Religion – your views

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Does God exist?

Yeah
47
31%
Nope
66
43%
Maybe
39
26%
 
Total votes: 152

Keane
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Re: Religion – your views

Post by Keane »

deton24 wrote:
There are absolutely people who murder, rob, lie, betray, etc, and think they're good Christian folks.
Trolling, joking, or lack of respect?
What are you try to demonstrate?
For me as a Christian it's absolutely non sense, and offensive.

The thing which your demonstrate is just epistemology.
It's dead end of lot of contemporary modern societies.
For you as a Christian, yes. But my point stands unchallenged, interpretation of what's justified can always be interpreted differently even by people who follow the same code. I'm a very vocal supporter of leftist politics but think the people going around trying to silence and censor everything to fit their safe-space agenda, and believing everything needs to comply with their set of rules even if it means putting a limit on free speech, are kind of really insufferable cunts. But chances are those people would probably tell you to vote the same officials into office as me, we'd both endorse liberal viewpoints over conservative ones, etc.

My point is, looking at the extremist of any group and judging the group based off that experience is wrong, but it's also wrong to dismiss them and forget that they are, still, a member of said group. Not every Christian wants to "beat the gay out of the kids" like Pat Robertson, and not every Muslim wants to bomb your ass off, but the ones who do, do so believing they're actually right, and it's God's will in their eyes.

And so taking that in mind, a clear cut interpretation of a certain moral code that everyone obeys in the same way, just doesn't add up to me. If someone can commit crimes and believes they're actually righteous, how does a God judge that? Yes, most examples I can provide often have a logical conclusion as to there being a side that's just simply right (Pat Robertson and terrorists are fucking shitlords), but the whole reason people commit these acts is because of their ignorance towards that logic and their solid believe that their long-term goal will prove them right. When Pat Robertson dies, he believes God is going to thank him for being an everythingphobic little bitch. So what would God do? Sentence him to the fire pits for doing what he thought God wanted from him?
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Re: Religion – your views

Post by Ambidextroid »

@ad I guess I could see that happening, but I don't understand why when you've been brought up with some belief it is so hard to use reasonable logic and see that it doesn't make sense. I guess it's as though it's been chizzled into your brain like it was common knowledge so it's difficult to even start thinking about the possibility of it being untrue.
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Re: Religion – your views

Post by Dart »

Adsolution wrote:
dartofthedavros wrote:but I don't believe in science either, like Darwin's theory of evolution
Uh oh.
Oh yeah, the boys coming running when they find that out about me :hehe:
Xenon wrote:If you aren't religious, why not believe in evolution? It's no more a theory than the world is spherical. Seems like you're falling into the trap of seeing "science" and religion as two opposing entities, and plucking for the safe middle option.
Well I don't believe in it due to it being a theory, not because I believe it's an "opposite." I'm just one of those people that gets by better without believing in any concievable reasoning to our existence.
Bradandez wrote:If Evolution is true, how come there's still monkeys? Explain that, you fucking atheistic retards.
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Re: Religion – your views

Post by Ambidextroid »

It's not the same sort of theory as the big bang, it's the kind of theory like the theory of gravity.
It's pretty much an accepted fact that evolution took place; the only reason it's called a theory is because we can't prove it. To do that we would literally need to build a time machine. It's like how you can't really prove gravity, if that makes sense. But if you believe what science says about gravity, there's no reason not to believe in evolution. The evidence is pretty much overwhelming.
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Re: Religion – your views

Post by PluMGMK »

"Evolution" is not a theory, it's an observed fact. It is a fact that fossils show changes occurring in species; it is most certainly a fact that bacteria have become resistant to antibiotics over the past half-century or so. The only "theory" is the explanation for why it occurred/is occurring.

The best damn theory for this is Darwin's natural selection, albeit with some modifications. Not exactly sure what you mean by "reasoning to our existence", but according to this theory, our existence is essentially an accident, or series thereof. It's basically due to random mutations that built up. Those mutations that were conducive to an organism's survival and reproduction, logically, were preserved, while others were not. This agonizingly slow process led to the evolution that is observed to have occurred. This does not imply any purpose (if that's what you mean by "reasoning", though I might be mistaken) to the existence of any species, it's basically statistics.
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Re: Religion – your views

Post by Adsolution »

PluMGMK wrote:Seems when he said "no more a theory" he meant "no less a fact". Whereas I assume when you said "no less a theory" you meant "no worse a theory". Just wanted to (try to) clear that up.
Ah, thanks. Though if that's the case, I find Xen's wording to be misleading, since it implies that science is the one with the misnomer.

