Rayman Pirate-Community

Cut wrote:I would go even further: posting the level scores is necessary to validate a HoF-score. Which would put the ball also into Mirage's corner.

Obviously. That's part of the deal.

Shrooblord wrote: I guess it all boils down to how serious we take ourselves here and when a score stops being valid because it was obtained with 'too many glitches'.

In my eyes, that's a good point. The past few months have shown that a lot of the improvements which can still be made come from exploiting Glitches. As I've said many times before, I'm not one to incorporate too many Glitches into my own game, even if I'm perfectly fine with others using it. That's why I've started a Just-For-Fun-Project by starting a new game, and trying to get as good a Score as possible without using any Glitches. I rushed through FC (got 40.500 Points, will have to play that again), and I'm currently in CF2. It's a whole new game!

(On the note of FC... Would you guys consider taking a Matuvu through a wall/roof [no matter whether it's made of glass or not] a Glitch? I don't know whether my personal definition of a Glitch is a 100% accurate.)

I'm even thinking about using that No-Glitch-Savegame for the HoF once I'm finished, and the one I'm currently using for it just to get high Scores which Glitches for fun. I'm excited to see what Score I'll end up with.

If you manage to clip the camera through a wall and spot a Matuvu that way, that's lousy programming on Ubisoft's part and A-OK for use of point gathering in my book.

Maz wrote:(On the note of FC... Would you guys consider taking a Matuvu through a wall/roof [no matter whether it's made of glass or not] a Glitch? I don't know whether my personal definition of a Glitch is a 100% accurate.)

You can take Matuvu's through walls which are only solid from one side, that's pretty much lazy programming because the game doesn't consider these as an obstacle or something that should block your sight. But I see your point, the border between oddities and glitches is not clear.

Maz wrote:

Shrooblord wrote: I guess it all boils down to how serious we take ourselves here and when a score stops being valid because it was obtained with 'too many glitches'.

In my eyes, that's a good point. The past few months have shown that a lot of the improvements which can still be made come from exploiting Glitches. As I've said many times before, I'm not one to incorporate too many Glitches into my own game, even if I'm perfectly fine with others using it. That's why I've started a Just-For-Fun-Project by starting a new game, and trying to get as good a Score as possible without using any Glitches. I rushed through FC (got 40.500 Points, will have to play that again), and I'm currently in CF2. It's a whole new game!

(On the note of FC... Would you guys consider taking a Matuvu through a wall/roof [no matter whether it's made of glass or not] a Glitch? I don't know whether my personal definition of a Glitch is a 100% accurate.)

I'm even thinking about using that No-Glitch-Savegame for the HoF once I'm finished, and the one I'm currently using for it just to get high Scores which Glitches for fun. I'm excited to see what Score I'll end up with.

That's a very interesting way of playing the game, actually. FC is kinda tame when it comes to glitches, but starting in CF, things would be completely different and I guess you'd have to rethink a lot of combos (the first room in CF2 comes to mind immediately). I would be really interested in reading about further experiences you have with this endeavour.

I wouldn't consider a matuvu through the wall a glitch, but I'd say there is a gray area and that might fall into it. Since this is not an official category (yet, maybe), it's probably best you follow your personal definition.

Shrooblord wrote:Sure, I'd agree with someone using systematic glitches explaining how they're exploiting the game. I guess it all boils down to how serious we take ourselves here and when a score stops being valid because it was obtained with 'too many glitches'.

I would say I am very liberal when it comes to glitches and I'd say there can hardly be too many glitches. Glitches are part of the game and R3 has more than most games and I don't see any problem with taking advantage of the developers' sloppy programming. I know that others don't share that view, but the glitch question is only relevant to the HoF (and that's only a minor part of this whole discussion).

sfn42 wrote: I would be really interested in reading about further experiences you have with this endeavour.

Since I'm done with my CF2-Investigations, I'll be more than happy to share with you.

Of course the main problem here is that I couldn't use the SJs. In addition, it's impossible to jump on top of the Wooden Door as long as it's not broken down, so that was out of the question as well. As such, I really had to rack my brain to find a way of getting the Green Gem for more than 3.000 Points in Combo.

