Rayman 3 scores

[Xenon]

I don't think it's fun to partake in a contest where my efforts are rendered entirely pointless because the rules and gameplay aren't even remotely similar to what they once were back when I did compete, and the scores of this entirely new game can actually be rated on the same scoreboard as mine, shoving mine down lower.

That's exactly how I feel about the subject of PCMs. Well done for wording it better.

I can understand why players find these new discoveries interesting. I do too. It’s really cool to watch a speedrunner video. But I’m sure the same players can see how the glitches used in a speedrunner context may not benefit the scoring game.

Yeah, I find them interesting too. Do you remember the time we explored TDOTK part 3 for secret rooms, using a very similar IPG (which could not yield any points )? I believe I uploaded a video of it somewhere. I've always been interested in these 'out of world' glitches in the game, that make you feel like you're exploring the Rayman worlds from an extra-terrestrial viewpoint, or that you have some superhuman power to float around mid-air. I feel like such a child.

Indeed they aren't for the HOF though.

A quick message to Cut on his comments about the game progressing: the game has not progressed; it has changed. In terms of scoring in the game, finding 'cheats' that bend the design and rewrite the rule book to such an extent, I would argue, are signs of regression rather than progression. And if you really want to "progress" in the game, you should use the point-restart glitch MG discovered, as that will provide infinitely more points and infinitely more ways to play the levels.

The other 80% of your post that I didn't respond to contained rather a lot of old rhetoric. You're bringing the same old stuff up that featured on the first couple of pages of the discussion. You're kinda sounding like a broken record, with your speeches about TOTL (the IPG gameplay does look awesome, by the way, don't get me wrong on that), platform equality, other glitches in the game, etc. Things have developed since then, new discoveries have been made and I really thought we'd buried a lot of that stuff several pages ago.

As for a solution, it's still very difficult to say at this stage, but I too would rather not resort to a public vote. With the IPG, I was still quite pro-HOF column, but its ugly stepsister, the PMC, has made me question this idea if it can be triggered to make scoring easier or even yield some points. The thing is, truthfully, I kind of consider PMC and IPG to be the same thing but triggered from different positions, but in striving for a compromise I am willing to draw some differentiation between the two...

[Adsolution]

MandM, Xenon, Adsolution, are you going to play Rayman 3 again for points? Especially TOTL and CF?

Maybe, at some point.

Agreed on the voting portion.

[RibShark]

I'm just going to make a quick comment and mention that the speedrunners are allowing both PCM and no-PCM runs and are splitting them into two categories by adding a column to their table.

[Cut]

A quick message to Cut on his comments about the game progressing: the game has not progressed; it has changed. In terms of scoring in the game, finding 'cheats' that bend the design and rewrite the rule book to such an extent, I would argue, are signs of regression rather than progression. And if you really want to "progress" in the game, you should use the point-restart glitch MG discovered, as that will provide infinitely more points and infinitely more ways to play the levels.

MG's discovery was banned from the HoF years ago and it's also platform-dependent, what the IPG is not, so it falls through every critierion we agreed on. Do you really think that it's an adequate reaction to my post by coming up with polemic non-sense referring to MG's discovery? Also it's clear that I come up with "old" points again because the situation hasn't really changed as PCM is definetly not available on GC. So what's left? Well, the IPG.

BTW, I'll leave this discussion now until the opposition (except Adsolution once) stops refusing to answer sfn's posts as it seems like he is the new Sajiki now.

[sfn42]

I can just quote my own post as a response to Xenon's latest piece of rhetoric.

Some general remarks: I left to take some time to cool off and give others the chance to do so as well. I gotta say, though, you, RPC guys, have to stop playing the blame game and blaming us for everything. There are two sides in this argument and we are equally responsibly for it escalating. We have all said and done some stupid things throughout this argument and everyone has to take responsibility. You have to stop justifying your snide remarks or throwing old stuff around like the different gaming culture which is total nonsense or the hidden forum which has no bearing on the discussion at hand whatsoever. If we ever want to get to a solution, we have to move on from stuff like that.

[Xenon]

I'm just going to make a quick comment and mention that the speedrunners are allowing both PCM and no-PCM runs and are splitting them into two categories by adding a column to their table.

