Something Bothering you?/Daily Doldrums

[Rayfist]

Oh boy. I'm going to say this in Brad's defense.

Let me get this first part over with quickly:

how she has done anything so atrociously bad that deserves such remarks.

A proven con artist, lied about death threats, shuts anyone up who disagrees with her.
I'll admit the hit thing was too far (I would never really want to see her hit), but I would love for someone to knock some sense into her mentally.
Anita is supporting the corruption we're seeing journalism lately, such as the Zoe incident, or maybe the incident with Mighty no. 9.
She never does her research either and tries to throw these things down like they're facts.

Anita really overexaggerates her points too, don't believe me? Go watch her video where she says Super Princess Peach corresponds to a woman's PMS... yeah. So is this REALLY the woman you want representing videogames?

Did you know that these are game characters who have no say over what they are? Funny that. My problem is not the fact they're prostitutes, it's that it's all they are; prostitutes. These characters usually have little to no other sort of personality and all they are in these sort of games is something to gawk at and kill if you so wish.

There are also hobo's, people dealing with drugs, two other people who are also widely known for being pretty bad, they're just there for show to show how "Alive" and "Real" the city is. Los Santos is an alive, breathing city, and Rockstar games does a great job at making it that. These NPC's, albeit a prostitute, a drug dealer, are just viewed as NPC's, no positive or negative light, they're just there to be there, to see people so upset over an NPC in a game is ridiculous. Any NPC can be killed in any way, yet these feminazis make it sound like it's just the prostitutes who get the harsh treatment, and guess what? You don't have to kill these prostitutes at all, you can just drive away if you want. It's a videogame, in the end you're suppose to have fun, laugh, and a great time, yet now we have people questioning everything, why does Princess Peach have so many emotions, why does Smash Bros not have enough playable woman?, etc.

Do you also notice how male prostitutes are a thing and yet aren't present in any of these games? Nice representation there.

Saints Row III and Postal 2

You see, you may have the sense to know this is a video game and be like "Yeah I shouldn't do this shit in real life" but there are in fact, stupid people, who do not know any better and will take influence from a video game, especially younger ones (Who I won't deny shouldn't be getting these games in the first place but then again, if they really want to go on a "killing spree" after that then isn't that shitty parenting for not telling them that doing such is bad?). Ok so it's not the video game's fault in itself but the problem is the fact that there's a distinct lack of games that do not have strong female characters and by strong I mean ones that are not there to be sex objects or killing spree objects.

Remember the Sandy Hook School shooting? That kid was a pretty amid Call of Duty player. So as you can expect, the media hopped onto that shit and blamed videogames. Anita is no different, she thinks us enjoying games like Bayonetta 2 is for the sheer satisfaction of pleasure, when despite the fact Bayonetta was designed by a woman. No matter what M rated game, anything with any type of sex, murder, etc, you should NEVER give access to someone whose insane, it's never the games fault, it's the person. This same stuff happens with movie's and other stuff. There are fucked up people in the world and videogames or not, they will exist.

I AM NOT SAYING THERE ARE NOT GAMES WITH NO STRONG FEMALE CHARACTERS I AM SAYING THAT THERE IS A LOT MORE GAMES THAT DO NOT.

I never understood why it mattered to this degree, both male and female protagonists are awesome in many unique different ways, Lara Croft from the Tomb Raider reboot is a complete badass and displays woman in a very positive light. I see no mention of TV shows which have more male protagonists then female protagonists. Which brings me to my next question, why is that videogames is the hot subject to tackle? What about movies, tv shows? That I don't get. Maybe there could be more female protagonists but in the end it shouldn't matter, what should matter is having an awesome likeable protagonist, male or female. I guess there could be a bit more female's but in the end, a videogame is for pure fun for me, and I don't think most people care what gender the protagonist is.

I like how you pulled out the "there's worse in the world" card because oh no- there are people being assaulted we must drop every other issue in the world so we can focus on that. No that's not how it works and i'm amazed you pulled that one. Of course there is much worse including actual assault but maybe, just maybe if there was- say less violence against women in video games that there might be people going "hey you know what? this assaulting thing is rather shitty because our games don't show that in a good light anymore".

The bread and butter right here. There's woman who have no say in other countries, yet videogames is the hot topic to tackle? You act as if this hasn't been said before, believe me game devs ARE noticing, and you know what, majority of them ignore and do what they usually do. It's trivial to complain about your portrayal in games. I have few female friends and none of them ever question that type of stuff, they just enjoy the game the way it's suppose to be enjoyed. There are often videogames where MEN are also portrayed in a very negative way, whether it be selling his body for sex, or just being there just to kill, it doesn't matter. Both men and women are often portrayed equally, both humans who can be killed within the game. These feminazis are always disproven by millions of others and you know what they do? Block them, disable comments, etc. What's the point of tackling a subject they're always wrong in? These people always censor out others not allowing them to get a word out when they are proven wrong by others. I mean yeah there are those that sent death threats to Anita (that I don't support) but there are others who have tried to nicely reason with her, but those people have also ultimately been shunned by her in the end.