Ambidextroid wrote:the only reason it's called a theory is because we can't prove it. To do that we would literally need to build a time machine.
Not true, we have directly observed evolution on many occasions, we don't need a time machine. The only reason people still choose to dismiss the theory with all of this evidence is because they create a distinction between "micro-" and "macro-" evolutuon, which is beyond retarded as those are completely subjective terms, not to mention there is absolutely zero logic behind the idea that only "micro-evolution" is possible. The burden is proof rests with the one proposing this limitation.
Ambidextroid wrote:it's the kind of theory like the theory of gravity.
Gravity is not a theory, it's a law. The difference between a law and a theory is that a law is an assertation of outcome - "this will happen". As we do not have an explanation for gravity, only confirmation of its existence, there is no theory of gravity. To contrast, we have a plethora of evidence support our explanation (theory) for evolution. If we didn't, there would be no theory, and we would have no right to argue against creationism aside from it being a stupid hypothesis because it provides no evidence.
dartofthedavros wrote:Well I don't believe in it due to it being a theory
The word "theory" simply refers to the explanation of an observed phenomenon. Whether the theory is correct does not change the fact that the pehnomenon has been observed. However, in science, in order for something to be considered a theory, it needs to have passed through the rigorous testing of the scientific method and emerge with a perfect score. In essence, it's a virtually flawless explanation.

People often confuse the words "theory" and "hypothesis"; the latter refers to an untested or only partially tested conjecture, which is usually what they equate "theory" with.
dartofthedavros wrote:I'm just one of those people that gets by better without believing in any concievable reasoning to our existence.
Like Plum asked, what do you mean by "reasoning to our existence"? Are you referring to the series of events that lead up to our species existing as it does today, or the existential question "why are we here?"

If the latter, that's a nonsense question and has nothing to do with evolution. If the former, in what way do you "get by better" by pretending species don't/didn't evolve? Does the idea somehow upset you? I literally can't think of a single reason as to why it would.

Additionally, I'm incredibly curious what you do think the state of our species was long ago. Do you think humans have always existed (even since the beginning of time - this makes no sense), or that they came into being via divine intervention (despite the fact you aren't religious)? What other options are there?

I can understand a theist not believing in evolution, because it contradicts scripture. But I cannot for the life of me fathom what might be going through your head.
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Re: Religion – your views

Post by Dart »

Adsolution wrote:
dartofthedavros wrote:Well I don't believe in it due to it being a theory
The word "theory" simply refers to the explanation of an observed phenomenon. Whether the theory is correct does not change the fact that the pehnomenon has been observed. However, in science, in order for something to be considered a theory, it needs to have passed through the rigorous testing of the scientific method and emerge with a perfect score. In essence, it's a virtually flawless explanation.

People often confuse the words "theory" and "hypothesis"; the latter refers to an untested or only partially tested conjecture, which is usually what they equate "theory" with.
dartofthedavros wrote:I'm just one of those people that gets by better without believing in any concievable reasoning to our existence.
Like Plum asked, what do you mean by "reasoning to our existence"? Are you referring to the series of events that lead up to our species existing as it does today, or the existential question "why are we here?"

If the latter, that's a nonsense question and has nothing to do with evolution. If the former, in what way do you "get by better" by pretending species don't/didn't evolve? Does the idea somehow upset you? I literally can't think of a single reason as to why it would.

Additionally, I'm incredibly curious what you do think the state of our species was long ago. Do you think humans have always existed (even since the beginning of time - this makes no sense), or that they came into being via divine intervention (despite the fact you aren't religious)? What other options are there?

I can understand a theist not believing in evolution, because it contradicts scripture. But I cannot for the life of me fathom what might be going through your head.
It's entirely the former. The reason I say I don't believe in evolution is because it was was never taught to me in a way that was comprehensible, except for punnet squares. So when I say I don't believe in it, it comes from a lack of understanding of the subject matter, and that sciences are rarely brought to me in a way I can actually learn them. Hell, most of what I have learned of science comes from Bill Nye so I wouldn't call myself very knowledgeable on this stuff at all, in the same way someone isn't very knowledgeable of the bible if they've only skimmed the book of John.

As for the state of our species from a long time ago, I couldn't tell you. All I know is the earth has always been pushing the reset button for all it's life (Or at least I think that was it), and other species existed before us or something. Back when I used to believe in the bible it told me that we were clay given life, but to me that seems just as impossible as being a distant relative to gorillas and monkeys (or as I called it earlier, the "conceivable reason to our existance"), simply because nothing's been made comprehensible to me, and I don't let it bug me because it happened so long ago.