Thanks for that update. I wonder if our discussions had any bearing on their solution.

MG's discovery was banned from the HoF years ago and it's also platform-dependent, what the IPG is not, so it falls through every critierion we agreed on. Do you really think that it's an adequate reaction to my post by coming up with polemic non-sense referring to MG's discovery?

I wasn't trying to attack the IPG. I was challenging your views on the game's "progression" by highlighting an instance where score advancement is not necessarily beneficial to the game. You have been very vocal about how these glitches have revived the thread, made the gameplay more interesting, increased the max by ten thousand, and so on, which are all good things, but they are not just good by definition. There has to be some subjective sentiment from the players based on what they like about the game and what they consider to be acceptable and fair, and in this example, the advancement was neither of those things, but it was 'progression', so to speak. The short version: not all progress is good.

BTW, I'll leave this discussion now until the opposition (except Adsolution once) stops refusing to answer sfn's posts as it seems like he is the new Sajiki now.

Perhaps it's different for everyone else, but when I don't respond to posts, or segments of posts, it's not because I'm choosing to ignore that person. It's because I simply don't have anything to say in response, usually because the comments are reasonable. In quoting me you have left out a lot of content, so is that because you ignored me and chose not to read those parts? I suspect it's just because you simply didn't have anything to add or challenge.

@ sfn: I don't really see how any of that relates to anything I said. I'm not blaming anyone for anything, and I'm not bringing up stuff from the past. I was responding to stuff that was brought up from the past, though.

[MandM81]

I'm just going to make a quick comment and mention that the speedrunners are allowing both PCM and no-PCM runs and are splitting them into two categories by adding a column to their table.

Interesting notion. Should we borrow yet another idea from the speedrunners?

MandM, Xenon, Adsolution, are you going to play Rayman 3 again for points? Especially TOTL and CF?

This semester has been too busy for me to get into serious gaming. I have tried out a few ideas I will pursue, but that’s for some time in the future. What level are you playing at the moment?

... Do you remember the time we explored TDOTK part 3 for secret rooms, using a very similar IPG (which could not yield any points )? I believe I uploaded a video of it somewhere. I've always been interested in these 'out of world' glitches in the game, that make you feel like you're exploring the Rayman worlds from an extra-terrestrial viewpoint, or that you have some superhuman power to float around mid-air. I feel like such a child.

I do remember the video and I remember I felt a little bit disappointed by the missing secret room.

I forget how you triggered it though, how did you do that?

I do think it’s cool to explore the fabric of the game by means of outrageous glitches. I don’t need it to count in HoF - exploring is cool in its own right.

With the IPG, I was still quite pro-HOF column, but its ugly stepsister, the PMC, has made me question this idea if it can be triggered to make scoring easier or even yield some points. The thing is, truthfully, I kind of consider PMC and IPG to be the same thing but triggered from different positions, but in striving for a compromise I am willing to draw some differentiation between the two...

It’s hard not to look at them as different manifestations of the same fundamental glitch, namely as a glitch that triggers a mode in the game that provides an infinite Powerup. The known IPGs are all triggered by different means and when the next IPG is discovered it will turn out to require yet a new and different technique. I too will be willing to certain compromises in order to reach a consensus. Let’s see what a run-through of glitches brings forth.

Having time to be a bit philosophical tonight I came to think about progress and glitches. On a first thought, it’s actually a very limited number of glitches we have used in our games. Besides the Lums glitch and the Razoff glitches (if they are glitches at all) we/I have used the launching glitch in SBTC part 3 and a SJ in SBTC part 1 and DOTK part 8 and finally a Shield glitch in DOTK part 7. I may have forgotten some though.

Now it seems glitches are omnipresent, and some glitches even change the rules of the game very dramatically. Some call it progress, others don’t. But it seems to me progress can also be letting go of certain glitches. As a hypothetical example, could banning all glitches, including the Razoff glitches, be a way of renewing the game, at least BOM? I mean, it would be hard to reach 99.999 points and you really have to come up with something extraordinary to win this level.