@ General Anita comments : I will say this now; I am not a full supporter of Anita herself. I do not like the way she is handling these topics either but I am not the one sitting her talking about how she should be "hit" or "dead". Would I like her to get a better understanding on how to handle these topics? Yes but I fail to see (beyond that GTA V incident) how she has done anything so atrociously bad that deserves such remarks.

The big problem here is what she often views as negative is just people naturally disagreeing with her. She pretty much makes it as if disagreeing with her points is straight up misogyny. I don't want her to die, nor do I want her to be hit, but again, I just want her to allow someone to explain there reasoning to disprove the shit out of her. But like all these "feminazis" in gaming, they don't care about what people bring to the table, they just wait for the inevitable moment someone sends them a death threat to go post about it on there tumblr and say "SEE GUYS!? GAMERS ARE FUCKED UP!". Majority of the people don't want her dead, they just want her to realize, but she never will.

TL;DR : I do think that the way being feminism being handled in gaming is not 100% perfect but the way you people put it here really irked me last night and still sorta do now.

Well I don't want to see Anita hit at all, so I do apologise for that, but how you just lowered down to the swearing show's how most feminazis (not implying you're one) respond to these claims, they always resort to the insult tactic. Did you see any direct swears in my response? Yet you're response is by saying I'm having a "stupid ass rage" was completely rude and uncalled for.

[spiraldoor]

Did you see any direct swears in my response?

No, just direct comparisons between people who happen to disagree with you and a fascist regime that murdered millions of innocent people. But no swears, that's the important thing.

[Rayfist]

Did you see any direct swears in my response?

No, just direct comparisons between people who happen to disagree with you and a fascist regime that murdered millions of innocent people. But no swears, that's the important thing.

Thanks Spiral. And yes I did say Anita is basically acting like a dictator at this point, I'm not sure what else to say. If that was going any far then I do apologise. Sorry, I'm a bit confused as to whatever part you're referring to.

I don't see any direct insulting either. Anita isn't even part of this conversation. I hope you realize I'm trying to keep this civil for the most part. I don't want us all to reach bitch-fit level here, moreso come to an understanding.

I'll fully admit my first response was a bit harsh, but there was no direct insulting of any of the members, and I'd never want to reduce down to that:

These "feminazis" (not to be confused with feminists who don't pull this shit) are the worst fucking people.

It's a fucking videogame people, get the fuck over it, fucking stupid people like Anita Sarkeesian who made this whole "feminism" in videogames fad really just need to be hit.

I just want to claim my stance here why I think this current trend with games is pointless, and I know, going against a mods opinion is going to really affect me, but I honestly just want a say in this.

[Serza5]

A proven con artist, lied about death threats, shuts anyone up who disagrees with her.
I'll admit the hit thing was too far (I would never really want to see her hit), but I would love for someone to knock some sense into her mentally.
Anita is supporting the corruption we're seeing journalism lately, such as the Zoe incident, or maybe the incident with Mighty no. 9.
She never does her research either and tries to throw these things down like they're facts.

Anita really overexaggerates her points too, don't believe me? Go watch her video where she says Super Princess Peach corresponds to a woman's PMS... yeah. So is this REALLY the woman you want representing videogames?

[...]

Remember the Sandy Hook School shooting? That kid was a pretty amid Call of Duty player. So as you can expect, the media hopped onto that shit and blamed videogames. Anita is no different, she thinks us enjoying games like Bayonetta 2 is for the sheer satisfaction of pleasure, when despite the fact Bayonetta was designed by a woman. No matter what M rated game, anything with any type of sex, murder, etc, you should NEVER give access to someone whose insane, it's never the games fault, it's the person. This same stuff happens with movie's and other stuff. There are fucked up people in the world and videogames or not, they will exist.

[...]

The big problem here is what she often views as negative is just people naturally disagreeing with her. She pretty much makes it as if disagreeing with her points is straight up misogyny. I don't want her to die, nor do I want her to be hit, but again, I just want her to allow someone to explain there reasoning to disprove the shit out of her. But like all these "feminazis" in gaming, they don't care about what people bring to the table, they just wait for the inevitable moment someone sends them a death threat to go post about it on there tumblr and say "SEE GUYS!? GAMERS ARE FUCKED UP!". Majority of the people don't want her dead, they just want her to realize, but she never will.

I'm lumping these two together because I want to say yet again that I do not agree with what Anita is doing here, just more so that I do not approve of the overly aggressive nature towards her. I do not agree with the extreme feminist regime, I do not believe in what they hope to accomplish but I will sympathise with them for receiving death/violent threats over "just a video game" as you keep on emphasising yourself.

There are also hobo's, people dealing with drugs, two other people who are also widely known for being pretty bad, they're just there for show to show how "Alive" and "Real" the city is. Los Santos is an alive, breathing city, and Rockstar games does a great job at making it that. These NPC's, albeit a prostitute, a drug dealer, are just viewed as NPC's, no positive or negative light, they're just there to be there, to see people so upset over an NPC in a game is ridiculous. Any NPC can be killed in any way, yet these feminazis make it sound like it's just the prostitutes who get the harsh treatment, and guess what? You don't have to kill these prostitutes at all, you can just drive away if you want. It's a videogame, in the end you're suppose to have fun, laugh, and a great time, yet now we have people questioning everything, why does Princess Peach have so many emotions, why does Smash Bros not have enough playable woman?, etc.