This was the first step to be taken. If you try to think about a few ways to play a Green-Gem-Combo yourself, you'll quickly realize that you'll HAVE to rely on this Red Gem to make it work.

Now the real problem was how to expand the Combo. The cave with the 4 Yellow Gems comes to mind (coincidently, that would put the Green Gem at exactly the 6th spot, thus just barely increasing the value to 6.000 Points), but it came with another problem, namely that it was impossible for me to connect the last Yellow Gem, the Red Gem and the Green Gem - whenever I had managed to get from Yellow to Red, I had taken the Red Gem too early to make it to the Green one; had I made the connection between Red and Green, I had lost the Combo beforehand.
Luckily, I managed to fix that problem by running up to the 4th Yellow Gem from the side (in the next video, you'll see what I mean). That way, I could take it while jumping out the Cage, and not one splitsecond earlier. Getting the Green Gem for 6.000 Points would've been more than enough to safely reach 109.789 in the end, but I wasn't completely satisfied with it.

The Green-Gem-Combo

Which is why THIS was created. First of all, I tried to find out whether I could get to the cave in time. When I confirmed that this was indeed possible, I had to try and find a way to include 4 more items into the Combo. The 3 Yellow Gems from the Pig are the only viable option, because you can't lose even the slightest bit of time, and these Gems just so happen to be on your way. As for the 4th item, the Piggybank with only 1 Yellow Gem in it is perfect to fulfill this roll: It's directly in front of you (= high success rate), and you don't lose too much Points because of the disappearing Gem. Also, the helicoptering to reduce your jumping height comes in really handy for this Combo; if you don't do that, you'll often get stuck on the wooden planks (the main reason for my dozens of fails before I applied this strategy).
Maybe you can break the Pig before killing the Hoodblaster, but that's something to test out in the future.

Now what's left is to gain as much as possible from the other objects in this room. I had to split the room up into 2 Combos: The Matuvu-Combo, and the Piggybank-Combo. Those 2 should pretty much speak for themselves; one thing I should add is that I had to refrain from taking that one Yellow Gem in the Matuvu-Combo because I needed it to keep the Piggybank-Combo going. It would have been possible to include the Hoodblaster into the Matuvu-Combo instead, but then I would've had problems compensating those 100 additional Points with the other Combo. And may I add, you CAN play the Piggybank-Combo with the Vortex, but due to forcefully having to act cautiously around the Red Gem, you lose a fair share of time there - I have never once succeeded in getting to the Hoodblaster quickly enough. However, one can still win 240 Points for the Piggybanks that way.

I just finished CF2 with 52.099 Points (lost almost 2k because I ruined it on the Matuvu-Tribelle-Combo), and I can't say I'm not satisfied with that. I'm gonna play CF3 without the Mushroom-Trick now - that should provide an interesting challenge as well.

P.S.: Sorry, I have a tendency to make a whole freaking story out of everything I say.

hmm... you people make me think.

one question: what is mgs discovery? i dont know what that is

you are talking to each other and that is really good. you arent many people, talking is not hard so you must do that. its the best thing to do as long as you can. and i give you a chance. i delete my points. i dont want it. my points are not for me making the world record holder, they did what they must do. so i will leave this thread and watch from outside. maybe i come back at some point but i dont care about rayman 3 so hard. but be aware and dont forget me

MG = Mountain Goat, and MG's discovery is a bug which works only on PC. By pressing Alt + F4 (or however else you quit the game) when the Level-Score is announced (that screen with the 5 funny stars), it saves your level Points, but when you re-start the game, it starts you on the same part again. So, if you play Longest Shortcut, Part 1, and get 27k Points, you can Alt + F4 at the end, and if you restart, you'll be back to Part 1, but still with 27k. You can get over 100.000 Points in every level that way.

Sorry for the double posting, but could someone please ban Mirage's HoF-Code or something (in case the Score wasn't legit, if it is, that's another story)? There's people in the HoF with the same Score - which obviously doesn't belong to them - and since timoo has been on there for several days already, it seems like he's not intending to delete it himself (or forgot, but either way, it's the same in the end). It seems like Mirage himself doesn't really care (correct me if I'm wrong), so it shouldn't be too much of a problem.

