lums into his '0';

R1, R2, R3, R3 GBA, RRR1 GBA, R1 GBC, and R2F have cages containing friendly creatures which Rayman must free by smashing the cages;

The Tings in R1 are very similar to the Familiar Spirits in Revolution; they're both sparkling, floating, blue objects, ten of which can be traded to a character to unlock a bonus level;

The Woods of Light in R2 has dancing mushrooms on the ground which jump on top of each other to form stacks, just like the mushrooms in the Dream Forest;

RRR1 GBA, which is set in the same world as R2 and R3, features literally dozens of R1 references which I won't even bother listing here (three of the game's five locations are in the Dream Forest, Picture City, and Candy Chateau, for starters);

If Rayman wasn't from the world of R2, then his connection with the pillars containing the Masks of Polokus and status as wouldn't make any sense;

Fish which resemble the large-eyed fish from Eat At Joe's in R1 can be found in the Fairy Glade in 2 DC;

R2 PS1 features antitoons, just like all versions of Rayman 1;

The Rayman 3 website said that Razoff from Rayman 3 wanted to capture prey which would live up to that of his ancestors, which included "the Space Mama of Picture City";

Rayman 1 and 2 both have giant, fast growing plums which bounce up and down endlessly and can be used to cross water and lava (R3 and RRR1 GBA also feature slightly altered versions of these)

Way back when RRR1 was still R4, Ancel said that the Rabbids had been planning their invasion since before R1, which is a very odd statement to make if they're in different worlds;

The Sanctuary of Rock and Lava has has floating flowers that look very similar to the floating flowers from R1;

The blue butterflies seen in R1 are also seen in R2, R3 and RM;

The plum-posts in Rayman 3 feature pictures of Livingstones from R1 on them;

R1 isn't totally devoid of limbed creatures; nor are the other games totally devoid of limbless ones: the Monks in Gong Heights have legs and necks, but no arms; in Eat At Joe's, Joe's calendar features a picture of a limbed woman in a bikini; Globox and his family have floating, disconnected feet, if you look closely; Axel and Foutch's heads are floating necklessly in R2 PS1; also in R2 PS1, Umber says to Rayman "It is an honour to serve a great hero such as yourself" (if Rayman's defeat of Mister Dark occurred in another world, Umber wouldn't know about it, and therefore wouldn't call Rayman a "hero" for it;

R1 and R2 both feature climbable vines;

R1, R2, R3 and RRR1 GBA all feature blue-and-orange jumping piranhas with breakable teeth;

The silvery objects Betilla shoots into Rayman's '0' in R1 = silver lums in R2 (both are given by fairies; both are absorbed into Rayman's '0'; both give him new powers)

Why the hell would Rayman lose all of his powers when the Heart of the World was destroyed if those powers were from another universe?

The large red health items Rayman can pick up in R1 = red lums in R2 (they're both red, glowing pickups that restore Rayman's health)

The mini red health items Rayman can pick up in R1 = red lums in R3 (they both restore health; they're both red; they both have the same, atom-like structure)

The purple rings in R1 = purple lums in R2 (both need a silver lum to be used; both are 0-shaped; both are purple; buth have fluttering wings; both are used by hitting them with an attact; both connect to Rayman's hand with a trail of sparkling energy)

The golden fist in R1 = golden fist in R2

Absolutely nowhere, in any game, official website, supplemental material, interview, or anywhere else, is it stated, or even implied, that R1 occurred in a different world to the other games;

And finally, the actual PROOF: The R2 N64 manual says that the inhabitants of the Glade of Dreams only came to completely trust Rayman AFTER he defeated Mister Dark, proving beyond doubt that Rayman 1 is in the same world as Rayman 2.

And yes, the manual IS reliable! The "Fairy Council" was BRIEFLY mentioned, ONCE, in one version of the R2 manual, and it was made into a full-fledged level in R3! If the manual isn't accurate, explain THAT!

Whew... I'm quite exhausted after spending the last forty minutes or so typing up my response to Raydragon.

~I obliterated him, though...

[PluMGMK]

Yeah, yeah, I know, the helicopter hair, punching, purple lums, etc.

But can you name more than 3 returning characters? And no, that doesn't include Rayman.

Spiral, he obviously wants the list.

Very well...the list:

Code: Select all

The complete list of evidence that R1 is in the same world as R2 and R3:

R2 has giant pink mosquitoes that look exactly like Moskito from R1;

The '2D Madness' flashback minigame in R3 features Hoodlums in the Dream Forest,

The '2D Nightmare' minigame in R3 GC probably features Hoodlums in Picture City;

The Heart of the World in R2 and R3 could easily be the Great Protoon from R1; the reason it looks different may have something to do with the fact that it was shattered into a thousand pieces and reconstructed by the Teensies;

R1, R2, R3, RM, R3 GBA and RRR1 GBA all feature fairies, most of which give Rayman new powers by shooting silver lums into his '0';

R1, R2, R3, R3 GBA, RRR1 GBA, R1 GBC, and R2F have cages containing friendly creatures which Rayman must free by smashing the cages;