I do believe the later is called "discussing potential issues within a game", or rather "acknowledging that you can, in fact, have fun playing a game while realising that these things are not so great". I've stated it before that these games existing is not the problem but the lack of anything else is the problem, which i'll discuss later seeing as you seem to have a problem with that.

Saints Row III and Postal 2

2 whole games, incredible.

I never understood why it mattered to this degree, both male and female protagonists are awesome in many unique different ways, Lara Croft from the Tomb Raider reboot is a complete badass and displays woman in a very positive light. I see no mention of TV shows which have more male protagonists then female protagonists. Which brings me to my next question, why is that videogames is the hot subject to tackle? What about movies, tv shows? That I don't get. Maybe there could be more female protagonists but in the end it shouldn't matter, what should matter is having an awesome likeable protagonist, male or female. I guess there could be a bit more female's but in the end, a videogame is for pure fun for me, and I don't think most people care what gender the protagonist is.

"I don't think most people care what gender the protagonist is." and yet whenever people ask for more female protagonists people whine that gender shouldn't matter. People wanting more diversity in protagonist genders is not bad, not just in games but in movies and other media as well (Which does get noticed but in these days games is much worse for creators wanting to stick to the "strong male character lead" trope than what movies and tv shows do).

No, it shouldn't matter what gender a protag is and yet people are so reluctant to make a variety of genders in protagonists, and throw that "it doesn't matter" excuse in everyone's face.

The bread and butter right here. There's woman who have no say in other countries, yet videogames is the hot topic to tackle? You act as if this hasn't been said before, believe me game devs ARE noticing, and you know what, majority of them ignore and do what they usually do. It's trivial to complain about your portrayal in games. I have few female friends and none of them ever question that type of stuff, they just enjoy the game the way it's suppose to be enjoyed. There are often videogames where MEN are also portrayed in a very negative way, whether it be selling his body for sex, or just being there just to kill, it doesn't matter. Both men and women are often portrayed equally, both humans who can be killed within the game. These feminazis are always disproven by millions of others and you know what they do? Block them, disable comments, etc. What's the point of tackling a subject they're always wrong in? These people always censor out others not allowing them to get a word out when they are proven wrong by others. I mean yeah there are those that sent death threats to Anita (that I don't support) but there are others who have tried to nicely reason with her, but those people have also ultimately been shunned by her in the end.

"Equally". If there was "equal" treatment in how women and men are portrayed in games how come there are women complaining about the lack of variety in the first place? Right enough you get your extremists wanting to take things out of context for the sake of complaining but there are still people, or less extreme feminists who still take issue with the way diversity is handled and do you think these are the sort of people who complain over nothing? I as a female gamer much like your friends still enjoy playing games as they are now, regardless of how females are represented but also as a female gamer understand that there is not that many games that do not portray females in such a negative light which could ultimately put off females from the gaming industry as a whole.

Let's put it this way; imagine if it was the other way around. The majority of protagonists are strong females with a variety of personalities within the different series. While males on the other hand, while there are some good ones out there, the majority of them have nothing but bare chests and gigantic bulges and have fuck all personality other than the "oooooh protag please save me~". If this is what the majority of the big games (emphasis on big games here because i'd like to note here that the games that do have diverse females are tiny names, with Bayonetta, Portal and Tomb Raider being the biggest) would you really be invested in games?

Well I don't want to see Anita hit at all, so I do apologise for that, but how you just lowered down to the swearing show's how most feminazis (not implying you're one) respond to these claims, they always resort to the insult tactic. Did you see any direct swears in my response? Yet you're response is by saying I'm having a "stupid ass rage" was completely rude and uncalled for.

I'm not the one who said that someone should be hit for doing something wrong and yet i'm the one who's called rude? I won't deny it was rather rude but i'd rather not go into these "what is the worse insult" game.

EDIT : "going against a mods opinion is going to really affect me" Leave mod status out of this. If you want a discussion this is what i'm providing you with (or rather attempting, I understand I will sound harsh which is un-intentional and I do apologise for where ever that is the case), so do not think of this as "going against a mod" if a discussion is what you want, otherwise you're essentially asking for it to "affect you".

[OCG]

I am on Rayfist's side fully and sorry to anyone who disagrees with him. I do not want to insult you, but what Rayfist said are facts and the only truth regarding to whole situation.

If there was "equal" treatment in how women and men are portrayed in games how come there are women complaining about the lack of variety in the first place?

Those who complained are not even real gamers and are doing it for attention. Have you watched the video I left in earlier reply?

[Serza5]

If there was "equal" treatment in how women and men are portrayed in games how come there are women complaining about the lack of variety in the first place?

Those who complained are not even real gamers and are doing it for attention. Have you watched the video I left in earlier reply?

I like how you completely disregarded the fact that I am a female gamer who is clearly complaining about this, not to mention Candish earlier is another gamer who clearly disapproves of this. Not to mention you acknowledge there are non-extremist feminists and guess what? They complain about it.

[iHeckler9]

If there was "equal" treatment in how women and men are portrayed in games how come there are women complaining about the lack of variety in the first place?

