Rayman 4 (Phoenix Studio)

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Re: Rayman 4 twitter thread

Post by ItzalDrake »

His tweets are available now, you can read all the story
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Rayman 4 twitter thread

Post by PluMGMK »

Lemme repost them all here for posterity:
Seeing as I have time this morning and have been left rather negative feeling in regards to this topic I feel its about time to talk.

Here's what's been going on with my research involving the Rayman franchise over the last year or so, grab a snack & drink then read on I suppose
As some may have known or have figured out by now I've been researching what exactly happened to both iterations of games titled Rayman 4 while under development.

Primarily people in private knew I was researching the Phoenix game, but I also was looking into RRR's E3 iteration.
We'll start off with the Phoenix iteration first, the entire search for material & information regarding the project began at the start of this year by sheer coincidence.

I wanted to find the source of the Rayman singing Sex Bomb animation test people like to share online.
At this time I did some poking around and thanks to prior research from other fans of the series I came across a personal blog/website of an animator who listed the animation as their own work with a download link to it being broken due to the webpage being rather old.
This led me to do some further digging to finding the artist who was responsible for the animation, low and behold further digging on my own accord later I found their personal Youtube channel and other social media that they later gladly accepted me onto at the time.
After inquiring about this mysterious animation test's origins they willingly told me on their own accord that the animation was for a Rayman 3 prototype made in Lyon, France that stayed in development for at max a year with the main target platform being the Playstation 2.
This of course had me ask if it was for Phoenix's Rayman 4 project, low and behold it was. This of course led to further discussion surrounding the project, by sheer coincidence I found someone involved with a game that has eluded people for years.
From this point forward I had made it a mission to preserve any and all material I could find and that anyone involved would be willing to share with me following their own wishes/guidelines.

Much like a domino effect one contact led to another all over the place for months.
There's been a running theme of people who kept essentially all of their work on DVDs they personally archived with material from the project on them to this very day, however this is where things become a bit more unpleasant to say the least.
After making contact with the artist responsible for the Sex Bomb animation it led me to another artist involved with the project who was responsible for quite a large portion of the 3D asset building side of things, mainly in the realm of environments.
These two artists I mentioned I genuinely really like, they were more than happy to talk about their work and were quite passionate about what they were doing at the time, not to mention both of them "played nice" with me if you catch my drift as far as my own motives. =)
At the same time as me conversing to these artists had ended or was still ongoing I had yet ANOTHER artist be happy to talk about the project, this artist in particular mentioned to me someone involved with the game that was one of the main concept artists for the title.
What's noteworthy about this is that this person hasn't ever been documented to have worked on the game yet was responsible for quite a bit of conceptual work, I took this as a sign to get in touch with this person as a means to do further research.
This person in particular had quite a bit to say to me about the project and simply how excited and passionate they were about the project.

One such critical detail being Mister Dark was to be the intended villain for the game, they conceptualized redesigns of the character.
However it wasn't this clear cut as Mister Dark would have disguised himself as Dark Rayman, which of course explains why he appears the way he does visually in the concept art floating around online.
During these discussions this artist told me they had a DVD archived somewhere of ALL their work on the project that they'd happily give me all of when found and given the time.

This artist and another told me they had DVDs like this of their work archived somewhere.
The artist responsible for Mister Dark's redesign work shortly after saying this to me completely has ghosted me for months on end after showing them my own work as an artist that they inspired, I found the sudden change in behavior quite suspect and heartbreaking.
Keep this in mind for later, this is a running theme of sorts I've had with my talks towards these developers. Being ghosted, left on read, or overall complete mood changes despite me honestly doing nothing that I can critically think of that would upset these people.
As a side note before I move onto the RRR related stuff, I was recommended to talk to one of the lead designers of the project per one of the artists I spoke with so I gave it a shot as a means to understand better how the game would have played alongside storyline.
This designer while reading my messages completely ignored me at every single turn, same goes for any and all designers I attempted to contact. I practically contacted every single person involved with the game with no stone left unturned.
One thing is for certain, all the artists I asked when it came to storyline completely didn't know about the serious storyline supposedly about Rayman reconstituting a disabled boy's body parts through symbolic hallucinations with the character.
(Side note: Where did this idea come from? Sounds like it wasn't true anyway, which is probably good…)
One last side note: I did attempt to get an answer on a supposed third Rayman 4 prototype being developed around 2007-2009 at Ubisoft Montreal (I think?) according to L'Histoire De Rayman.