Sorry if this confuses you all, I just came back from my 2nd surgery for my jaw advancement and my words are coming out a bit incoherent. :oops2:
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Re: Religion – your views

Post by Ambidextroid »

Adsolution wrote:
Ambidextroid wrote:the only reason it's called a theory is because we can't prove it. To do that we would literally need to build a time machine.
Not true, we have directly observed evolution on many occasions, we don't need a time machine. The only reason people still choose to dismiss the theory with all of this evidence is because they create a distinction between "micro-" and "macro-" evolutuon, which is beyond retarded as those are completely subjective terms, not to mention there is absolutely zero logic behind the idea that only "micro-evolution" is possible. The burden is proof rests with the one proposing this limitation.
I was referring to the theory that Darwin's "survival of the fittest" is the process by which we came to be. We can prove that it happens, yes, but we can't prove that that's the reason we are around today, hence why religious people use the argument that "it's only a theory" to defend the idea of intelligent design.
Adsolution wrote:
Ambidextroid wrote:it's the kind of theory like the theory of gravity.
Gravity is not a theory, it's a law. The difference between a law and a theory is that a law is an assertation of outcome - "this will happen". As we do not have an explanation for gravity, only confirmation of its existence, there is no theory of gravity. To contrast, we have a plethora of evidence support our explanation (theory) for evolution. If we didn't, there would be no theory, and we would have no right to argue against creationism aside from it being a stupid hypothesis because it provides no evidence.
Here I was talking about the theory of general relativity, I just said the theory of gravity to simplify it a bit and make a better comparison for my argument (which, now that I look back, was silly of me to word it like that I admit)
dartofthedavros wrote:As for the state of our species from a long time ago, I couldn't tell you. All I know is the earth has always been pushing the reset button for all it's life (Or at least I think that was it), and other species existed before us or something. Back when I used to believe in the bible it told me that we were clay given life, but to me that seems just as impossible as being a distant relative to gorillas and monkeys (or as I called it earlier, the "conceivable reason to our existance"), simply because nothing's been made comprehensible to me, and I don't let it bug me because it happened so long ago.
Actually it's pretty simple, it's just that it can be hard to describe without a visual aid. I would recommend you watch this video, even if it won't change your opinion you might find it interesting (because evolution is actually really cool 8)). We didn't evolve from monkeys or gorillas, but gorillas and other apes including us did evolve from an earlier animal; it's not like a chain, it's like a tree, and all of the apes are at the ends of the ape branches.
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Re: Religion – your views

Post by Adsolution »

Ambidextroid wrote:Here I was talking about the theory of general relativity, I just said the theory of gravity to simplify it a bit and make a better comparison for my argument (which, now that I look back, was silly of me to word it like that I admit)
Ah, alright. You seem to have picked up quite a bit in the last year and a half. :mrgreen:

dartofthedavros wrote:and that sciences are rarely brought to me in a way I can actually learn them.
Evolution is one of the simplest concepts in science to grasp, as it can be explained in a few sentences and requires no specialised knowledge, so I'm rather surprised, especially since it's in standard school curriculum. The term "survival of the fittest"/"natural selection", one of the core principles of evolution, is almost self-explanatory:

As you must know, children of the same parents, while not identical (unless they're twins), share many things in common with each other and their parents. Out of a group of individuals, those who are the most physically and mentally equipped to live in their environment are the ones who will have the highest chance of survival, and therefore have the highest chance of reproducing and passing off their better-equipped DNA. In due time, the survivors' DNA will be the only DNA remaining - the DNA of those less equipped will have been "naturally" weeded out (or "selected by nature"), as they were not capable of surviving en masse. Over long periods of time, this means that certain features will start to become pronounced and commonplace. Let's reshape this now regarding humans and their intelligence:



A group of apes go on an adventure, and they end up settling in colder, rainier location. The apes who were intelligent enough to realise they could use large leaves as umbrellas to shield against the cold rain were the ones most likely to survive long enough to reproduce. The group now only comprises rather intelligent apes. Their intelligence comes hand-in-hand with drive and curiosity, and they push forward further into the unknown, into an even colder climate.

While these apes may have been intelligent enough to use leaves as umbrellas, only the most intelligent of these apes were able to figure out how to stack sticks, branches, leaves and mud in order to create shelter from the cold wind and the rain. They reproduce, and push on further to the unknown.