Those who complained are not even real gamers and are doing it for attention. Have you watched the video I left in earlier reply?

This is why he's on my foes list.

[Rayfist]

2 whole games, incredible.

Fallout, Leisure suit larry, and there's also gay stereotypes in GTA, I could go on if you really want.

"I don't think most people care what gender the protagonist is." and yet whenever people ask for more female protagonists people whine that gender shouldn't matter. People wanting more diversity in protagonist genders is not bad, not just in games but in movies and other media as well (Which does get noticed but in these days games is much worse for creators wanting to stick to the "strong male character lead" trope than what movies and tv shows do).

No, it shouldn't matter what gender a protag is and yet people are so reluctant to make a variety of genders in protagonists, and throw that "it doesn't matter" excuse in everyone's face.

Diversity is fine, but when it comes to the point of being "HAVE THIS AND THAT" is when it reaches the point of just demanding. Why does it matter? I respect what you're saying, but at the same time, whatever comes out of it shouldn't be the basis for an argument, or the sole reason to start some petitions.

"Equally". If there was "equal" treatment in how women and men are portrayed in games how come there are women complaining about the lack of variety in the first place? Right enough you get your extremists wanting to take things out of context for the sake of complaining but there are still people, or less extreme feminists who still take issue with the way diversity is handled and do you think these are the sort of people who complain over nothing? I as a female gamer much like your friends still enjoy playing games as they are now, regardless of how females are represented but also as a female gamer understand that there is not that many games that do not portray females in such a negative light which could ultimately put off females from the gaming industry as a whole.

Yet there are a lot of portrayals of men too, there are portrayals for every type of person there could possible be, physically insane, smart, etc, for both male AND female. There are a ridiculous amount of games that woman could enjoy getting into gaming, more then there are bad, the rating system (it differs from Europe and NA), is what tells us everything, this is the exact same thing with movies, as I've said. I can understand wanting a bit more diversity but the problem is Anita is going BEYOND that, she's reaching limits that is just outright (not gonna say dictator-ish), demanding. I mean of course if the game has an "M" rating, you have to expect some amount of death or sex from both genders.

but also as a female gamer understand that there is not that many games that do not portray females in such a negative light which could ultimately put off females from the gaming industry as a whole.

The problem I have is they seem to act as if majority of these generic "Damsel in distress" games make up the majority. There are so many games that can suit females properly, more then there are bad, it's just mostly the M rated games most people are turned off by. Practically every Nintendo game is suitable.

Let's put it this way; imagine if it was the other way around. The majority of protagonists are strong females with a variety of personalities within the different series. While males on the other hand, while there are some good ones out there, the majority of them have nothing but bare chests and gigantic bulges and have fuck all personality other than the "oooooh protag please save me~". If this is what the majority of the big games (emphasis on big games here because i'd like to note here that the games that do have diverse females are tiny names, with Bayonetta, Portal and Tomb Raider being the biggest) would you really be invested in games?

Putting gender aside on this particular part, I'm only saying, regardless of which character is bulky, strong, whatever, I think the ultimate thing in the end just boils down to a likeable protagonist (there HAVE been bland female protagonists as well). Why does it matter so much in the end? I'm going to bring it up again, this same thing is in movies, why is it that videogames is the big thing to complain about? Male or Female is fine, I get the big picture here, you want more female protagonists in games, that's fine, but in the end I don't think it should turn off gaming as a whole because of maybe one corkscrew in the industry, I can see it as a bit of a valid complaint but not a "All games can't be enjoyed" type of complaint.

I'm not the one who said that someone should be hit for doing something wrong and yet i'm the one who's called rude? I won't deny it was rather rude but i'd rather not go into these "what is the worse insult" game.

I guess we're both a bit guilty here, I do apoligise, I was just a little irked when I saw the topic of Anita since it's been everywhere lately.

EDIT : "going against a mods opinion is going to really affect me" Leave mod status out of this. If you want a discussion this is what i'm providing you with (or rather attempting, I understand I will sound harsh which is un-intentional and I do apologise for where ever that is the case), so do not think of this as "going against a mod" if a discussion is what you want, otherwise you're essentially asking for it to "affect you".

Sorry, I'm only afraid of the end result that I'll be ultimately shunned by many for going against your opinion. But I'll let that go.

Also OCG try not to act like I'm a saint here, I'm just trying to express my opinion. :p

[Bradandez]

Holy shit, this is a lot of shit. I'll make my full response when I get home.

[Rayfist]

Try to keep it civil though, Brad.

[OCG]

Looking forward to read it Brad.

[Bradandez]

Don't worry Rayfist. I'm proper when it comes this things. I wouldn't stoop low.

[Serza5]

Fallout, Leisure suit larry, and there's also gay stereotypes in GTA, I could go on if you really want.

It would be beyond the point i'm making anyway. As i'd like to re-iterate I am not denying the existense of such games i'm saying that they are not as plentiful.

Diversity is fine, but when it comes to the point of being "HAVE THIS AND THAT" is when it reaches the point of just demanding. Why does it matter? I respect what you're saying, but at the same time, whatever comes out of it shouldn't be the basis for an argument, or the sole reason to start some petitions.