I inquired about who the artist was for the drastic Rayman redesign & Cielle.
The person I asked who would've known told me they can't remember as it was years ago whenever they came across the artwork, meaning yet another dead end of sorts.
That's all I can really say for the Phoenix game for now specifically, now onto the RRR related matters that have been going on which is a bit more..."spicy" to put it lightly.
I'll go ahead and use the GBA version of RRR as a segue to the home console prototype first as there were "interesting" interactions I had to say the least with people involved with this version of the title.
My main source of contact in regards to this port was a director of development for the project, they responded rather quickly on the regular for the short while we talked and here's essentially what happened with them in regards to the game.
- Rayman Raving Rabbids GBA was indeed initially was a handheld adaption of Phoenix's Rayman 4, this version of the game was apparently in their words "quite advanced at the time".

-The music for the game was supplied by Ubisoft and not V.I.P. themselves.
-The game had very minimal changes when transitioning over to the Rabbids theming, V.I.P. had little to no interaction with the core development team in Montpellier. There was a limited budget so all the core team asked V.I.P. to do was to change the enemies into Rabbids.
-V.I.P. was only given a scenario to work from for the new implementation of the Rabbids, they essentially had to make their own storyline going off of whatever scenario Ubisoft gave them at the time for the project.

-This GBA game was made in 6-8 months development time.
-The cutscene still images in the game were initially hand drawn in Photoshop and then downscaled plus compressed to be displayed on the GBA screen.
This is essentially the brunt of what I was told that was factual according to them whenever we first talked, they gave me further contacts who worked on the game that I've attempted to contact but no response whatsoever.
This is where a bit more of the personal unpleasant scenarios come up as we talk about the home console RRR prototype, so please bare with me here if you can okay?
This director of development offered to give me contact information to Ubisoft's legal department to ask if they'd be willing to give out any development materials pertaining to their IPs even if they doubted they'd give anything out.
It took a month or two to finally get back with them but after asking for the contact information their behavior completely befuddled me honestly.

They accused me of reverse engineering the GBA rom of RRR and told me I'd be exposed to Ub*soft if I ever approached them.
(Sounds like this person might have gotten a rebuke for offering to refer an outsider to Legal? I think that can be kind of a no-no in companies… Then that rebuke put them in a hostile mood…)
This absolutely ENRAGED me as firstly I showed them the unused content within the ROM due to it already being available on the internet due to other people's doing, I don't have the technical know how to do such a task plus they responded fine when I first asked about the content
With this being said let me go ahead and rewind a bit to when I first started researching RRR's E3 build.
Originally I actually started researching RRR first before the Phoenix game, the first ever developer I touched bases with was an artist for the project that has been with Ub*soft since the beginning of their 3D endeavors.
This artist was more on the private side but needless to say this artist somewhat lied to me about their recollections of the game's production, claiming such things as their was no gameplay due to Ancel being frustrating to work with at the time.
While the frustration amongst them and Ancel is true due to information I have found out later in my spare time it genuinely wasn't Ancel's fault entirely but rather quite a bit of feuding altogether mixed in with upper management interference.
Many of the developers I spoke to who worked on this project have claimed that it was one of the most stressful times they ever experienced while in the video game industry and knowing what I do now I'm not surprised this is the case.
Ub*soft according to one of the former developers I spoke to involving the Phoenix game told me that the Rabbids project literally came to light due to them wanting to push out a Rayman 4 as quickly as possible to fill the release slot initially held by Phoenix's game.
(Slightly different version of the story to what was in L'Histoire de Rayman, which is that the Wii-focused version had a short development time, but that the proper non-minigame Rabbids game had already been in development before that. Different people having different recollections I guess, but I imagine the version in the book is more accurate, given that so much prototype functionality still exists!)
You heard me right, the only reason the Rabbids were decided upon so quickly was because it was essentially their quickest solution available at the time and everyone essentially jumped into working on the project knowing there would be limited development time.
Ub*soft also didn't understand the appeal of the Rabbids at first either, I was told that the higher ups while developing the first game didn't understand the appeal and as soon as they became a success they plastered them everywhere. Internally they're even on email forms.
( :lololol: )
When it came to the feuding I mentioned prior I must say that there were quite a few difficulties that came up during the development of this game.

