maybe they didn't forget him after all.
By who, you? What about any other religion? They'll just be left out. I also don't see how you being an Atheist has anything to do with fighting this "trend". It's a sign of respect to others and not trying to prove Christianity dominant. Refusing to accept or tolerate it is just plain stubborn. I'm sure you'd just love it if suddenly the rules changed where people say "Happy Hanukkah" instead.spiraldoor wrote:As an atheist, I fight this trend as hard as I can. The political-correctness brigade’s attempts to muck about with our words and phrases will not be tolerated.
This is wrong.RayFan9876 wrote:The majority of the world is made up of Christians
Technically they do in the end of the video, though in different languages. I guess it depends on the countries. Some of them probably mention a different holiday.spiraldoor wrote:Why don’t people use the word ‘Christmas’ any more?
Being an atheist has plenty to do with fighting this trend. It shows that I am part of the demographic which you claim feels ‘excluded’ when people use the word ‘Christmas’. Do you think I’m trying to ‘prove Christianity dominant’ whenever I use the word ‘Christmas’? No, it’s just a word for the 25th of December. Who gives a damn if it has a ‘Christ’ in it? I don’t. It’s called etymology. Lots of words have pieces of other words in them. ‘Happy Holidays’ is such a dreadfully artificial and manufactured greeting. It’s like calling black people ‘African-Americans’. Your suggestion that everyone should start saying ‘Happy Hanukkah’ instead makes no sense; why would countries that have been using the term ‘Christmas’ for centuries with no problems suddenly change their traditions to appease a Jewish minority? That would be even worse than ‘Happy Holidays’.RayFan9876 wrote:By who, you? What about any other religion? They'll just be left out. I also don't see how you being an Atheist has anything to do with fighting this "trend". It's a sign of respect to others and not trying to prove Christianity dominant. Refusing to accept or tolerate it is just plain stubborn. I'm sure you'd just love it if suddenly the rules changed where people say "Happy Hanukkah" instead.
You sadly seem to be a big proponent of political correctness, so there is not much hope that I can convince you to see sense. ‘Christmas’ has been the name for the 25th of December in most civilised countries for some centuries now. Continuing to use the traditional name is not in any way ‘offensive’ to any person who is not stupidly sensitive. I am a non-Christian and I am not remotely ‘offended’ or ‘excluded’ by people’s usage of the word. In no way is this like ‘calling non-heterosexuals gay’ or ‘calling dark-skinned people African’; although those are separate debates that I’d be glad to have with you at another time. The comparison is nonsensical. Censoring the usage of the word ‘Christmas’ is not ‘a tolerance move in the right direction’; it’s a stupid move in the direction of invasive cultural suppression, censorship and homogenisation. Members of other religions should not come to our countries and expect us to suppress or censor our long-standing cultural traditions because they do not feel ‘included’ by them. They can celebrate whatever they like; us using the word ‘Christmas’ has nothing to do with them. Why do minorities (or so you claim to know) feel that their own holidays have been ‘pushed down the importance list’? Do they expect members of other religions to attach as much importance to their holidays as they do? That’s ridiculous. They themselves attach high importance to their own holidays, and that should be enough for them as it is enough for all of us. I am not sure why you think ‘the Jewish community feels awkward spreading their Christmas spirit’; how do you know this? I have never met a Jew who was offended by the widespread celebration of Christmas in predominantly Christian countries or wished to suppress the usage of the word. Why on earth should the Jews care if ‘Hanukkah doesn’t even pass through most people’s minds’ at Christmas? It passes through the minds of the people who celebrate it; isn’t that enough? They want Hanukkah to pass through the minds of all the ‘gentiles’ as well, or they will feel ‘awkward’ amidst their celebrations? Where are you getting this from?RayFan9876 wrote:It's like going around calling anyone who's not naturally heterosexual "gay" or calling anyone dark-skinned "African" and thinking there's nothing wrong with it. All it is is a tolerance move in the right direction. The majority of the world is made up of Christians, so people don't really notice how much it can exclude other religions who have their own holidays that feel pushed down the importance list. All the Atheists would have to do that don't celebrate Christmas is ignore it, as simple as that. The Jewish community however feels awkward spreading their holiday spirit because Hanukkah doesn't even pass through most people's minds at this time of year.
Aswell I love my walls of text, Stacey loves her walls of text, Candish loves her walls of text, Paradox loves his walls of text, ... *endless names next*.spiraldoor wrote:I do love my walls of text.