[...]

Putting gender aside on this particular part, I'm only saying, regardless of which character is bulky, strong, whatever, I think the ultimate thing in the end just boils down to a likeable protagonist (there HAVE been bland female protagonists as well). Why does it matter so much in the end? I'm going to bring it up again, this same thing is in movies, why is it that videogames is the big thing to complain about? Male or Female is fine, I get the big picture here, you want more female protagonists in games, that's fine, but in the end I don't think it should turn off gaming as a whole because of maybe one corkscrew in the industry, I can see it as a bit of a valid complaint but not a "All games can't be enjoyed" type of complaint.

It matters because if we have this "who cares" attitude then nothing's going to change. The problem is not even the fact we have more male protagonists but this idea of having a female protagonist- or just a strong female character in general is something that's treated as being so rare and daring that companies just opt for the "safer" male route.

A strong character in the end is the most important yes but while having a female could be seen as "diversity for the sake of diversity" there's even less reason for characters to be male unless the story has something which relates to issues of that gender.

As for why it's so important in games is because, as mentioned, the lack of diversity in movies and any other media is no where near as bad as they are in games. Not only that but the gaming community as well has a toxic attitude towards women; this is 2014 and for whatever reason "go in the kitchen and make me a sammich" jokes still exist and let's not forget "fake gamer girls". Now yes- dare I say "not all men" in the gaming community is like this but it still exists. Best place to go for examples is any female gaming youtuber's comments and dare try and tell me you don't see anything along the lines of those sort of remarks or "oh you're so sexy and you like games, I wanna fuck you".

I guess we're both a bit guilty here, I do apoligise, I was just a little irked when I saw the topic of Anita since it's been everywhere lately.

[...]

Sorry, I'm only afraid of the end result that I'll be ultimately shunned by many for going against your opinion. But I'll let that go.

Also OCG try not to act like I'm a saint here, I'm just trying to express my opinion. :p

1. Anita convos irk me too which was why I was trying to pull away from the whole discussion about her specifically.
2. I do believe I am the only mod who has this stance anyway, if anything I bet I am the one who is ultimately shunned by most members here for stating what seems to be such an un-popular opinion around here (Not that it's far from the only one).

[Rayfist]

It would be beyond the point i'm making anyway. As i'd like to re-iterate I am not denying the existense of such games i'm saying that they are not as plentiful.

Which is true, but GTA tries to portray the ghetto, I've never seen any male prostitutes around here before, but of course they exist, I think they're looking towards the large and more plentiful, here in America at least.

It matters because if we have this "who cares" attitude then nothing's going to change. The problem is not even the fact we have more male protagonists but this idea of having a female protagonist- or just a strong female character in general is something that's treated as being so rare and daring that companies just opt for the "safer" male route.

I think regardless of what attitude we bring not much will change. People have also claimed some games to be racist (because a lack of a black protagonist), that have garnered up a lot of attention in the past. Game devs do what they do. Look at how Betilla was changed in Origins. I just think it's a repetitive argument, games should still be enjoyed by many, whether you're black, white, hispanic, male or female. I think the majority shouldn't affect you to such a great deal to go about protesting on the internet, and in the end, it really hinders your experience.

As for why it's so important in games is because, as mentioned, the lack of diversity in movies and any other media is no where near as bad as they are in games.

Really? I've seen just as much deaths of woman or used as objects, if not more in movies, Serbian Film being a noteable example, one scene in that movie was FAR worse then anything a game like GTA would ever show (don't look that movie up for your own sake).

Not only that but the gaming community as well has a toxic attitude towards women; this is 2014 and for whatever reason "go in the kitchen and make me a sammich" jokes still exist and let's not forget "fake gamer girls". Now yes- dare I say "not all men" in the gaming community is like this but it still exists. Best place to go for examples is any female gaming youtuber's comments and dare try and tell me you don't see anything along the lines of those sort of remarks or "oh you're so sexy and you like games, I wanna fuck you".

Well the gaming community on its own is an interesting subject. I don't think anything will change the childish behavior of it though, gaming has grown huge, and as expected, huge things often have dumb people in it (Sonic fanbase, my little pony, etc.). The only beef I have with "Fake gamer girls" are just the ones that play for the sake of showing cleavage and nothing more so morons can donate them money, but that on it's own is an entirely different subject.

What I'm trying to say is, the beef we have with Anita is her overanalyzing and nitpicking, going as far as to saying Super Princess Peach (A KIDS GAME) is relating to a womans PMS is just crossing the line, this is why people hate Anita, she cherrypicks. I get the message she's trying to send out but the way she conveys it is so bad and she's only making people look worse in the process. If you're going to have someone represent feminism in gaming, she's not the one you want.

[Serza5]

Which is true, but GTA tries to portray the ghetto, I've never seen any male prostitutes around here before, but of course they exist, I think they're looking towards the large and more plentiful, here in America at least.