One such occurrence was that certain members of the studio often held grudges against Michel, this persisted even to the present.
One specific case was this artist who told me Ancel was frustrating to work with yet according to a colleague of mine who helped with both known versions of R4 this artist labeled designers as "pizza delivery men" for the artists.
This demeanor alongside this artist essentially wanting Ancel's job was one of the many problems that plagued the turnout of RRR as a whole, Ancel was quite often criticized for his "lack of having to do as much as we do" to the point where even hateful comics were made about him
(Sounds depressingly familiar… :()
I've seen a portion of these comics and they're quite disgusting and profane, this negative aura and behavior persisted all the way until he left the video game industry.

Ancel was essentially bullied out of making games & was overcame with stress with the growing industry.
One last note on Ancel before I put myself back on track, these certain people who did such things towards Michel often did over MetaCritic score jealousy at the time.

Ancel's games were better received than the other team member's at times, which fueled their negativity.
With this being said do I think Ancel is a good person when you consider the recent allegations? While what I think he did was wrong when it came to mistreating employees for BG&E 2 I felt he did it due to overwhelming stress and emotions he couldn't control.
He genuinely needed some external help to control how he felt and that's why I think he chose to step down from the industry and focus on nature, he needed that peace of mind and renewal so he wouldn't do it to anyone else.

I hope he's in a better place and bettering himself.
To pull myself back from Ancel, When it comes to securing material for preservation from RRR I've had far less success compared to Phoenix's game.

There's apparently something that someone has that the fan base let me know about but its honestly out of my hands and or control.
I'll open up a bit personally but do you want to know why I've been doing all of this research and relaying what I can to you all?
Truth be told I had very genuine intentions of contacting everyone involved with both iterations of Rayman 4, I wanted to preserve any and all material possible so that it wouldn't be lost to time and that we all collectively could have put to rest our curiosities.
I haven't said everything that I could say about these projects, however I'm not sure of the entire grand scheme of what I'm liable to say. There's quite a bit of dark revelations surrounding the project that isn't my place to go into, there's a reason the name Rayman 4 is scary.

There's more starting from https://twitter.com/FancyFather/status/ ... 8276566017 but I don't feel a need to repost the rest of it here because it's more personal to the original author.
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Re: Unseen64 to detail new revelations about Rayman 4!

Post by Hunchman801 »

Thanks a million times for sharing this, PluM. Twitter threads are such a pain in the ass to read. :roll:

The author has also shared some previous unseen renders:
For anyone who doubts my authenticity when it comes to information I'm presenting you all with these, I was given permission to distribute these from an anonymous source.

To all the people who I thought were my friends and who I could trust who treated me like shit: Fuck You.

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On a side note, I've just merged this topic with the last one used to share leaked Rayman 4 stuff. :hap:
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Re: Unseen64 to detail new revelations about Rayman 4!