I would call that progress as players are required to improve on creativity, inventiveness and dexterity in order to beat this level. It probably remains a purists dream.

In conclusion, it may not be straight forward deciding what should be regarded as progress or what should not. Maybe that’s something to bear in mind when we come to talk about the glitches.

I don't think it's fun to partake in a contest where my efforts are rendered entirely pointless because the rules and gameplay aren't even remotely similar to what they once were back when I did compete, and the scores of this entirely new game can actually be rated on the same scoreboard as mine, shoving mine down lower.

Sums up my sentiments exactly.

[Cut]

It’s hard not to look at them as different manifestations of the same fundamental glitch, namely as a glitch that triggers a mode in the game that provides an infinite Powerup. The known IPGs are all triggered by different means and when the next IPG is discovered it will turn out to require yet a new and different technique. I too will be willing to certain compromises in order to reach a consensus. Let’s see what a run-through of glitches brings forth.

The way of triggering is not really the main point of the differentiation, the TOTL and LOTLD IPGs are triggered different but the resulting mechanism is the same. The PCG is something different because the First-Person-Camera is completely unavailable while in IPG it's just glitchy, curved shots are impossible, the PCG is quittable and finally platform-bound. That's what I meant with "Infinite Powerup is just one effect in many". As the PCG is platform-bound, I would agree on banning it, but the IPG is platform-invariant. I still think the IPG is an enrichment for the game and makes it acutally harder. BTW MandM, we found combos which make the Hoodflyer-Maximum possible WITHOUT IPG. Maybe an incentive for the TOTL?

Having time to be a bit philosophical tonight I came to think about progress and glitches. On a first thought, it’s actually a very limited number of glitches we have used in our games. Besides the Lums glitch and the Razoff glitches (if they are glitches at all) we/I have used the launching glitch in SBTC part 3 and a SJ in SBTC part 1 and DOTK part 8 and finally a Shield glitch in DOTK part 7. I may have forgotten some though.

It depends on what is a trick and what is a glitch. A trick is an unintended but legit way of breaking the developers borders, a glitch is theroetically the same but much harder to see through but with the technical knowledge there is no real difference between what we supposed call a trick and a "real" glitch. And if we count all tricks too, excluding them would result in a maximum score around 550k points I think. Where is the real difference between placing a platform few pixels too low and a sleazy programming of the cutscene-camera which causes the IPG? The second is much harder to understand while the first is pretty obvious, technically both are programming-errors. So real glitches play a big but not the biggest role in the game but without tricks, this game would have lost it's charm at the latest 2005.

Now it seems glitches are omnipresent, and some glitches even change the rules of the game very dramatically. Some call it progress, others don’t. But it seems to me progress can also be letting go of certain glitches. As a hypothetical example, could banning all glitches, including the Razoff glitches, be a way of renewing the game, at least BOM? I mean, it would be hard to reach 99.999 points and you really have to come up with something extraordinary to win this level.

This is not the way it goes since 2005/2006. Behind every big improvement stands a glitch or at least a trick, there are few exceptions. I don't remember many improvements which were endowed to you, the glitch or the trick were mostly just the gate to new ways of playing a level, leading to higher scores but often requiring more skills. BOM would not become more interesting because there is no chance to get more points out of it without an at least big trick or kind of a glitch. BTW, the incentive to achieve 99.999 without the Razoff-Glitch is actually there right now, because if you manage it you would have found enough points to beat the current maximum-score of 101.299 pts just WITH the razoff-glitch

I would call that progress as players are required to improve on creativity, inventiveness and dexterity in order to beat this level. It probably remains a purists dream.

I can't remember a glitch which allowed the player to be so creative and inventive than the IPG. There are almost no borders left, you can combine now everything you want. You have to plan with 6 directions, not only with 4 and find the best way of playing this part.

But CF is a great example too of how it can be, since my 117.339 points were achieved without the IPG (although I would still love to find an IPG. 120k points in CF <3) but with some tricks as the ones in the video and some superjumps. You're free to enter the competition, we turned litterally every combo upside down and made most of our improvements just by creativity

Adsolution wrote:I don't think it's fun to partake in a contest where my efforts are rendered entirely pointless because the rules and gameplay aren't even remotely similar to what they once were back when I did compete, and the scores of this entirely new game can actually be rated on the same scoreboard as mine, shoving mine down lower.