Finished FC with 48.820 points. I guess that's not terrible.

Congratulations, seems like a really good Score to me.

Does someone know what happens to the Combo-Mode during the cutscene after defeating Master Kaag? It seems like he gives only a 2-Seconds-Timeframe (which runs out in some kind of "Pre-Cutscene"), and I would be interested in knowing what happened if I managed to kill a Slapdash, then quickly kill him in Combo, and get to the actual Cutscene before the Combo-Mode runs out. Unfortunately, I can't test this out myself at the moment.

Sorry, I can't really help you since it's always different. You would have to kill Master Kaag within 4 seconds after killing the Slapdash if you want to have a longer combo-time than usual since a Slapdash's combo lasts 360 frames (6 seconds) and Master Kaag's only 120 frames (2 seconds).

Do we consider the case Mirage now "solved"?

(sorry, this post is quite long)

Some days ago i looked into HH3. That´s the result:
I´ll start with the final combo:
The final combo might be either the one, Cut described (1: Make a SJ to reach the platform with the tribelle, take there everything, fall down, continue with the hoodlums, the matuvu, the piggybank and the gems under the hooks) or you could play the combo with a changed beginning (2: Break the piggybank, take the gems, kill the hoodboom, convert the lum, perform a SJ to reach the platform with the tribelle, take there everything, fall down, take the yellow gem, jump on the next platform, take the gem, kill the hoodblaster, continue as described above).
PYYYR|RRHLY|YYYYY|YTYYY|HLYHL,RELYY,YYMaEY,YYRRR,YY
I don´t really like this variant, since you have to perform a SJ while playing a combo, but it yields many points.

For following calculations i´ll assume that the final combo is possible and that the powerup will last long enough (i haven´t tried the combos above yet).
I´ll also assume that my calculations in part 1 and 2 are right (86110 points after part 2 with the harder version of the 3rd room combo; 85090 points after part 2 with the easier version of the 3rd room combo)

Variant 1 - points:
Points you can get in part 3 before playing the final combo: 11180
Points from the final combo: Basic: 3500; Combo: 13200
Since the last item is a yellow gem, the maximum is: 100009 + 13200 = 113209
Points you need before playing the final combo: 100009 - 3500 = 96509
Points you must have after part 2: 96509 - 11180 = 85329
Points you may lose, when you´ll play the harder version of the 3rd room combo: 86110 - 85329 = 781
Points you must find, when you´ll play the easier version of the 3rd room combo: 85329 - 85090 = 239 --> 240 points

--> That means, that 113209 points in HH should be possible. If you could convert that lum in the warehouse combo (part 1) and get more gems in the secret room with the vortex, or if you could improve the third room combo in HH2, you should be allowed to use the easier version of the 3rd room combo.
Note: This calculations are made for players, who are not using the IPG or the lums glitch, but they must be able to get the heckler for 2500 combo points.
With the lums glitch the maximum might be higher.

Variant 2 - points:
Points you can get in part 3 before playing the final combo: 10080
Points from the final combo: Basic: 3700; Combo: 15460
Since the last item is a yellow gem, the maximum is: 100009 + 15460 = 115469
Points you need before playing the final combo: 100009 - 3700 = 96309
Points you must have after part 2: 96309 - 10080 = 86229
Points you must find, when you´ll play the harder version of the 3rd room combo: 86229 - 86110 = 119 --> 120

--> That means, that 115469 points in HH should be possible, If you could convert that lum in the warehouse combo (part 1) OR get more gems in the secret room with the vortex OR improve the third room combo in HH2.
Note: See note above.

Maybe you could convert the lum from the last elite monger too. In that case the maximum should be 100 points higher.

