Rayman: Revenge of the Dark

[incognito]

Okay, i just care about security that s'all .

[DandyGuy]

This is my first ever attempt at modelling a human-esque face:



Courtesy of Gwee for the head drawings.

For the fairies, I'm guessing?

Given what I know about 3D graphics, you're in for sheer hell, what with miniscule facial features and the like. But, regardless, I have faith that you can do it well.

I wouldn't call it sheer hell, very time consuming more than anything.

[Shrooblord]

Looks like a good start. The hair is the hardest part for me. Modeling my own character was easy enough until I started modeling his hair... good luck for that

If you do a shoddy job (e.g. texturing a "hair dome"), then it's easy. If you're making actual hair... fuck.

There was a Pixar expo at some point in Amsterdam that detailed how they did hair for for example the girl from Brave. It was quite fantastic in how simple it was - you should see if you can find the info on the web somewhere. In summary, what they had was a few 'guide hairs' and then they had 'dummy hair' that was drawn inbetween them, interpolating the physics between them and as a result looking as a full head of incredibly realistic hair without costing like a gazillion RAM to render it.

Multiplayer's something I've definitely considered, though it would moreso be an afterthought, as the sole priority right now is the main game.

I was in the beta for Risk of Rain and the devs mentioned that when they started adding multiplayer afterward, it became a tiny bit difficult, because the guy they hired showed them it was actually a necessity that you build multiplayer from the ground on up as you build the rest of the game. They recoded lots of what they already had in the process. It's something you should take into consideration before building the entire game, or it may prove difficult to integrate later on. For example, mine will have multiplayer support in that you can co-op the main storyline and play minigames together on the side. I'm also probably adding some form of online but... hey... let's first get the game started up.

Mind you, nothing beats the PC's Hall of Doors for me. The Hall of Doors, and oddly enough, The Canopy, are two of the things that really define Rayman 2 for me, and scenes such as the area where you rescue Globox, where you're standing on the mushrooms growing off these incredibly tall, tall trees with only brown, blurry tree silhouettes visible in the background I found to be absolutely breathtaking.

Pretty much this entire thing for me too. However, truly, my exact feelings about R2's atmosphere is that it's captured by the entirety of R2. But then I'm a rock-solid fanatic about R2.

the other, more important reason is because we've devised a strategy in order to avoid a Cease & Desist as best we can.

You should check out and maybe even contact the creator of Renegade X. It's a fangame of the Command and Conquer installment called Renegade and it's finally been released just recently after being in development for 7 years. That person hasn't released a C&D, probably mainly because A) it's an amazingly awesome project and the creators of C&C are just happy to see they inspired someone in this way, but, more like because B) he hasn't tried making any money off of it. I've recently watched some videos of people creating proxies for a card game named Magic, who announced they'd no longer be doing it because they were receiving C&Ds from the creators Wizards of the Coast - but they were making money off their projects.
And I know that Michel Ancel (or Ubisofts lawyers for that part) aren't behind the game C&C, but I'm pretty sure - from what I can tell of Ancel's demeanor in public appearances - that he'd be happy to see someone push to the limits to get a project like this created.

That said, I think it's a wise strategy for you to avoid becoming overly popular while the game is still in-dev, not because it's still in-dev and it's "shitty to look at just 'cos it's in-dev", but especially for beforementioned reasons. But most importantly, I'd try not to state that your goal is to make money off of it (which it isn't, from what I gather - you want to get it published because it truly is a child of the series and it belongs alongside the other games, no?), if you want to keep the company on your good side.

Furthermore, that Raven theme you posted is absolutely gorgeous.


TL;DR:
Look at how Pixar did Brave hair; multiplayer is hard to add on later on; cease and desists are easily avoided if you don't ask money and finally, I really enjoyed that fish and chips we got at Benny's the other day. Thanks for modelling me into the game! #rulzezlives2014

[Adsolution]

There was a Pixar expo at some point in Amsterdam that detailed how they did hair for for example the girl from Brave. It was quite fantastic in how simple it was - you should see if you can find the info on the web somewhere. In summary, what they had was a few 'guide hairs' and then they had 'dummy hair' that was drawn inbetween them, interpolating the physics between them and as a result looking as a full head of incredibly realistic hair without costing like a gazillion RAM to render it.