Which is what most non-extreme feminists try to go towards. It is not this idea of "females should be more powerful than men" or even "women shouldn't be seen as sex objects" we just want more opportunities to have 1. Strong women and 2. males to be seen as sex objects. Like in GTA, if there are female prostitutes then why shouldn't there be some male ones? You'd give some people some fun that way and all it's doing is replacing some female characters with some male ones, is that so hard? Like sure some people demand the heck out of it but it's one of those changes which are so minor yet make a significant change because you're not giving off this "Hurr hurr females are for sex" image but going "Yooo both men and women can be like this" and ultimately doesn't this make you look better?

I think regardless of what attitude we bring not much will change. People have also claimed some games to be racist (because a lack of a black protagonist), that have garnered up a lot of attention in the past. Game devs do what they do. Look at how Betilla was changed in Origins. I just think it's a repetitive argument, games should still be enjoyed by many, whether you're black, white, hispanic, male or female. I think the majority shouldn't affect you to such a great deal to go about protesting on the internet, and in the end, it really hinders your experience.

[...]

Well the gaming community on its own is an interesting subject. I don't think anything will change the childish behavior of it though, gaming has grown huge, and as expected, huge things often have dumb people in it (Sonic fanbase, my little pony, etc.). The only beef I have with "Fake gamer girls" are just the ones that play for the sake of showing cleavage and nothing more so morons can donate them money, but that on it's own is an entirely different subject.

I despise this attitude of things won't change therefore we should not do it. Right enough there will always be that idiot that refuses to change but that does not mean that some people can't change and if some people can change those people can potentially change more people and thus the loops go on. We, as a species, are forever changing and evolving so I consider it ludicrous to think that something can't be changed, or more appropriately "evolve".

I also think it's wrong of you to tell people how they should enjoy games. Some people yes, can enjoy a game because it lacks "female" or "black" protagonists but simply put some people don't and there's nothing wrong with that. Nor is there anything wrong with wanting a game where you can enjoy playing a protagonist that's of your race and gender. If anything it shows that there are people interested in games, just that they haven't found the game they wish to get into yet. Yes of course there are games out there for them already but they need to be more visible, they need much more attention so they can see them and play them and thus enjoy games.

Really? I've seen just as much deaths of woman or used as objects, if not more in movies, Serbian Film being a noteable example, one scene in that movie was FAR worse then anything a game like GTA would ever show (don't look that movie up for your own sake).

It isn't so much "which industry has shown worse examples of this" but more so "which industry provides more opportunities to see females in a positive light". This, being the key point in my whole argument. You can tell me that there are games with strong females and that there are movies which have worse sexism than GTA but overall I can pick up more movies which has good female roles as opposed to games.

What I'm trying to say is, the beef we have with Anita is her overanalyzing and nitpicking, going as far as to saying Super Princess Peach (A KIDS GAME) is relating to a womans PMS is just crossing the line, this is why people hate Anita, she cherrypicks. I get the message she's trying to send out but the way she conveys it is so bad and she's only making people look worse in the process. If you're going to have someone represent feminism in gaming, she's not the one you want.

Again you're still trying to bring Anita into this. I have stated multiple times that yes, she is not the feminist icon the gaming industry needs, yes she's a con and nitpicks at everything, I know all that because I do not approve of such.

[Jewish Candy]

I'm glad people have started to choose words more carefully now. So glad in fact, that imma contribute!

The thing about movies, books etc. is that they are old media and have been subject to scrutiny, including feminist scrutiny, for a long time now. Videogaming is young, 40 years old at best! Additionally parts of the gamer community have a bizarre and threatening level of vitriol towards women in games that cinema and tv aficionados have, for want of a better word, 'grown out of' (though not entirely, online these groups overlap considerably). And it's not the case that feminists focus entirely on videogames, there is a lot levelled at movies for their poor representation too - in fact feminism overall seems much more concerned with old media than new, its us younger ones who are leading the charge on gaming.

As for 'nothing will change' - that's patently silly. But let's take that argument in good faith: let's say that it's a possibility nothing will change if we highlight it. Well it's a certainty that nothing will change if we don't. That argument reeks of 'calm down dearies'.
Also, "it really hinders your experience"? Yes, that's exactly why we talk about it and try to change problematic stuff. You need to understand that this lack of representation grates, and I'm not just talking about women: I'm talking about POC, LGBTQIA+ etc. We ARE enjoying games, despite not having our experiences be adequately represented. And it would be nice if this thing that we love represented us more. I also think that this focus on the 'cishet white male' is damaging to said cishet white males it caters for. They're being trapped in your own tiny experience, or occasionally their own tiny imaginary experience of other people's experiences. Think of how much broader and more interesting gaming could be. I see no reason why we should be talking about that and asking for that.

Also, you seem to be focused on Anita as a leader in feminism. I regret to inform you feminism is a rather large movement and she is but a drop in the ocean. Furthermore, Serz explicitly stated, repeatedly, that she's not a fan - yet you returned again and again to 'Anita this Anita that'.

EDIT: Ninja'd by the ever eloquent Serza.