The Tings in R1 are very similar to the Familiar Spirits in Revolution; they're both sparkling, floating, blue objects, ten of which can be traded to a character to unlock a bonus level;

The Woods of Light in R2 has dancing mushrooms on the ground which jump on top of each other to form stacks, just like the mushrooms in the Dream Forest;

RRR1 GBA, which is set in the same world as R2 and R3, features literally dozens of R1 references which I won't even bother listing here (three of the game's five locations are in the Dream Forest, Picture City, and Candy Chateau, for starters);

If Rayman wasn't from the world of R2, then his connection with the pillars containing the Masks of Polokus and status as wouldn't make any sense;

Fish which resemble the large-eyed fish from Eat At Joe's in R1 can be found in the Fairy Glade in 2 DC;

R2 PS1 features antitoons, just like all versions of Rayman 1;

The Rayman 3 website said that Razoff from Rayman 3 wanted to capture prey which would live up to that of his ancestors, which included "the Space Mama of Picture City";

Rayman 1 and 2 both have giant, fast growing plums which bounce up and down endlessly and can be used to cross water and lava (R3 and RRR1 GBA also feature slightly altered versions of these)

Way back when RRR1 was still R4, Ancel said that the Rabbids had been planning their invasion since before R1, which is a very odd statement to make if they're in different worlds;

The Sanctuary of Rock and Lava has has floating flowers that look very similar to the floating flowers from R1;

The blue butterflies seen in R1 are also seen in R2, R3 and RM;

The plum-posts in Rayman 3 feature pictures of Livingstones from R1 on them;

R1 isn't totally devoid of limbed creatures; nor are the other games totally devoid of limbless ones: the Monks in Gong Heights have legs and necks, but no arms; in Eat At Joe's, Joe's calendar features a picture of a limbed woman in a bikini; Globox and his family have floating, disconnected feet, if you look closely; Axel and Foutch's heads are floating necklessly in R2 PS1; also in R2 PS1, Umber says to Rayman "It is an honour to serve a great hero such as yourself" (if Rayman's defeat of Mister Dark occurred in another world, Umber wouldn't know about it, and therefore wouldn't call Rayman a "hero" for it;

R1 and R2 both feature climbable vines;

R1, R2, R3 and RRR1 GBA all feature blue-and-orange jumping piranhas with breakable teeth;

The silvery objects Betilla shoots into Rayman's '0' in R1 = silver lums in R2 (both are given by fairies; both are absorbed into Rayman's '0'; both give him new powers)

The large red health items Rayman can pick up in R1 = red lums in R2 (they're both red, glowing pickups that restore Rayman's health)

The mini red health items Rayman can pick up in R1 = red lums in R3 (they both restore health; they're both red; they both have the same, atom-like structure)

The purple rings in R1 = purple lums in R2 (both need a silver lum to be used; both are 0-shaped; both are purple; buth have fluttering wings; both are used by hitting them with an attact; both connect to Rayman's hand with a trail of sparkling energy)

The golden fist in R1 = golden fist in R2

Absolutely nowhere, in any game, official website, supplemental material, interview, or anywhere else, is it stated, or even implied, that R1 occurred in a different world to the other games;

And finally, the actual PROOF: The R2 N64 manual says that the inhabitants of the Glade of Dreams only came to completely trust Rayman AFTER he defeated Mister Dark, proving beyond doubt that Rayman 1 is in the same world as Rayman 2.

And yes, the manual IS reliable! The "Fairy Council" was BRIEFLY mentioned, ONCE, in one version of the R2 manual, and it was made into a full-fledged level in R3! If the manual isn't accurate, explain THAT!

Whew... I'm quite exhausted after spending the last forty minutes or so typing up my response to Raydragon.

~I obliterated him, though...

Spiral, we agree with each other about 50% of the time and this is one of those times. So, before this can be countered, I would like to say well done, Spiral and those were forty minutes well-spent!

[Sabertooth]

Yeah, yeah, I know, the helicopter hair, punching, purple lums, etc.

But can you name more than 3 returning characters? And no, that doesn't include Rayman.

Spiral, he obviously wants the list.

Very well...the list:

Code: Select all

The complete list of evidence that R1 is in the same world as R2 and R3:

R2 has giant pink mosquitoes that look exactly like Moskito from R1;

The '2D Madness' flashback minigame in R3 features Hoodlums in the Dream Forest,

The '2D Nightmare' minigame in R3 GC probably features Hoodlums in Picture City;

The Heart of the World in R2 and R3 could easily be the Great Protoon from R1; the reason it looks different may have something to do with the fact that it was shattered into a thousand pieces and reconstructed by the Teensies;

R1, R2, R3, RM, R3 GBA and RRR1 GBA all feature fairies, most of which give Rayman new powers by shooting silver lums into his '0';

R1, R2, R3, R3 GBA, RRR1 GBA, R1 GBC, and R2F have cages containing friendly creatures which Rayman must free by smashing the cages;