If someone wants to go for the maximum, he might maybe use an improved 3rd room combo. The difference to the "old" version would be, that you´d kill only two hoodblaster in the beginning. YYYYY|YYYHL|HMuYRG|YRRYE|YYYYY,HMa
When the "old" version works, this combo should work until the 20th item too.
As far as i know, i could take the gems in the secret room, roll off, kill the elite monger, renew the vortex and get the yellow gems in time. Killing the hoodblaster and taking the matuvu in combo is probably possible as well, so i guess it should work completely.
Sadly it doesn´t include the red gem near the elite monger (except if you could roll off the secret room, take the gem and then killl this hoodlum), so you´d have to either take it outside of a combo or, if you could influence where black lums are flying away, convert the lum from the hoodblaster committed suicide just before taking this gem.


A question i wanted to ask longer time ago already:
Why does following not work (or does it work?): (BOM6) Weaken razoff until the next six hits will kill him. Hit him five times and defeat him with the sixth hit (score: 101499 + 6800 =108299)
As far as i know, the sixth hit won´t reduce razoffs life, but why?

About the Heckler in HH2: I´ve made a few tests and I could kill him after two "tries" (the shield has to be only two times up). I guess that means, that it´s possible for me to kill him for 2500 points or not?

Cut wrote:Finished FC with 48.820 points. I guess that's not terrible.

Congratulations, that´s a good score! What will you improve next? I guess CF or HH.

By the way, Maz, how are you doing with your no-glitch-project. I guess in some places it´s quite an interesting challenge (like CF2) .
I also guess that 100k in BOM won´t be possible any more (at least no annoying razoff glitch). Is actually the razoff glitch/trick in part 6 a glitch in your eyes?

In HH3, did you consider that you can neither get the Heckler nor the Hoodoo since they don't spawn? Also that you can't get all gems from the hooks since you have to use them earlier?

But yeah, I will play HH next and try to get 38k after part 1.

I haven't fully looked into your ideas thus I might have got many things wrong but I will take a look into HH3 soon anyway.

1234 wrote:Why does following not work (or does it work?): (BOM6) Weaken razoff until the next six hits will kill him. Hit him five times and defeat him with the sixth hit (score: 101499 + 6800 =108299)

first of all, you can't overcap the score with Razoff's killing points for some weird reason (otherwise everybody would have 101.499 there and I wouldn't have wasted 4 weeks in BOM6 trying for 101.299). 2nd, the combo of Razoff's killing points doesn't tick in before the level ends. I have looked for a way to somehow delay the game so that the combo can tick in (i mean, that would still be at least 106.899 points) but I haven't succeeded. But you shouldn't take my 15 minutes of trying as evidence that it definetly doesn't work.

And how hilarious would it be if everyone had to try for 6 hits

Cut wrote:In HH3, did you consider that you can neither get the Heckler nor the Hoodoo since they don't spawn? Also that you can't get all gems from the hooks since you have to use them earlier?

Yes, i didn´t include the Heckler and the Hoodo into the calculations.
But why do i have to take some gems under the hooks before? One gem you have to take in order to reach the platform with the hoodboom, but what about the other?

Cut wrote:first of all, you can't overcap the score with Razoff's killing points for some weird reason (otherwise everybody would have 101.499 there and I wouldn't have wasted 4 weeks in BOM6 trying for 101.299). 2nd, the combo of Razoff's killing points doesn't tick in before the level ends. I have looked for a way to somehow delay the game so that the combo can tick in (i mean, that would still be at least 106.899 points) but I haven't succeeded. But you shouldn't take my 15 minutes of trying as evidence that it definetly doesn't work.

And how hilarious would it be if everyone had to try for 6 hits

Oh yeah, that's right, thanks.

1234 wrote: Some days ago i looked into HH3. That´s the result:
[...]

Sick stuff.

Not gonna lie though, these sound horrible to play (especially with the SJ in the middle of a Combo), but if you can get 115k this way, go ahead!

1234 wrote: If someone wants to go for the maximum, he might maybe use an improved 3rd room combo. The difference to the "old" version would be, that you´d kill only two hoodblaster in the beginning. YYYYY|YYYHL|HMuYRG|YRRYE|YYYYY,HMa
When the "old" version works, this combo should work until the 20th item too.
As far as i know, i could take the gems in the secret room, roll off, kill the elite monger, renew the vortex and get the yellow gems in time. Killing the hoodblaster and taking the matuvu in combo is probably possible as well, so i guess it should work completely.
Sadly it doesn´t include the red gem near the elite monger (except if you could roll off the secret room, take the gem and then killl this hoodlum), so you´d have to either take it outside of a combo or, if you could influence where black lums are flying away, convert the lum from the hoodblaster committed suicide just before taking this gem.