Post by ChronicTraitor »

PluMGMK wrote: Fri Dec 03, 2021 11:05 pm
One thing is for certain, all the artists I asked when it came to storyline completely didn't know about the serious storyline supposedly about Rayman reconstituting a disabled boy's body parts through symbolic hallucinations with the character.
(Side note: Where did this idea come from? Sounds like it wasn't true anyway, which is probably good…)
Call me crazy, but last time I saw "It's probably not true" was when the forums were discussing the whole Jimmy backstory idea years ago, and it turned out it was actually real(years later)...I remember hearing about this backstory at some point too, and I came up with the idea that this disabled kid Rayman was helping out was supposed to be Jimmy, though that's just my nonsense. :fou:

Maybe it's not a real backstory, but I always found my idea of it entertaining.
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Re: Unseen64 to detail new revelations about Rayman 4!

Post by Retrofuge »

Since, I'm not sure if it's been posted yet. But, I could find the screenshots anymore since he privated his account unforunately. So I just set up an imgur link for what we have so far:

Here's some Rayman 4 in-game screenshots. Hopefully, it could be expanded if we get more stuff anyway.
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Re: Unseen64 to detail new revelations about Rayman 4!

Post by PluMGMK »

ChronicTraitor wrote: Sat Dec 04, 2021 5:33 am Call me crazy, but last time I saw "It's probably not true" was when the forums were discussing the whole Jimmy backstory idea years ago, and it turned out it was actually real(years later)...
I had to dig through the annals to refresh my memory on this: viewtopic.php?p=112277#p112277
Like you said, Humch didn't believe it, but it was pointed out that it had been in a Jaguar magazine (which I guess wasn't a good enough source for many…).
ChronicTraitor wrote: Sat Dec 04, 2021 5:33 amI remember hearing about this backstory at some point too, and I came up with the idea that this disabled kid Rayman was helping out was supposed to be Jimmy, though that's just my nonsense. :fou:

Maybe it's not a real backstory, but I always found my idea of it entertaining.
As in, the character of Jimmy was revived after being scrapped, but with a different purpose?
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Re: Unseen64 to detail new revelations about Rayman 4!

Post by Droolie »

Most of Fancy Father's images are renders from 3ds max rather than in-game or in-engine screenshots, and all of these are as well. Especially the ones with a border or with the camera text in the top left -- those are 3ds max viewport screenshots. The Picture City image also looks like a 3ds max viewport screenshot of an unfinished version of this render: https://raymanpc.com/wiki/script-en/ima ... yman_4.png
ChronicTraitor wrote: Sat Dec 04, 2021 5:33 am
PluMGMK wrote: Fri Dec 03, 2021 11:05 pm
One thing is for certain, all the artists I asked when it came to storyline completely didn't know about the serious storyline supposedly about Rayman reconstituting a disabled boy's body parts through symbolic hallucinations with the character.
(Side note: Where did this idea come from? Sounds like it wasn't true anyway, which is probably good…)
Call me crazy, but last time I saw "It's probably not true" was when the forums were discussing the whole Jimmy backstory idea years ago, and it turned out it was actually real(years later)...I remember hearing about this backstory at some point too, and I came up with the idea that this disabled kid Rayman was helping out was supposed to be Jimmy, though that's just my nonsense. :fou:

Maybe it's not a real backstory, but I always found my idea of it entertaining.
Fancy Father's description of that idea is correct, and it was the version of Rayman 4 that eventually became Rayman Raving Rabbids -- not the Phoenix version. Hubert Chevillard describes the idea here: https://youtu.be/pcQjA9rrT50?t=62

L'Histoire de Rayman describes a bit more:
After King Kong was completed, Phoenix Studio's version of Rayman 4 was cancelled and Ubisoft Montpellier's Rayman 4 began production (it had already been in preproduction for a while). The idea was to create an semi-open-world game for PS2. Rayman had to use different means of movement to explore the universe (eagle, spider...). Yes, the animal riding mechanic was already implemented at the time. (Judging from the tone of the story I assume the more wacky mechanics such as Rayman's kung-fu moveset and dancing were added along with the rabbids.)
Internally, this version was called Rayman 4, and sometimes Rayman Adventures. (seriously, they kept reusing this title for every new Rayman thing since 2000 :p)