New predators have appeared that their ape-like bodies were no longer equipped to deal with. While initially able to outrun the predators, many of the apes did not have the endurance to keep their speed up and were quickly killed off. As the apes did not stand a chance against the predators using traditional methods, only the most intelligent of these apes had figured out that rocks and sticks could be used as weapons. The apes with the longest legs and most powerful glutes/thighs (the recipe for bipedalism and endurance) - those able to escape their predators, and the apes who were intelligent enough to use weapons to defeat their predators, were the only ones to survive and reproduce.

These extremely intelligent apes chose to settle down for a while. While they were capable of beating their predators, it was no easy task. The more intelligent of these apes considered what kinds of sticks and rocks were most effective against the enemy - clearly, the pointy ones. They discovered they were able to grind rocks together to create sharper rocks, able to kill their predators in a single stab. These are the apes that survived to reproduce in the greatest numbers, and pushed on further into the unknown.

As intuition and thinking power has become central to these apes' ability to survive, the apes less capable of thinking straight were more likely to get killed off. The primary cause of this was brain fatigue caused by overheating, caused by an inability to sweat efficiently. The apes with the least amount of fur were the most adept at normalising their body heat, and were therefore able to utilise their minds to their fullest potentials, and were the ones who survived to reproduce in the greatest numbers.

After grinding so many rocks together, something special happens - a spark jumps out and fire is born. It became clear to the most intelligent of these uber-intelligent apes that fire, when harnessed, could be used as not only a weapon, but as a light and as a heat source, enabling them to easily fend off predators they once feared and brave even colder climates. Having been used to sheltering themselves for so long, it came as no surprise that light, portable shelters, or "clothes" could be constructed.

Time continues to pass, and of each group of apes, the most intelligent are always discovering something new to make surviving easier, and of those intelligent apes, the most physically adept end up being the ones most likely ones to reproduce.



Here we already have apes intelligent enough to clothe themselves, construct villages with fire lights and fight with weapons. They've lost their fur, and have begun walking on two legs. Sounds rather human, doesn't it? Remember that none of this happened as quickly as it sounds; a single one of the aforementioned stages would've taken tens of thousands of years of gradual adaption to fully complete. Also, like said, this isn't the only relevant component to evolution, there is a random element as well: mutation. While mutations generally have a negative impact, they can, on occasion, provide someone with such a strong advantage that it essentially ensures their survival, and this new mutated version of the species becomes the norm. Mutations have been the root cause for some very prominent parts of our evolution. While statistically beyond unlikely for an individual to hit a mutation like that, over the span of such a long period of time with so many beings, the idea of it not happening actually becomes statistically unlikely.

Again, all of these things are, for the most part, entirely logical conclusions you can come to simply knowing that children are different from their parents, but not too different. Perhaps not the exact progression of these things (this story and its progression weren't incredibly accurate, but it's not too far from the general idea).

Ambidextroid wrote:Actually it's pretty simple, it's just that it can be hard to describe without a visual aid. I would recommend you watch this video, even if it won't change your opinion you might find it interesting (because evolution is actually really cool 8)). We didn't evolve from monkeys or gorillas, but gorillas and other apes including us did evolve from an earlier animal; it's not like a chain, it's like a tree, and all of the apes are at the ends of the ape branches.
I was actually about to draw a diagram, but I couldn't find my tablet pen, so I ended up telling a fun story instead. :dango:
Last edited by Adsolution on Sat Jul 30, 2016 1:34 am, edited 2 times in total.
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Re: Religion – your views

Post by Dart »

I see, that's quite interesting. I'd say more but right now I'm still not feeling well and really wanted to get the message out that I did read/watch your responses :sad:
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Re: Religion – your views

Post by Adsolution »

It seems I somehow accidentally copied an entire section of Ambi's post into mine - removed that.
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Re: Religion – your views

Post by gamerz31w »

Can you explain me what is church of harambe?
I guess there are lots of MLG racists,trolls,bots,nuts,complexed guys,rage guys hating for no purpose.I dunno who they are.
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Re: Religion – your views

Post by Itooh »

gamerz31w wrote:I guess there are lots of MLG racists,trolls,bots,nuts,complexed guys,rage guys hating for no purpose.I dunno who they are.
You're a bit scary you know. :lol: Are you literally saying “I don't know what it is nor who they are Therefore I'm going to assume they are a bunch of terrible people. Easier than searching for answers anyway.”? Or is there a context I'm missing?