It would be really cool if you could make a video that shows how you make the connection between Gem-Elite Monger-Gem, because I've never been able to do that, and going by my attempts, I'd have said with 100% certainity that it's impossible.
Furthermore, DTUCC has made a video of an old version of getting everything in the 3rd room in one Combo. If you were indeed able to take the Matuvu, as you can see in the video, you should be able to get the Red Gem into the Combo as well.

1234 wrote: A question i wanted to ask longer time ago already:
Why does following not work (or does it work?): (BOM6) Weaken razoff until the next six hits will kill him. Hit him five times and defeat him with the sixth hit (score: 101499 + 6800 =108299)
As far as i know, the sixth hit won´t reduce razoffs life, but why?

One: You can't get those extra 1.500 Points from Razoff. Otherwise, it would be "easy" to get 101.499; however, I was told that DTUCC tested this only to find out that it just doesn't work.
Two: I once managed to hit Razoff once, and then kill him in Combo. The problem is that Razoff - like almost every other boss enemy - gives 6 seconds of Combo-Time, and those don't expire before the cutscene's finished.

1234 wrote: By the way, Maz, how are you doing with your no-glitch-project. I guess in some places it´s quite an interesting challenge (like CF2)

My stuff on CF2 was posted above.
I'm currently in CF4 with 94.932 Points; that's why I asked whether you could kill a Slapdash before Master Kaag, and then keep the Combo going after the cutscene. If so, that would allow for a No-Glitch-Maximum of 111.789.

What are you currently working on, besides HH3? I'm expecting you to pass the 860k at some point, you know?

I also guess that 100k in BOM won´t be possible any more (at least no annoying razoff glitch). Is actually the razoff glitch/trick in part 6 a glitch in your eyes?

From my editor - I wrote this in case it was ever needed, and it's my guideline for this savegame; basically my very personal definition of a Glitch in Rayman 3:

Maz wrote: There are 3 things which apply to Glitches on quite a few occasions. Out of these 3, at least 2 must be fulfilled in order for an action to be classified as a Glitch.

1.) A Glitch is a mechanism which defies the game's rules.
2.) A Glitch requires triggering or preperation of some kind without using in-game helping tools.
3.) A Glitch is a lucky occurence.

Out of these 3, the first one must always be fulfilled; if an action does not break the intended game mechanics, it can not be referred to as a Glitch.

The second one requires explaination: in-game help is, for example, provided by turtles; it is possible to stand on top of them, and it is possible to move them around. While the rule of breaking the game's mechanics (namely by reaching places you're not normally supposed to reach) may be fulfilled on some occasions, and preperations are indeed necessary, in-game tools are used to break the first rule - a.k.a., "in-game help" is provided - thus, it does not count as a Glitch.

The third one is best explained with an example: The Hoodblaster in Part 3 of "The Bog of Murk". Clearly, the programmers intended that Hoodblaster to fall victim to the Muddibogs attacks, yet sometimes, the stones won't hit him. As such, his survival means breaking the game's mechanics, and since it obviously depends on luck, the third point is fulfilled. With 2 out of 3 holding true, it is thus to be regarded as a Glitch.

An exception is to be made for the Lum-Glitch; due to the amount of Lums converted being completely random, having to convert just one Lum every time is an impossible thing to ask of Console-Players.

Identifying a Glitch due to being a lucky occurence was required because of situations like this, where neither triggers or preparations are a necessity, yet it is completely obvious.

For BOM6, the first 2 rules are fulfilled in my eyes:
- The game is broken by hitting Razoff multiple times, even though he was clearly intended to fall of after each hit.
- Preparations without in-game helping tools have to be made by luring him into the right spot.

So yes, I think it does count as a Glitch. And yes, 100k Points in BOM are obviously impossible without Glitches.

Edit: Damn, Cut beat me to it!