I never said we SHOULD switch to that. I said "How would you feel if...." I'm sure you wouldn't' like it, yet it's technically no different.spiraldoor wrote:Being an atheist has plenty to do with fighting this trend. It shows that I am part of the demographic which you claim feels ‘excluded’ when people use the word ‘Christmas’. Do you think I’m trying to ‘prove Christianity dominant’ whenever I use the word ‘Christmas’? No, it’s just a word for the 25th of December. Who gives a damn if it has a ‘Christ’ in it? I don’t. It’s called etymology. Lots of words have pieces of other words in them. ‘Happy Holidays’ is such a dreadfully artificial and manufactured greeting. It’s like calling black people ‘African-Americans’. Your suggestion that everyone should start saying ‘Happy Hanukkah’ instead makes no sense; why would countries that have been using the term ‘Christmas’ for centuries with no problems suddenly change their traditions to appease a Jewish minority? That would be even worse than ‘Happy Holidays’.RayFan9876 wrote:By who, you? What about any other religion? They'll just be left out. I also don't see how you being an Atheist has anything to do with fighting this "trend". It's a sign of respect to others and not trying to prove Christianity dominant. Refusing to accept or tolerate it is just plain stubborn. I'm sure you'd just love it if suddenly the rules changed where people say "Happy Hanukkah" instead.
You're missing the important things in my posts on both times around. Of course it passes through the minds of the people who celebrate it, but when you think of "December", you think "Christmas", we don't generally think "Christmas/Hanukkah/holidays". All I mean is it would be better if people said "happy holidays" on public announcements instead of "Merry Christmas", because I know some casual Jewish members who are quite annoyed with it, and it's not nearly just them. No one pays attention to anything accept the Christmas season on Christmas (except for some small particulars, don't make a smart remark), except for other religions. Why shouldn't other religions have just as much right to celebrate as publicly as Christians (or Atheists that celebrate it because they want to)? Well they do because it's a free country, but if someone walks up to your door saying "Happy Hanukkah", most people would kind of go "yeah... you too...." How many TV shows pay attention to other religions? Like none. How many Movies do? Like none. How many books do? Like none. I even know people who don't even know what Judaism is strangely enough, yet EVERYONE knows Christmas. I'm speaking purely out of the fairness of people who follow other religions as well as the recognition they deserve which should be no less, (give or take not much less) than Christianity. Not because people should start celebrating it more, but so people recognize it more and know that December is a time for multiple religious holidays, and isn't overshrouded by Christmas. Christmas this, Christmas that, is there publicly room for anything else? Have you ever seen a Jewish family celebrate? You don't even notice it. They do it in their homes alone because they'd feel awkward at this point in time (where noone pays attention to them except their own community) walking in the streets spreading their spirit.spiraldoor wrote:[You sadly seem to be a big proponent of political correctness, so there is not much hope that I can convince you to see sense. ‘Christmas’ has been the name for the 25th of December in most civilised countries for some centuries now. Continuing to use the traditional name is not in any way ‘offensive’ to any person who is not stupidly sensitive. I am a non-Christian and I am not remotely ‘offended’ or ‘excluded’ by people’s usage of the word. In no way is this like ‘calling non-heterosexuals gay’ or ‘calling dark-skinned people African’; although those are separate debates that I’d be glad to have with you at another time. The comparison is nonsensical. Censoring the usage of the word ‘Christmas’ is not ‘a tolerance move in the right direction’; it’s a stupid move in the direction of invasive cultural suppression, censorship and homogenisation. Members of other religions should not come to our countries and expect us to suppress or censor our long-standing cultural traditions because they do not feel ‘included’ by them. They can celebrate whatever they like; us using the word ‘Christmas’ has nothing to do with them. Why do minorities (or so you claim to know) feel that their own holidays have been ‘pushed down the importance list’? Do they expect members of other religions to attach as much importance to their holidays as they do? That’s ridiculous. They themselves attach high importance to their own holidays, and that should be enough for them as it is enough for all of us. I am not sure why you think ‘the Jewish community feels awkward spreading their Christmas spirit’; how do you know this? I have never met a Jew who was offended by the widespread celebration of Christmas in predominantly Christian countries or wished to suppress the usage of the word. Why on earth should the Jews care if ‘Hanukkah doesn’t even pass through most people’s minds’ at Christmas? It passes through the minds of the people who celebrate it; isn’t that enough? They want Hanukkah to pass through the minds of all the ‘gentiles’ as well, or they will feel ‘awkward’ amidst their celebrations? Where are you getting this from?RayFan9876 wrote:It's like going around calling anyone who's not naturally heterosexual "gay" or calling anyone dark-skinned "African" and thinking there's nothing wrong with it. All it is is a tolerance move in the right direction. The majority of the world is made up of Christians, so people don't really notice how much it can exclude other religions who have their own holidays that feel pushed down the importance list. All the Atheists would have to do that don't celebrate Christmas is ignore it, as simple as that. The Jewish community however feels awkward spreading their holiday spirit because Hanukkah doesn't even pass through most people's minds at this time of year.