Sums up my sentiments exactly.

IPG is relevant in one single part of the game, CF is completely legit and you could even improve your TOTL-score without the IPG. This would be right if the PCG would be still a matter, but it's not.

[Hunchman801]

The more glitches we discover, the harder it becomes to draw a boundary between acceptable and non-acceptable ones, as eventually new glitches will fall within the no-man's-land.

However, let's not get discouraged. A categorisation of glitches is probably the best thing to do now. Maybe someone can start listing them?

@ sfn: I don't really see how any of that relates to anything I said. I'm not blaming anyone for anything, and I'm not bringing up stuff from the past. I was responding to stuff that was brought up from the past, though.

I agree with Xenon, that's a real stretch here. He's probably the last one here that could be accused of disrespect or of polluting the debate with snide remarks.

[Cut]

So I think we got 3 categories here...

Platform-Invariant:
- Launching-Glitches (which includes the "Rolling Superjump", SBTC Part 3 etc.)
- Superjump
- High Jumping (platform-tricks in CF/TOTL/...)
- Cutscene-Breaking (CF Part 1)
- Razoff-Mansion-Glitch (definetly a glitch)
- Razoff-Dungeon-Glitch (debatable)
- Knaaren-Glitch (with legit alternative)
- Infinite Powerup Glitch (caused by a cutscene-state-inconsistence with broken First-Person-Mode)

Legal Platform-Bound Glitches:
- Missing Vortex in FC4
- Lums Glitch
- Ship Glitch (impossible on PS2)
- High Jumping II (Balloon-Jumping in LOTLD2, Scaffolding SBTC2 etc.)
Several unavoidable differences without influence on maximum scores, debatable which role these should play

Permitted Platform-Bound Glitches:
- Glidewalk
- Playable Camera Glitch (caused by camera-mode without Fisrt-Person-Mode and curved shots, quittable)
- Level-Score-Saving-Glitch (let's not stigmatize MG with his discovery anymore^^)

[MandM81]

There are several ways to approach the question of glitch categories. As the same glitch, for example the IPG, may appear differently in each level, the best way is perhaps to list the glitches in each part in each level. It may be a tiresome process, but it should also be an entertaining one.

As Cut points out, there may be a fine line between tricks and glitches, so perhaps one should list both. We can begin the glitches/tricks quest with the first level. The list below is not exhaustive so please copy/paste and add missing tricks and glitches to the list.

The Fairy Council

Part 1.
Nothing to report.

Part 2.
- SJ on the first Mushroom in area 2. It allows a quick ascent to the trampolines, but doesn’t help the scoring.
- Returning with hands to the first area by jumping to the wooden bridge.
- Numerous SJs and GWs in the last area. Worthless with regard to scoring (so far).

Part 3.
- SJ triggered on the doorway to the circular pathway with the Pigs. Makes you enter the room above.
- Jumping on the frame of the Glass Lift to reach the Hoodblaster across the room.

Part 4.
- SJ near the entrance makes it possible to reach the top platforms on the screws.
- Numerous SJs and GWs make it possible to commute between the room with the jellyfish trampolines and the Fairy room. Points gain a possibility. Not fully explored. Videos exist on YouTube.
- GW in the Fairy room combined with jumping the trampolines allows exit of this room through the wall. This is not fully explored. Video exists on YouTube.

Part 5.
- Numerous SJs and GWs. Nothing interesting so far. Videos exist on YouTube.

Part 6.
Nothing so far.

When we are satisfied with the list we can move on to CF. The end product should be a positive list of glitches/tricks and with the help of this get a clear picture of what we will let into HoF and equally important what we will not allow in the HoF. The glitches/tricks on the positive list will ultimately be categorized.

[sfn42]

Until you accept the evidence, which is IPG =/= PCM, then there is no point in even working towards a solution.