Ah yes, I'm familiar with that actually. Though we'd need some pretty advanced shaders to render that kind of thing nicely in real-time! Ly though (who is finished now, by the way), won't need any kind of advanced hair rendering, we've got something pretty okay here already:



Though of course, while it's still not completely finished, we're satisfied for now and we'll see if we can perhaps improve the hair at a later time. The only thing other than that I'm not completely satisfied with yet is the mouth, it's very difficult, it doesn't look completely Ly-like yet. If you cover it up with your finger, you'll see the difference.

(Model/material work by me, texture painting by Spanex, concept and reference art by Earth Gwee)

I was in the beta for Risk of Rain and the devs mentioned that when they started adding multiplayer afterward, it became a tiny bit difficult, because the guy they hired showed them it was actually a necessity that you build multiplayer from the ground on up as you build the rest of the game. They recoded lots of what they already had in the process. It's something you should take into consideration before building the entire game, or it may prove difficult to integrate later on. For example, mine will have multiplayer support in that you can co-op the main storyline and play minigames together on the side. I'm also probably adding some form of online but... hey... let's first get the game started up.

Interesting. Though, of course I see that only as a suggestion more than anything, as it all depends on what kind of multiplayer you're introducing anyway. I would still focus on the multiplayer aspect later, since I personally can't see any downside to doing it afterward as opposed to simultaneously.

You should check out and maybe even contact the creator of Renegade X. It's a fangame of the Command and Conquer installment called Renegade and it's finally been released just recently after being in development for 7 years. That person hasn't released a C&D, probably mainly because A) it's an amazingly awesome project and the creators of C&C are just happy to see they inspired someone in this way, but, more like because B) he hasn't tried making any money off of it. I've recently watched some videos of people creating proxies for a card game named Magic, who announced they'd no longer be doing it because they were receiving C&Ds from the creators Wizards of the Coast - but they were making money off their projects.
And I know that Michel Ancel (or Ubisofts lawyers for that part) aren't behind the game C&C, but I'm pretty sure - from what I can tell of Ancel's demeanor in public appearances - that he'd be happy to see someone push to the limits to get a project like this created.

That said, I think it's a wise strategy for you to avoid becoming overly popular while the game is still in-dev, not because it's still in-dev and it's "shitty to look at just 'cos it's in-dev", but especially for beforementioned reasons. But most importantly, I'd try not to state that your goal is to make money off of it (which it isn't, from what I gather - you want to get it published because it truly is a child of the series and it belongs alongside the other games, no?), if you want to keep the company on your good side.

I'd not actually taken note of whether money's been a factor in most of these cases or not, but I'd naturally assumed that it wasn't. I know there have been many entirely harmless projects Nintendo has shut down, and other things of the sort. I can only hope that Ancel has a voice in these decisions, as it's clear he's the kind of person who would be all for fans doing things like this.

Furthermore, that Raven theme you posted is absolutely gorgeous.

Thanks! I hope in time to be re-orchestrating everything into a brand-new, refurnished soundtrack, made in-order as the levels are constructed. I'll even be seeking out a choir for hire to record, I'm certain that will bring a whole new layer of magic to the table! I'm really excited actually, the thought of being able to mic a choir, it's so wonderful, yet so doable.

[Earth Gwee]

Wow! Ly looks amazing! I'm really glad I was part of the process of making her.

[Master]

Ly looks pretty spectacular indeed, if I had any gripe, it'd probably be that I find her head to be a tad bit too large, but other than that, I think you folks deserve a good hand.

[Spanex]

Am I spying that damn seam again?

Anyway, I was glad to have worked on this too. She's turned out great! Now it's back to critters and environmental stuff for me :3

[Earth Gwee]

Ly looks pretty spectacular indeed, if I had any gripe, it'd probably be that I find her head to be a tad bit too large, but other than that, I think you folks deserve a good hand.

I would agree. She does look great, but with how nicely proportionate the rest of her body is, the large head does still bother me a little bit. If her body was more child-like, then I could forgive the larger head. But I don't want to ask too much of Ad or Spanex since they both worked on the modeling.

[Spanex]

Actually I have to agree with Master and Gwee on the proportions of the head since I did advise about it before.