In l'Histoire de Rayman, the same Hubert Chevillard clarifies: "The story was about a boy in a hospital who had been in an accident, and everything was shown in a realistic way. The boy would piece together his bruised body in dreamlike and symbolic sequences with Rayman, the character without arms or legs. The objective of the game would be to reconstruct the boy's body (legs, arms, etc.). But one day, Michel Ancel said to us: 'Guys, forget the accident! The rabbits have lived underground for a long time, in their burrows, hiding from people. They come back to the surface and they are not happy!' The leopard could not change his spots, and our dreams went to the dumpster... The joys of production, in short."
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Re: Unseen64 to detail new revelations about Rayman 4!

Post by PluMGMK »

Yes, I only re-read that a few months ago, and yet I forgot about it :oops2:
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Re: Unseen64 to detail new revelations about Rayman 4!

Post by Marx-Y »

so, The infamous Rayman sing sex bomb test was actually intended for Rayman 3, really the date exactly of said test when was made is unknown yet?

for some reason many info about the Phoenix's project has things about the 2007 project, including the concept arts. I thinking the 2007 project need don't be confused with the Phoenix's project, although its info is very low and looks similar.

I don't surprise that the GBA version was intended for be a handheld version of the Phoenix project by so much similar concept like world and enemies. maybe is unknown when was decided the idea for add the Rabbids to that version, but maybe was little late, plus considering that the development take just 6-8 mouths, that few time for do that changes do possible found leftover that looks more resembles to concept art from the Phoenix's project, like the home console of RRR that by the decision for do the change very late make possible found leftovers of the original project mechanics in it. also, the DS version do mentions about Dark Rayman in some unused dialogues, so, considered this version is a side-scroller like the GBA, maybe the DS will be based in the phoenix's project, although that looks also resemble to the Montpellier's project.
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Re: Unseen64 to detail new revelations about Rayman 4!

Post by PluMGMK »

Marx-Y wrote: Sat Dec 04, 2021 9:09 pm so, The infamous Rayman sing sex bomb test was actually intended for Rayman 3, really the date exactly of said test when was made is unknown yet?
I'm pretty sure that's a typo, since the very next tweet refers to Rayman 4, which would be a complete non-sequitur if it really were Rayman 3.
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Re: Unseen64 to detail new revelations about Rayman 4!

Post by ChronicTraitor »

Droolie wrote: Sat Dec 04, 2021 8:16 pm In l'Histoire de Rayman, the same Hubert Chevillard clarifies: "The story was about a boy in a hospital who had been in an accident, and everything was shown in a realistic way. The boy would piece together his bruised body in dreamlike and symbolic sequences with Rayman, the character without arms or legs. The objective of the game would be to reconstruct the boy's body (legs, arms, etc.). But one day, Michel Ancel said to us: 'Guys, forget the accident! The rabbits have lived underground for a long time, in their burrows, hiding from people. They come back to the surface and they are not happy!' The leopard could not change his spots, and our dreams went to the dumpster... The joys of production, in short."
Ah so it was real up to a point...Course it got changed by Mr. Ancel into the whole Rabbids thing. I can't read French but have the L'Histoire de Rayman book anywho, so I wouldn't had known it was for the other version of Rayman 4 that became Rabbids. Thanks for clearing that up Droolie!
PluMGMK wrote: Sat Dec 04, 2021 12:24 pm As in, the character of Jimmy was revived after being scrapped, but with a different purpose?
Yeah pretty much. The idea of a kid being connected to Rayman (who's adventuring in a different world than the real one) feels very similar to the whole Jimmy/Rayman/Hereitscool idea to me.
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Re: Unseen64 to detail new revelations about Rayman 4!