The Tings in R1 are very similar to the Familiar Spirits in Revolution; they're both sparkling, floating, blue objects, ten of which can be traded to a character to unlock a bonus level;

The Woods of Light in R2 has dancing mushrooms on the ground which jump on top of each other to form stacks, just like the mushrooms in the Dream Forest;

RRR1 GBA, which is set in the same world as R2 and R3, features literally dozens of R1 references which I won't even bother listing here (three of the game's five locations are in the Dream Forest, Picture City, and Candy Chateau, for starters);

If Rayman wasn't from the world of R2, then his connection with the pillars containing the Masks of Polokus and status as wouldn't make any sense;

Fish which resemble the large-eyed fish from Eat At Joe's in R1 can be found in the Fairy Glade in 2 DC;

R2 PS1 features antitoons, just like all versions of Rayman 1;

The Rayman 3 website said that Razoff from Rayman 3 wanted to capture prey which would live up to that of his ancestors, which included "the Space Mama of Picture City";

Rayman 1 and 2 both have giant, fast growing plums which bounce up and down endlessly and can be used to cross water and lava (R3 and RRR1 GBA also feature slightly altered versions of these)

Way back when RRR1 was still R4, Ancel said that the Rabbids had been planning their invasion since before R1, which is a very odd statement to make if they're in different worlds;

The Sanctuary of Rock and Lava has has floating flowers that look very similar to the floating flowers from R1;

The blue butterflies seen in R1 are also seen in R2, R3 and RM;

The plum-posts in Rayman 3 feature pictures of Livingstones from R1 on them;

R1 isn't totally devoid of limbed creatures; nor are the other games totally devoid of limbless ones: the Monks in Gong Heights have legs and necks, but no arms; in Eat At Joe's, Joe's calendar features a picture of a limbed woman in a bikini; Globox and his family have floating, disconnected feet, if you look closely; Axel and Foutch's heads are floating necklessly in R2 PS1; also in R2 PS1, Umber says to Rayman "It is an honour to serve a great hero such as yourself" (if Rayman's defeat of Mister Dark occurred in another world, Umber wouldn't know about it, and therefore wouldn't call Rayman a "hero" for it;

R1 and R2 both feature climbable vines;

R1, R2, R3 and RRR1 GBA all feature blue-and-orange jumping piranhas with breakable teeth;

The silvery objects Betilla shoots into Rayman's '0' in R1 = silver lums in R2 (both are given by fairies; both are absorbed into Rayman's '0'; both give him new powers)

The large red health items Rayman can pick up in R1 = red lums in R2 (they're both red, glowing pickups that restore Rayman's health)

The mini red health items Rayman can pick up in R1 = red lums in R3 (they both restore health; they're both red; they both have the same, atom-like structure)

The purple rings in R1 = purple lums in R2 (both need a silver lum to be used; both are 0-shaped; both are purple; buth have fluttering wings; both are used by hitting them with an attact; both connect to Rayman's hand with a trail of sparkling energy)

The golden fist in R1 = golden fist in R2

Absolutely nowhere, in any game, official website, supplemental material, interview, or anywhere else, is it stated, or even implied, that R1 occurred in a different world to the other games;

And finally, the actual PROOF: The R2 N64 manual says that the inhabitants of the Glade of Dreams only came to completely trust Rayman AFTER he defeated Mister Dark, proving beyond doubt that Rayman 1 is in the same world as Rayman 2.

And yes, the manual IS reliable! The "Fairy Council" was BRIEFLY mentioned, ONCE, in one version of the R2 manual, and it was made into a full-fledged level in R3! If the manual isn't accurate, explain THAT!

Whew... I'm quite exhausted after spending the last forty minutes or so typing up my response to Raydragon.

~I obliterated him, though...

I never said ANYTHING about them being in a different universe!

My God, you have it COMPLETELY wrong... (I'm about to get banned )

What I said, basically, is that no more than about 3 characters from Rayman 1 appeared in later games because Rayman 1 was just a creative project. When it became a series, Ancel (and this is all speculation, by the way) replaced all of the characters with people who would be better for an actual series. I mean, you can't exactly make a racing game of R1 when half of the protagonists look exactly like Rayman.

And to be honest, I like the R2 universe a lot better.

"Universe" as in concepts, characters, and plots. Not actual locations.

[spiraldoor]

I see.

~I disagree about R1 being a 'creative project'; the 2D version of R2 was originally going to be quite similar, with limbless characters and enemies, as well as returning characters such as Betilla. I think that the style shift was more to do with the 2D-to-3D jump than anything like that.

~~I left another response on the "whats up with the rayman storys" thread. This one took me about two hours...

[Sabertooth]

the 2D version of R2 was originally going to be quite similar, with limbless characters and enemies, as well as returning characters such as Betilla.

Oh yeah, I forgot about that. OK then.

[Beebop]

Wasn't there a bonus level at the end of Rayman Revolution where you played as a 2d Rayman?

[spiraldoor]

Wasn't there a bonus level at the end of Rayman Revolution where you played as a 2d Rayman?

You're thinking of the PS1 version.