Also, I find listing all launching glitches and superjumps or other minor glitches of a similar type a total waste of time. It gets us absolutely nowhere in this debate. We have put all the IPGs we currently have on the table, as well as the new glitch type in CF. So we know all the types of glitches. Cut has listed them and even included some non-glitches. My previous conditions for any solution (see my penultimate post or the one before that) also still apply.

@Hunch and Xenon: My statement was about moving on. Discussions about the MG discovery and calling Cut out because you don't like his argumentation are sticking with the same non-issues that have plagued this debate from the beginning.

[MandM81]

The reasoning behind making a positive list is partly getting all glitches out in the open for all to try out on their respective platforms, and partly making it future proof in the sense, that a newly discovered glitch by default is not on the positive list. It has to enter this list to be “legit” in the HoF.

As an example, I have listed this point:

Numerous SJs and GWs make it possible to commute between the room with the jellyfish trampolines and the Fairy room. Points gain a possibility. Not fully explored.

This video shows parts of it in FC part 4.

It could be controversial, it could be not, I haven’t been there. But to me it looks like one could get the gems below the jellyfish trampolines with a Powerup.

In order that all players use the same rules in HoF, this glitch has to be investigated and it has to enter the positive list before it will be allowed into HoF. And there are and will be other borderline cases, which I hope will turn up along the way.

Cut’s list of categories is fine, and we can use it at some point. But it doesn’t serve the current purpose. For instance, it didn't catch a case like the one mentioned above and thus it’s not the right tool at this stage of the process.

A hypothetical question: Would we allow the PMC and the GW into the HoF if they hadn’t been platform dependent?

Sfn: Maybe we shall not expect you to take part of this work? I’m sorry to hear that if that is the case.

[Cut]

A hypothetical question: Would we allow the PMC and the GW into the HoF if they hadn’t been platform dependent?

The platform-dependency is the only legitimation for us to ban these glitches^^ I would love to use GW on PC because it adds enormous freedom to your level-routing but is also not overpowered and limited in utility.

This video shows parts of it in FC part 4.
It could be controversial, it could be not, I haven’t been there. But to me it looks like one could get the gems below the jellyfish trampolines with a Powerup

Since this is a glidewalk, there is no real need to do investigations about this^^ This is exactly what I mean with the routing-freedom

[sfn42]

Either you ban a specific glitch in all context or you don't ban it at all. It's as simple as that. We know that the SJ, launching glitch etc. work on all platforms, there is absolutely no reason in this wide world to ban them, and we have already decided to eliminate the glidewalk because it doesn't work on PC. Going through every instance of these glitches is just a distraction and nothing else. The issue at hand is finding a compromise on how to integrate glitches into the HoF. If you're not willing to discuss that, then we can just keep things as they are and go apart. I have no problem with that.

How about a new solution: We delete the HoF altogether (this is meant as a serious suggestion, not as some polemic statement!).

[MandM81]

Since this is a glidewalk, there is no real need to do investigations about this^^ This is exactly what I mean with the routing-freedom

As you can see, by listing the glitch, we already have a debate about its nature.

You don't actually need the GW from the video above to enter the Fairy room. You can bounce on the jellyfish and thus trigger a glitch that carries you high enough to pass through the wall as shown here. It's found at 3:10.

Some stated it works for PC, so investigation is needed.

[Cut]

This is worth an investigation but the Missing-Vortex-Points on GC can be ignored for a pragmatic way of dealing with platform-differences?

[MandM81]

This is worth an investigation but the Missing-Vortex-Points on GC can be ignored for a pragmatic way of dealing with platform-differences?

I've been reading the sentence a few times and I have no clue what you mean. Are you being sarchastic? Or do you think investigating a particular glitch is a good idea, but you'd like to talk about platform differences as well?

[Cut]

You’re on the road to nowhere with this kind of argumentation. The consensus in the scoring community has been a pragmatic attitude towards platform differences. My posts reflect that pragmatism. The basis for the consensus was the fact that platform differences were not a factor in the HoF rankings.

Your words. I don't understand why there is now an absolute need to do investigations on this. I will look at this soon but we can go on without spending days on discussing every little piece of a glitch.

[MandM81]

I think you got it wrong. I was talking about a specific glitch and not platform differences at all.

I have no trouble leaving this particular glitch out of a potential positive list.