[todpole]

Looks pretty good for a fangame. I do have a few concerns and like is this Raven character gonna be Rayman's lover interest or that the story might be a bit too serious for me. That Rhook character sound interesting. I'm guessing he's like the Leptys and Jano only he looks after time.
One suggestion I would make would be to make the Magician a bit uncomfortable around people, showing he has social issues.
I would saw it looks nice and might be a fun game. But when it is finished, I might wait what everyone else thinks. so i know if I should get it.

[Adsolution]

Am I spying that damn seam again?

Nah, just a lighting bug, I didn't notice when I took the screenshot.

Also, the head proportion is right around accurate to that of the original model and Rayman 2 artwork, in fact, it may still even be smaller than in those, so if there's anything that needs to be modified for it to look right, it's not the size of the head, but the shape of something. Perhaps a slightly more child-like body would work.

is this Raven character gonna be Rayman's lover interest

I'm not going to say no, or yes for that matter, since it isn't really made clear, and it isn't important either. There is a somewhat sentimental relationship between the two, though this could even more likely be attributed to Raven being the only other limbless being he's ever come across.

or that the story might be a bit too serious for me.

It depends on how your perception of 'serious' works. It's definitely not light-hearted, and has a couple of very dark and dramatic moments, but they balance out with areas of awe, joy and whimsy as well. If you find seriousness to be the lack of goofiness, then you could say it takes itself very seriously, yes. One of the main objectives here is, while traversing through the loads of different settings, themes and 'moods', to also maintain a consistent 'parent mood', so even if there may be a scene of blatant comic-relief, it's dignified given the right circumstances, and it never descends into something utterly carefree.

That Rhook character sound interesting. I'm guessing he's like the Leptys and Jano only he looks after time.

That's a pretty good way to put it.

One suggestion I would make would be to make the Magician a bit uncomfortable around people, showing he has social issues.

I'd already actually planned for it to be like this, somewhat. He's not downright awkward, but you can tell that he's trying too hard to be that centre of attention, or would in some way try to smite Rayman using his 'social status', in the way an extremely jealous and awkward person might.

[todpole]

is this Raven character gonna be Rayman's lover interest

I'm not going to say no, or yes for that matter, since it isn't really made clear, and it isn't important either. There is a somewhat sentimental relationship between the two, though this could even more likely be attributed to Raven being the only other limbless being he's ever come across.

or that the story might be a bit too serious for me.

It depends on how your perception of 'serious' works. It's definitely not light-hearted, and has a couple of very dark and dramatic moments, but they balance out with areas of awe, joy and whimsy as well. If you find seriousness to be the lack of goofiness, then you could say it takes itself very seriously, yes. One of the main objectives here is, while traversing through the loads of different settings, themes and 'moods', to also maintain a consistent 'parent mood', so even if there may be a scene of blatant comic-relief, it's dignified given the right circumstances, and it never descends into something utterly carefree.

One suggestion I would make would be to make the Magician a bit uncomfortable around people, showing he has social issues.

I'd already actually planned for it to be like this, somewhat. He's not downright awkward, but you can tell that he's trying too hard to be that centre of attention, or would in some way try to smite Rayman using his 'social status', in the way an extremely jealous and awkward person might.

I don't think romance should be a major focus. I wouldn't seeing some like between Ales and Betilla or Globox and Uglette, but it shouldn't be shoved in our throats. Also after looking back you mentioned Clark might be gay. That is something I don't mind, let us more gay characters. More rights and all that. Diversity for the win.

And the Magician. Well according to source from the wiki, he was bullied in school so I think that would have a horrible effect on his outlook on people(My Headcannon has him working with nightmares because they're either too stupid or crazy to harm him.)

And now the seriousness. Yes, a bit of serious is good, you know have stakes, a bit of drama, romance and character development, but (in my opinion) Rayman is more about adventure, whimsy and fun. My favorite story in the series is the third because while Andre is a real threat and the Black Lums are a destructive bunch if not stop, the main goal for most of the game is to take globox to the doctor. It's a story that just fun on a world saving adventure.
Besides i'll be a hypocrite if I said Rayman games shouldn't have serious/dark moments, even though I have story idea which contains things like: Mr.Dark brutally beating up Rayman, a dark look into Ales psyche, and the grief of Globox losing the one friend(beside his family) who believed in him.

[Shrooblord]

if there's anything that needs to be modified for it to look right, it's not the size of the head, but the shape of something. Perhaps a slightly more child-like body would work.