Five minutes of Google search was enough for me to know that it's just a joke around that shot Gorilla named Harambe. The prank with Google Map and Harambe street isn't really an indispensable knowledge to get it: the Facebook page only is full of jokes and exaggerations.
Just another meme on the Internet.
Your eyes are not ready for this, and your brain not prepared for that.
You should probably instead play some of these, or watch some of those.
*drops the mic* (just kidding, mics are expensive)
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Re: Religion – your views

Post by Hunchman801 »

anaphasiia wrote:Religious concepts require reasons involving the supernatural, otherwise they are not religious, whereas morals like "be kind to your neighbor" are secular because they have socially logical reason behind them. Since the only vehicle of religious reasoning is threat [of going to Hell, or facing punishment], or something completely artificial, it's similar to hitting a child to teach them a lesson: "it works until they're old enough to understand what they did was wrong", or "it strips them of dignity so they might, as a side-effect of that, think about what they did". The positive result is the true, non-selfish social realization, which is only incidental and has nothing to do with religion itself.
It seems to me that you just chose an arbitrary definition of religion which I can't find in any dictionary or encyclopedia.
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Adsolution wrote:fell pray to [Christianity]
Nice pun here.
Bradandez wrote:Jesus touched a black waitress and turned her white and said "I fixed you!".
Brad, this is the racist topic.
Ambidextroid wrote:It's pretty much an accepted fact that evolution took place; the only reason it's called a theory is because we can't prove it. To do that we would literally need to build a time machine.
PluMGMK wrote:"Evolution" is not a theory, it's an observed fact. It is a fact that fossils show changes occurring in species; it is most certainly a fact that bacteria have become resistant to antibiotics over the past half-century or so.
But can we trust our perception of the world and consider our observations as facts? Solipsistically yours. :mrgreen:
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Re: Religion – your views

Post by PluMGMK »

Hunchman801 wrote:
Ambidextroid wrote:It's pretty much an accepted fact that evolution took place; the only reason it's called a theory is because we can't prove it. To do that we would literally need to build a time machine.
PluMGMK wrote:"Evolution" is not a theory, it's an observed fact. It is a fact that fossils show changes occurring in species; it is most certainly a fact that bacteria have become resistant to antibiotics over the past half-century or so.
But can we trust our perception of the world and consider our observations as facts? Solipsistically yours. :mrgreen:
Well no, but distinguishing observations from facts isn't the same as saying it's "just a theory". :mrgreen:
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Re: Religion – your views

Post by incognito »

Hunchman801 wrote:But can we trust our perception of the world and consider our observations as facts? Solipsistically yours. :mrgreen:
It is what I'm always thinking, everything we think to be real might just be an illusion, we might just be the puppets of a greater power, all our pain and suffering may just be for the pleasure and amusement of a superior form of life, like video games, or comic books for us, pain, suffering, death, killing, all of this to entertain us, we might be just the same, a fish in a bocal, a bird in cage, death could be just a liberation, I don't know, I'm just in an atrocious mood today.
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Re: Religion – your views

Post by Dart »

incognito wrote:
Hunchman801 wrote:But can we trust our perception of the world and consider our observations as facts? Solipsistically yours. :mrgreen:
It is what I'm always thinking, everything we think to be real might just be an illusion, we might just be the puppets of a greater power, all our pain and suffering may just be for the pleasure and amusement of a superior form of life, like video games, or comic books for us, pain, suffering, death, killing, all of this to entertain us, we might be just the same, a fish in a bocal, a bird in cage, death could be just a liberation, I don't know, I'm just in an atrocious mood today.
oh my. :boon:
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Re: Religion – your views

Post by Bradandez »

Cool. I'm Kermit the Frog then.
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Re: Religion – your views

Post by neo »

I think I'm agnostic if I haven't already said that. I'm sure RaymanPC has helped me become Agnostic by challenging me to think critically about my belief. I realized, that I was actually forcing myself to believe in God as a kid. Like so: "God, you are real right? I guess you are real." I would find reasons to believe in it. Yet I got bored with church and saw no results. Now I'm like "I don't know."
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Re: Religion – your views

Post by Ambidextroid »

neo wrote:I think I'm agnostic if I haven't already said that.
As are we all, in a sense.
To be honest I really don't like the world agnostic, as it seems as though the very fact that "agnostic" is an option causes people to adopt it because they're not sure whether god exists or not.
If you stop 100% believing in God then there's no reason to stop there. Think about the likelihood that a bearded man made the universe and the likelihood that a rotten cabbage made the universe, they are equally small.
If you're talking about agnosticism as in you're not convinced there's absolutely no force behind the creation of the universe other than random chance, then I can respect that point of view, but it feels like most people who subscribe to the "agnostic" view have an equal uncertainty that everything in the universe was either made by the singular beard clad/robe laden/elephantine "God" or made by chance, which I can't see as a rational viewpoint. The chance that any specific religion is correct is practically (in the avoiding-philosophy-way) zero.
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