‘Merry Christmas’ > ‘Happy Holidays’
I did not mean ‘should’ in the sense of ‘to be obliged’ (eg ‘you should get plenty of exercise’) but in the sense of ‘would’ (eg ‘I should be quite happy’). In no way did I misrepresent your statement. And no, it is entirely different; explaining why this is the case was exactly my purpose. Christmas is celebrated by the majority of people in civilised countries regardless of their religion, so it makes perfect sense to use it in public broadcasts (and so on) such as this one from Ubisoft, as has always been done until recently. Attaching a Hanukkah greeting to this sort of broadcast would amount to no more than ridiculous pandering. Perhaps it would make sense in Israel, but not here.RayFan9876 wrote:I never said we SHOULD switch to that. I said "How would you feel if...." I'm sure you wouldn't' like it, yet it's technically no different.
Indeed, and that’s a good reason to continue to celebrate as we always have. I am a non-Christian and I am in no way offended by the word ‘Christmas’, as you claim non-Christians are. All non-Christians I know celebrate Christmas as a secular event and there is no reason why everyone should not do this.RayFan9876 wrote:Also by majority, I meant mainly first world countries where people make a bigger deal out of it. 2.5 billion is still frickin' huge.
Yes, I do think of ‘Christmas’ when I think of ‘December’. When I hear the word ‘December’, ‘Hanukkah’ is not exactly the first thing that pops into my mind. And why exactly should this be a problem? I’m not Jewish and neither is the country I live in. So why should Hanukkah even matter to me? Why should everyone have to listen to it in public announcements when so few celebrate it? Why do these ‘casual Jewish members’ you know get so pissed off when they hear ‘Merry Christmas’? Don’t they realise that they’re not in a Jewish country? That they’re in a country where the overwhelming majority of people celebrate Christmas as either a religious event or a secular one? They need to get over themselves and grow thicker skin. I’m a ‘casual atheist member’ and I don’t mind the word ‘Christmas’ in the slightest. Why on earth should the non-Jewish public pause during their Christmas celebrations to ‘pay attention’ to Hanukkah? Who does that benefit? And now, deliberately or not, you are introducing the completely separate issue of people’s ‘right to celebrate’ whatever religious event they wish. How does hearing ‘Happy Holidays’ on public announcements instead of ‘Merry Christmas’ increase non-Christians’ ‘right to celebrate publicly’? They can celebrate publicly all they want for all I care, as long as it doesn’t interfere with our enjoyment of Christmas. Replacing public instances of the word ‘Christmas’ with a generic, manufactured, politically-correct, ‘inclusive’ euphemism like ‘Holidays’ is not some wonderful idea which will give everyone ‘the right to celebrate publicly’; the opposite if anything. Would you like to replace Christmas cards with ‘Holiday cards’? Christmas trees with ‘Holiday trees’? It’s not hard to see the ridiculous destination this logic will lead us to. If the Jews want to send each other ‘Hanukkah cards’ or set up ‘Hanukkah trees’, then that’s fine. Let them do it. But they’d better get over themselves and realise that we are not going to stop referring to the 25th of December as ‘Christmas Day’. That’s the way it’s always been and that’s the way it should stay. Besides, it’s largely a secular and commercialised event these days – something I am completely comfortable with. It didn’t even start as a Christian celebration, but a pagan one; are Christians offended by its former pagan connotations? No. Should other religions be offended by the former Christian connotations of what is now a largely secular celebration? No. I have no idea why anyone would walk up to my door and say ‘Happy Hanukkah’; are you saying that this person would be a Jewish friend of mine? A complete stranger? I expect that that distinction would colour my response somewhat. I’m not sure what point you’re trying to make there. Why should books, films and television series ‘pay attention’ to minority religions? Most don’t ‘pay attention’ to Christianity either, but let’s ignore that for a moment. What would be so great about a large number of entertainment products involving Judaism or Islam? Would the Jews and the Muslims be happy about that? Would they feel ‘included’? There aren’t so many entertainment products revolving around atheism, but I don’t give a damn; why should I? That’s up to the artists responsible for them. In no way should the process of artistic creation be contaminated by the shoehorning of unnecessary ‘attention’ towards minority groups. What you are talking about is called ‘tokenism’ and it is ridiculous. Sadly this sort of foolish pandering is already predominant in modern filmmaking and television production; for example, it’s the reason almost every film must have one black guy, regardless of common sense. If you’ve got a television programme with a couple of dozen characters, the