I think it may be the shape of the head. She's somehow got a bit of a 'square' head and her ears are just that tiny bit larger than you'd expect in proportion. Also, usually in this cartoony style that Rayman 2 is nestled in, and this also goes for Ly, the feet are a lot larger than you'd think they should be. They're big, clunky and longer than regular feet. Ly's were too, in the original game.
Her eyes are a bit larger than I seem to remember.
Ly's also lost most of her Asian impression that she gave off. At least in the design of her eyes and her cheekbones, there were distinct racial characteristics of people from the Eastern lands.
One more thing: tails are impressive. Although your Ly has a fluffy, full-on tail going on, it's not very large, or at least it doesn't appear to be. If it'd be larger, maybe arcing up more to give it more volume, it would take away some attention from the head being as large as it is (which is actually true to the originals, you're right).
Overall: the style you can definitely read off of the R2 conceptual drawings are that everything's a bit of a caricature. In fact, judging by the humour of the game, most of that style made it into the game itself too (think of Lunette, Gorilla Pirates, Globox-Pirate interactions, Razorbeard's rants). With caricature comes a few distinct features: big heads, big hands, big feet. Most characters in the game had all of those.

I think all of these things are adding up to give a bit of an iffy feel to some people. And it's funny you should mention her mouth - that's one of the things I am not bothered by here - but yes, to make them more Lylike (that's from now on my favourite word in existence), they'd need to be a bit fuller, but not too much.
The thing that struck me as surprising was her eyes. They don't remind me of Ly's at all.

Now this may all sound like some pretty harsh criticism, but in fact, I really like the model. I love how you've been able to perfectly replicate the bodysuit's patters, the hair is pretty neat and her overall anatomy is fantastic. She comes across as girl-like and playful, though not exaggeratedly sexualised as you see in so many female characters nowadays (may I add: urgh...).

You know, she kind of reminds me of the protagonist of Monsters vs. Aliens.

[Bradandez]

That's some fantastic work, Ad and Spanex. I like how Ly looks!

[Adsolution]

@Shrooblord:
Indeed, those are all things that have been bothering me as well, especially the lack of a more Eastern appearance. I'm sort of trying to shape her head to look more like it does in my signature; it's not quite as Asian as it is in Rayman 2, it's more youthful, but still somewhat Asian. The eyes could be a bit more slanted inward, with less 'eye' by the bridge.

The tail is actually really big, it just might not appear as such in this picture.

[Shrooblord]

I was just about to mention the Ly in your signature as being more of what I'd 'expect' from Ly.

However, of course, how you choose to shape your Ly is, ultimately, entirely up to you.

[Droolie]

This is really good! The body itself is perfect, but as many here said, it's the head that's a bit weird. It looks great in your signature though.
I don't have much time at this moment, so I'll be extremely blunt. I hope I don't come across as a massive dick - that really is not my intention. I also made a quick, messy picture to explain what could be improved in like 5 minutes: http://i.imgur.com/jqTcDck.png

• The head really is too big. That is the first and biggest step toward improvement. To be honest, it already felt slightly too big in Rayman 2.
• She needs to have more hair on the back or her head. If she has that much on top, it looks weird not to have any on the back.
• Ears should be slightly smaller in proportion to the head, but more importantly thinner and more catlike.
• Lips should be slightly bigger but I don't feel uncomfortable when she has small lips - she just feels a lot more like Ly with bigger lips.
• The eyes definitely need to be smaller and more Eastern-like. The pupils too, for that matter, but with the time I have I couldn't make it look good on the picture

Again, sorry if that sounded harsh. Feel free to give similarly blunt and to-the-point comments on my stuff in the future. I have work to do and my time is running out, so I'm off!

[Adsolution]

No worries, that image edit you made was actually really helpful! I still think that her head should be just a little bit bigger than that, and the lips perhaps a little smaller, but the changes overall, especially the eyes, are a great reference.

[Spanex]

I'm taking the model with me to work on USB stick so I'll try to replicate the model using the advise and refs given.

Also have a critter teaser. We call it the "Souris". Model + texturing by me.

[Adsolution]

Ahah, I'll say it again, I love that little bell on the end of its tail!

Given that Souris literally means Mouse in French, we'll probably come up with something more creative, like we did with the Lackin, the little bunny creature (Lapin + Lac-Mac).