[Adsolution]

I started typing this after Serza's second post, so it ignores most things that happened afterward:

I also completely agree with Serza (a total 180 from her previous post) regarding the 'appealing to worse problems' (I didn't actually read Brad's post until this morning because I didn't really have the time). All situations are relative, and everyone should address the things they feel it's their place to. If we all only focused on the worst of what the world has to offer from day to day, we would be miserable, depressed and broken. Additionally, I think it would be downright unethical to only have everyone focus on one thing in particular, that's essentially saying "as long as the worst is still out there, we can ignore smaller problems and allow them to fester." No, that's why we're a society, we all have our own roles. Leave assault or, likewise, prejudice in video games, to those who are better equipped to handle each area respectively.

and also realised the effect that choice of language can have on women who have indeed been hit more times than they can count "by a real woman/(man)".

If I always acted on the daunting notion that absolutely any joke I make could have an effect on someone (humour in virtually all cases comes at the expense of someone/something), then I would probably piss off more people with my inability to take a joke than I would otherwise. Sure, my friend was raped prior to committing suicide, but I'm not going to criticise someone that could have in no way possibly known that who had made a rape/suicide joke while taking part in a conversation I was never even a part of before, especially when it's abundantly clear that they weren't being at all serious. Sure, it could bring back some lousy memories, but so does the coaster I keep on my desk, and that's not its fault.


Just a couple things:

Ok so it's not the video game's fault in itself but the problem is the fact that there's a distinct lack of games that do not have strong female characters and by strong I mean ones that are not there to be sex objects or killing spree objects. Now just to emphasise; I AM NOT SAYING THERE ARE NOT GAMES WITH NO STRONG FEMALE CHARACTERS I AM SAYING THAT THERE IS A LOT MORE GAMES THAT DO NOT.

There just happen to be more male directors in the scene, and really, it would be far more likely for a male to have a better idea of how to write a male character than he would a female one, therefore he'd likely end up writing a male character - males and females are not the exact same. The higher amount of male directors is probably carried over from the only relatively recent gender equality stuff; I'm sure that in a few decades, you will be seeing more female characters, as there will be more women in creative positions.

I don't really see our current position as much of a problem, because I can guarantee that the uncountable majority are completely in favour of gender equality, it simply takes time for the aftermath to play out, and I don't think compromising artistic integrity while we wait is a suitable way to speed things up.

TL;DR : I do think that the way being feminism being handled in gaming is not 100% perfect but the way you people put it here really irked me last night and still sorta do now.

People who make these jokes don't actually want to see it happen, it's just a way of expressing anger through obscene humour. On the other hand, the people who manage to get a video game banned off the shelves of some of the biggest chain stores aren't joking, and are actually just as moronic as the words that come out of their mouth. They will do whatever is in their power to get their way. Good for them, I suppose, but they're harming society and need to be shut down.

No, just direct comparisons between people who happen to disagree with you and a fascist regime that murdered millions of innocent people.

To be fair, would you want any of them in power? They would make the stupidest decisions that most people would be sensible enough to not make, likely because most are aware, despite their beliefs, that they aren't the most informed of us all.

Also, you seem to be focused on Anita as a leader in feminism. I regret to inform you feminism is a rather large movement and she is but a drop in the ocean. Furthermore, Serz explicitly stated, repeatedly, that she's not a fan - yet you returned again and again to 'Anita this Anita that'.

I make sure to always use the term 'feminazi' as opposed to 'feminism' when talking about extremists so as to avoid confusion. We're all feminists, you'd be hard-pressed to come across someone who isn't at this point in time.

[Jewish Candy]

Don't misrepresent me. It is not your fault if you accidentally stepped on my foot, and I'm very glad you stepped off it once I told you. Oh but wait, you seem a little peeved that I let you know.

Your joke was utterly hilarious, Ad, make no mistake. But think of the funnier jokes you could have made if, instead of throwing context out the window, you - and the others - had chosen language that didn't relate so directly to, you know, the threats against that woman, the violence committed on a daily basis, etc.? You guys were so gleeful about it too, god, and I say that while fully believing you intend no harm. My point was that it was unecessary. My bigger point, which you have supported, is that 'appeal to worse problems' is shit and I didn't appreciate being used as cannon fodder.

I posted that in order to show support for Serz and explain to people why, despite posting, I was not in fact going to get involved at that point in time. It was not a 'boohoo pity me' post, I didn't even want to make it initially - it took kind coaxing for me to even approach this topic.

But this is Off-Topic, so if you have any more to say probs PM?

[Rayfist]

Which is what most non-extreme feminists try to go towards. It is not this idea of "females should be more powerful than men" or even "women shouldn't be seen as sex objects" we just want more opportunities to have 1. Strong women and 2. males to be seen as sex objects. Like in GTA, if there are female prostitutes then why shouldn't there be some male ones? You'd give some people some fun that way and all it's doing is replacing some female characters with some male ones, is that so hard? Like sure some people demand the heck out of it but it's one of those changes which are so minor yet make a significant change because you're not giving off this "Hurr hurr females are for sex" image but going "Yooo both men and women can be like this" and ultimately doesn't this make you look better?