chances are some of them are going to be black, some Asian, some gay, some handicapped; because if a series does not have all these boxes ticked, it will be branded as ‘racist’ etc. I’ve read that approximately 90% of couples who appear in the recent Doctor Who series are mixed-race, makes no sense at all and in no way reflects reality. Some complained about Peter Jackson’s casting of only white actors in The Lord of the Rings, despite the fact that the books were set in a mythical pre-history Europe, where other races obviously would not have been present. I’ve seriously heard people asking for Jackson to include female Dwarves in The Hobbit – no joke. Artists and creators should not be made to include any racial, sexual, religious or any other minority that they themselves do not wish to include; and if they do not wish to include them, there is no more to be said on the matter. If you know people who do not know what Judaism is, I expect you’re hanging around with some very ignorant people; nonetheless I see no problem with their lack of knowledge. Why should Jews care if there’s someone who doesn’t know the name of their religion? I wouldn’t care if I found out that there was someone who was unaware of things which are important to me; much less would I seek to foist knowledge of it upon those to whom it is irrelevant. If any Jews seriously get offended by someone not knowing what Judaism is, then they are being far too sensitive and should wake up to reality. Why do minority religions deserve the same ‘recognition’ that majority religions have? Everyone I know celebrates Christmas, but practically no one I know celebrates Hanukkah; so why should they ‘recognise’ Hanukkah as being equal in importance or status to Christmas, or be made to ‘pay attention’ to it against their will via its shoehorning into public broadcasts? Everyone with a brain knows that many events are celebrated in December, but why should we all have to ‘pay attention’ to events which only a small minority cares about? Of course there’s ‘room’ for other events than Christmas, but not on public broadcasts and announcements and advertisements etc. ‘Christmas’ has always been used on them, and no one in their right mind is offended by it. I see no reason to change ‘Christmas’ to ‘Holidays’ in any official capacity. Have I ever seen Jews celebrating Hanukkah? No. Why is this a problem? Will these Jews be unhappy if I do not see them celebrating? Do they require Christians or atheists to ‘pay attention’ to their celebrations in order for them to be satisfied with them? Why would they be out celebrating on the streets, anyway? Christians celebrate Christmas indoors, in their homes, with their families. So do I. Is Hanukkah an outdoor thing? The Jews march about ‘spreading their spirit’ all over the place? What makes you so sure that the Jews feel awkward at Christmas, anyway? Did they tell you this? You do seem fond of making declarations on behalf of large groups without supplying any sources or evidence to support your claims.RayFan9876 wrote:You're missing the important things in my posts on both times around. Of course it passes through the minds of the people who celebrate it, but when you think of "December", you think "Christmas", we don't generally think "Christmas/Hanukkah/holidays". All I mean is it would be better if people said "happy holidays" on public announcements instead of "Merry Christmas", because I know some casual Jewish members who are quite annoyed with it, and it's not nearly just them. No one pays attention to anything accept the Christmas season on Christmas (except for some small particulars, don't make a smart remark), except for other religions. Why shouldn't other religions have just as much right to celebrate as publicly as Christians (or Atheists that celebrate it because they want to)? Well they do because it's a free country, but if someone walks up to your door saying "Happy Hanukkah", most people would kind of go "yeah... you too...." How many TV shows pay attention to other religions? Like none. How many Movies do? Like none. How many books do? Like none. I even know people who don't even know what Judaism is strangely enough, yet EVERYONE knows Christmas. I'm speaking purely out of the fairness of people who follow other religions as well as the recognition they deserve which should be no less, (give or take not much less) than Christianity. Not because people should start celebrating it more, but so people recognize it more and know that December is a time for multiple religious holidays, and isn't overshrouded by Christmas. Christmas this, Christmas that, is there publicly room for anything else? Have you ever seen a Jewish family celebrate? You don't even notice it. They do it in their homes alone because they'd feel awkward at this point in time (where noone pays attention to them except their own community) walking in the streets spreading their spirit.
That's what I was thinking.Quickfist wrote: Tch, Rayman doesn't even do a decent dance.
The weirdest head-banging I've ever seen, that's for sure.