Post by Hunchman801 »

Retrofuge wrote: Sat Dec 04, 2021 12:01 pm Since, I'm not sure if it's been posted yet. But, I could find the screenshots anymore since he privated his account unforunately. So I just set up an imgur link for what we have so far:

Here's some Rayman 4 in-game screenshots. Hopefully, it could be expanded if we get more stuff anyway.
Thanks Retro, they can also be found in the allegedly leaked 3D renders section of the Rayman 4 (cancelled prototype) article.
PluMGMK wrote: Sat Dec 04, 2021 12:24 pm
ChronicTraitor wrote: Sat Dec 04, 2021 5:33 am Call me crazy, but last time I saw "It's probably not true" was when the forums were discussing the whole Jimmy backstory idea years ago, and it turned out it was actually real(years later)...
I had to dig through the annals to refresh my memory on this: viewtopic.php?p=112277#p112277
Like you said, Humch didn't believe it, but it was pointed out that it had been in a Jaguar magazine (which I guess wasn't a good enough source for many…).
Indeed, it was my first time hearing about it. It really makes me appreciate how much this place has helped consolidate Rayman knowledge, and this for almost two decades now. :)
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Re: Unseen64 to detail new revelations about Rayman 4!

Post by hoodlumsworld »

Thanks for sharing those new leaked renders, maybe this will encourage developers to share more from now on? It's already the second leak.
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Re: Unseen64 to detail new revelations about Rayman 4!

Post by Retrofuge »

I know it might be the most important news, but it seems like the original poster, FancyFather has removed all the renders and screenshots. It's a great shame to be honest. It's good thing, we got everything perserved. Leakers tend to remove these things but never archive them. Ah well, we got all the information now for people to see.
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Re: Unseen64 to detail new revelations about Rayman 4!

Post by Mortamon Saturn »

A concept art just got shared as well: https://twitter.com/RaymanFacts/status/ ... 1520061446

Rayman 4 concept art.jpg
Rayman 4 concept art.jpg (164.13 KiB) Viewed 3347 times
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Re: Unseen64 to detail new revelations about Rayman 4!

Post by Elite Piranha »

What is that enemy Rayman is fighting with? The concept art is really cool, I wonder how the Bigfoot power up would have been obtained.
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Re: Unseen64 to detail new revelations about Rayman 4!

Post by Hunchman801 »

Very interesting stuff, thanks for sharing Rayman Saturn. Anybody know the source of this, though?

Bigfoot Rayman is nothing new, but it's great to see the enemy below in more detail. Looks the same as the dudes we can see on those renders:

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But more importantly, it looks like it ended up being recycled as a hunter in the GBA version:

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Re: Unseen64 to detail new revelations about Rayman 4!

Post by Mortamon Saturn »

Hunchman801 wrote: Mon Dec 13, 2021 6:51 pm Very interesting stuff, thanks for sharing Rayman Saturn. Anybody know the source of this, though?
According to RaymanFacts, the source is secret, so it’s most likely a developer who decided to share this anonymously.
Rayman Facts’ tweet showing the four renders shared by Fancy Father got a lot of attention so I suppose it may have been noticed by a former developer.
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Re: Unseen64 to detail new revelations about Rayman 4!

Post by boomboleros7 »

Wow, they planned some nice animations for these characters! :o

Interesting enemy, he also reminds me the Hunters of RRR GBA, and the Section Alpha in Beyond Good and Evil. And Rigatoni too, with his bald head and the tailcoat he wears under his armor.
These enemies look less robotic on the concept arts than on the 3D images, too.
And what about this X on the armor? Could they be Dark Rayman soldiers? I know the Dark Rayman from Arena has a white cross on his shirt, but did we already saw the Dark Rayman from R4 with a cross?
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Re: Unseen64 to detail new revelations about Rayman 4!

Post by Hunchman801 »

Well, I have updated the wiki to cover those findings.
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