You really want males to be seen as sex objects? Demanding one gender is higher then the other is already a bit sexist in itself. (Read the part where you said you wanted it for both male and females so don't get too upset with that part) Even in real life you can't deny the fact more male prostitutes is less plentiful than woman. As I've said before I think Rockstar aims for more plentiful, again, male prostitutes do exist but in America compared to woman prostitutes that is rare. There are also degrading things for men within the game too, such as drug addicts. Hell, if I remember correctly, in GTA IV there were some moments where woman were presented in a positive light. Nobody ever complained about this before until Anita started the trend (yes I know I'm mentioning her again), it just goes to show that people are simply complaining for the sake of complaining and nitpicking. And as I've said before, it's an M rated game, of course one gender is going to be viewed negatively. And there are definitely actually quite a good amount of games with "smart" or "strong" female characters, sure they may not be triple A titles, but there's still a pretty decent amount, Metroid being a prime (no pun intended) example. I compare movies because it's not that significant of a difference in the end, if not more with movies.

I despise this attitude of things won't change therefore we should not do it. Right enough there will always be that idiot that refuses to change but that does not mean that some people can't change and if some people can change those people can potentially change more people and thus the loops go on. We, as a species, are forever changing and evolving so I consider it ludicrous to think that something can't be changed, or more appropriately "evolve".

I'm not saying nothing shouldn't be said, but I think the approach you guys are taking isn't going to convey anything, you're only hurting the developer in the end and coming across as a bit forceful.

I also think it's wrong of you to tell people how they should enjoy games.

Huh? Where did I say "you should enjoy this game this way", I'm simply stating I think that you shouldn't let a little corkscrew hinder your entire experience, it's my suggestion.

Some people yes, can enjoy a game because it lacks "female" or "black" protagonists but simply put some people don't and there's nothing wrong with that. Nor is there anything wrong with wanting a game where you can enjoy playing a protagonist that's of your race and gender. If anything it shows that there are people interested in games, just that they haven't found the game they wish to get into yet. Yes of course there are games out there for them already but they need to be more visible, they need much more attention so they can see them and play them and thus enjoy games.

Again, you have a somewhat valid point, but the problem leads to the outright demanding behavior, which won't change anything. Dev's have been through odd times, I don't speak for the majority but I can ensure that they just keep doing what they will do. Any gamer will be gladly happy with a male or female protagonist, going as far as to just complaining about "Why isn't the main character in Tomb Raider a male?" really just sounds like you're not enjoying anything with the game and letting maybe one small issue hinder a great experience.

As for 'nothing will change' - that's patently silly.

Because the message going on right now is totally working, right?

Also, "it really hinders your experience"? Yes, that's exactly why we talk about it and try to change problematic stuff.

Going far as to writing essays on why you think "this thing is bad" has to be upsetting you some way, maybe not the entire experience, but if you're convincing us with essays upon essays of why this is bad of COURSE we're going to think your experience is being hindered.

Also, you seem to be focused on Anita as a leader in feminism. I regret to inform you feminism is a rather large movement and she is but a drop in the ocean. Furthermore, Serz explicitly stated, repeatedly, that she's not a fan - yet you returned again and again to 'Anita this Anita that'.

Did you read from the start? That's how the conversation started, it's fine to see Serza is fully aware Anita is an idiot but my main gripe is feminism with games in general, I would love to see more female protagonists but you all go such far lengths to tell people they're wrong. And in the end it not only hurts yourself but others.

Again you're still trying to bring Anita into this. I have stated multiple times that yes, she is not the feminist icon the gaming industry needs, yes she's a con and nitpicks at everything, I know all that because I do not approve of such.

How did this conversation start? Anita is the one who made it the trend, she started the massive feminism in gaming trend, so of course it will be mentioned.

What Ad said if feminism is all about just wanting equality, I'm all up for it, but this isn't the way to handle things.

I'm not saying "You shouldn't complain about this" I'm simply stating in the end it's a really trivial thing to complain about.

And I don't mind the wanting more diversity but this is NOT the way to convey it.

[saerleiya]

Oh damn it...Addy ninja'd my own idea.

Serza, you said there are not a lot of games where you can play as a strong female character. There are actually a few video game companies doing this thing and focusing on it. This is the very reason why I like one of them, Bioware.

In most Bioware games (or at least the last few ones), you can create entirely your own character, man/woman, black/white, etc...okay many games do that, but they do it in a very interesting way: in the Mass Effect trilogy, your main character is a commander of the army of Humanity. Do you know a lot of games that popular where you can play a strong high-ranked officer who is a woman?
And you know what? I actually prefered to play the female character more than the male one (precision: in Mass Effect, the voice of your character is the same for a gender), mainly because the female voice had way more personality. I like to create and play female characters in general, not because, you know, "basic stuff", but because I find it more entertaining to play a character I could never be (or somebody invented this magic device that can change genders).

What I wanted to point out here is, yes, we can talk about games showing the syndromes and bad habits of the past, but if we only do that, it will keep coming back over andover again. Why not focusing on those daring to put non-stereotypical homosexual relationships in their content or daring to give a very interesting shape to every of their characters' personality? I agree with Serza on this, although I would like to add it's better focusing on games which matter in a good way than on those who don't. That's why I don't play GTA, I guess...

Do not deny negativity, but try to transform it into good, positive things rather than putting it aside as "we're done with this, it's bad".
About the Anita thing, unfortunately this is the Internet, the place where it is way easier to disagree with people and threatening them while hiding behind your screen.


I probably think there will be another post here at the same time as mine