Maz wrote:Sick stuff.
Not gonna lie though, these sound horrible to play (especially with the SJ in the middle of a Combo), but if you can get 115k this way, go ahead!

It doesn´t only sound horrible, it is horrible. That´s why i´ve never tried it seriously. Nevertheless i´m convinced, that it´s possible. I mean you have 6 sec from the hoodboom and in this time you "only" have to perform this SJ and eventually convert the lum from this hoodboom. Still, i won´t play by this way. I mean in my eyes it´s just a matter of luck, whether you get launched high enough or not and that´s not the way i like to play.
At least we have a thoretical new maximum, that´s enough for me for now.

Maz wrote:It would be really cool if you could make a video that shows how you make the connection between Gem-Elite Monger-Gem,

Ok, this video shows this sequence. Since i´m not very familiar with this combo, it doesn´t look really good, but at least it shows, that it´s possible to reach the gems in time.https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xtY9wGvjGc0

Maz wrote:What are you currently working on, besides HH3? I'm expecting you to pass the 860k at some point, you know?

HH3 is actually finished already and HH (completely part 1-5) will be very soon as well (just want to test a few things yet).
Beside that i´m still trying to improve SBTC. Maybe you realized that my score is a little bit higher, than it was ~2 months ago. That´s because i could get 111070 points (weirdly i reached this score within the first 15 tries) and i submitted the score. But since i wasn´t completely satisfied, i restarted.
Until now i couldn´t hit the edge successfully again. I guess i just had beginner´s luck.
So that´s what i´ll do in the next time.
Beside that i´m working on my own combo sheet from time to time. I´m doing this, because i need it a little bit more detailed (maybe i´ve made it a little too detailed (~20 sites for FC with lots of tables). At least it contains now everything i want to know about the combos. Also luckily there is "copy and paste" so it´s not that much work).

Apropos combo sheet, that are the points for HH2 and HH3:
HH2:
First Room Combo: 3020 - 10400 - 13420
Shelter: 60 - 0 - 60
Second Room Combo: 5240 - 14820 - 20060
Black Lum: 20 - 0 - 20
Third Room Combo: 5280 - 16440 - 21720 (That aren´t the points for the "new" combo yet)
Gem Combo (remaining gems): 140 - 160 - 300
HH3:
Single Gems on the boxes: 3*(20 - 0 - 20)
Single Gem under the hook: 20 - 0 - 20
1st Gem Combo: 440 - 1140 - 1580 (Break the cage quite at the top, take the gems, fall down and take the six gems quite near the hoodboom)
2nd Gem Combo: 700 - 2080 - 2780 (Break the piggybank near the tribelle, take the gems, fall down, take the four yellow gems, roll off and helicopter to the nearby 12 gems. Take them)
Secret Room Combo: 620 - 1660 - 2280
Third Gem combo: 160 - 200 - 360 (Take the 5 yellow gems near the conveyor, roll off and take the red gem in combo)
Green Gem: 3000 - 0 - 3000

By the way, how are you doing with your combo sheet, Cut? I couldn´t open this sheet for some time past, so i don´t know your progress. When will this sheet be online again?

Maz wrote:There are 3 things which apply to Glitches on quite a few occasions.[...]

That´s a good definition.
Still, it´d be hilarious, if your hoodblaster survived (BOM3) and you´d have to restart.

1234 wrote:By the way, how are you doing with your combo sheet, Cut? I couldn´t open this sheet for some time past, so i don´t know your progress. When will this sheet be online again?

Oh god, please don't remind me... haven't done shit in the past weeks. I feel terrible now

I don´t want to be questioning, but why do you feel terrible, if i may ask, and why shouldn´t i remind you of the combo sheet? (Sorry that i´ve reminded you again )

By the way, do someone know, why the Heckler in HH2 doesn´t give you always points? Sometimes i can kill him in combo (actually), but often i don´t get any points for him.

Because I really have to get my ass up and finish that. No worries, doesn't have anything to do with you^^
It's a queston of timing, when you kill him while is shield has almost fallen back down, he won't give you any points because you hit the Heckler and he takes damage but then the shield falls down and the game thinks you hit the shield which of course gives no points.