Sonic the Hedgehog

[buildersith]

I've actually thought about this on multiple occasions, and the more I think about the more I sadly start to agree that perhaps classic Sonic wasn't as great as we first thought. Don't get me wrong I don't think they're bad, but I think they are overated and in the end are mediocre, average, not worth writing home about. After all, the main gimmick of Sonic is the speed, but when you think about it, what does the speed actually change? The only conclusion I can come to is nothing. Stages in Mario and Sonic Roughly take the same amount of time to complete, because Sonic ztages are larger to accompany Sonic's speed. Of course the level design between both games are drastically different, Sonic being slightly more open ended than Mario, but thats about the only thing about classic Sonic that seems different to Mario. And in my personal taste, and also being brutally honest, I find 2D Mario boring as shit so consequently the more I thought about it, the less and less classic Sonic appeals to me. I suppose the question then is, whats different about other platformers, lets say Rayman 1 and Megaman X, that makes me enjoy them a hell of a lot more than 2D Mario and Sonic? Well the simple answer is that other platformers offer a lot more to me than just platforming and getting from point A to point B, Megaman X for example has fast paced combat to go along with platforming, as well as the ablity to upgrade X and get stronger the more I play. Same with Rayman actually, but Rayman also offered me more exploration, and in a more creative and interesting world, than Sonic whose exploration consisted of finding slightly different paths to the exit.

Long story short: I think the reasons people are saying Classic Sonic was never good all of a sudden is because they're now comparing them to other platformers that have came out since, done what Sonic did, but added more to it and madde it more rewarding. I dont fully agree with a statement like that personally so the way I'd personally put it is Classic Sonic is good, but since its release what its done has been done better by other games.

Sorry for how badly this whole post has been written, I've had trouble sleeping the past few days and I am exhausted, but hopefully I managed to get my thoughts on the matter across.

[Rayfist]

It's the complexity/physics of Sonic that make it so great. Sonic's speed changes how you hop from platform to platform, it isn't as forgiving as Mario, you need to jump precisely and tilt a little more. Don't get me wrong, this is coming from someone who prefers Mario. But I think over the years we lost the meaning of why we enjoyed Sonic. Look at it this way: It's essentially a platformer with a few speed elements here and there, and THAT is what Sonic did right. Sonic's physics had so much complexity to it that many other platformers just didn't have.

Honestly Rayman 1 and Megaman X are just LEAGUES beyond better than both Mario and Sonic, so bringing them into this conversation kind of loses its purpose for me. I do agree with your thoughts on Megaman X's pacing though, that's what makes it so great. Same with Rayman's more interesting and fascinating exploration.

I think the reasons people are saying Classic Sonic was never good all of a sudden is because they're now comparing them to other platformers that have came out since, done what Sonic did, but added more to it and madde it more rewarding. I dont fully agree with a statement like that personally so the way I'd personally put it is Classic Sonic is good, but since its release what its done has been done better by other games.

I'm inclined to disagree. Even during the awful era with games like 06 where 2D mascot platformers were behind the shelf for the most part, people would constantly look back towards the greater times for Sonic as a reference. I think I know the answer. I noticed this trend became a huge outroar when games like Boom were released. People have a huge bias against the series. Adventure, despite being a bad game, we started to go after that, forgetting the few things it did right and outright calling it shit, soon enough, the original Sonic games were tackled, and not for the reasons you listed, but for the reasons I mentioned before.

There's no doubt there have been many platformers that have surpassed Sonic dramatically, like the ones you brought up, but at the same time, let's not forget what Sonic also did right, I feel as if we're losing the reason as to why, and certainly not for the reasons you listed. We're starting to become very oblivious as what the classic Sonic games succeeded in and it's a bit upsetting.

I'm starting to see Crash Bandicoot being tackled too similar to Sonic.

[buildersith]

Actually you do have a point because until you just mentioned it I never even took how good and importants Sonics reliance on physics were into consideration. I actually did consider the possibilty that perhaps the most recent games, bar Generations, had just tarnished tbe franchise as a whole for a lot of people, so again I do think your onto something.
So maybe you're right, I still don't think Classic Sonic was amazing but I do think your right in saying that its still important to remeber what it did right, which was the physics and just for being mechanically solid.

[Rayfist]

Correct, I also don't really mind the fact Sonic comes to occasional halts where you'll have to jump through platforms. Sonic wasn't marketed fully as 'speed' like people say. It was marketed as an 'action platformer', having to stop every now and then to do some platforming to me isn't a huge deal as long as the level can deliver some coherence and good structure.

[Pirez]

I personnally thought Sonic had a flawed concept to begin with : you need to move too fast to be in the mood of the game, but moving too fast will propel you into traps you couldn't possibly foresee unless you're dating a psychic gamer. Regardless, the presentation of the Megadrive games were amazing (including Sonic 3 which was fucking flawless), which I think made the public fall in love with the franchise. ProJared said it himself in his SA2 review : "This would be unacceptable in any game, but who cares, it's Sonic!"

I think that people fell in love with the universe rather than the gameplay. But then people grow up and realize that a blue Hedgehog... Yeah, that's a tad ridiculous. And then their eye (now tainted with cynicism) looks back at the game judging on the gameplay and, though they are solid, like I said the concept is flawed to begin with. So in my eyes, the downfall of the 2D games was kinda inevitable.

Plus, it's trendy to hate.

[Rayfist]

I personnally thought Sonic had a flawed concept to begin with : you need to move too fast to be in the mood of the game, but moving too fast will propel you into traps you couldn't possibly foresee unless you're dating a psychic gamer.

I disagree here, a lot of the objects on screen are hardly much faster than Mario when running at full speed. That's EXACTLY what the spindash is made for, to trample over every enemy, rendering that common critique rather useless. I really don't understand why everyone jumps into Sonic without using the spindash, you're practically open to enemy attack in every direction. Jumping also makes you invincible to enemies, there are reasons as to why these things exist, but people seemingly forget it to fit their own logic. The whole "speed kills" argument is hard to take seriously when the game offers these options. It's like playing Megaman without using the Mega Buster honestly. Sure you'll still have to avoid spikes which you aren't invincible too but they aren't a massive deal as opposed to all the enemies and are usually fairly easy to see coming.

I think the true problem with the classic Sonic games is it's faulty progression, Sonic 1 doesn't have a spindash so a lot of the problems you mention are present, but I refuse to believe this with 2 or 3.

ProJared said it himself in his SA2 review : "This would be unacceptable in any game, but who cares, it's Sonic!"

Different game, a bad one at that. I pretty much agreed with Jared in all of that. Also I'm pretty sure he LIKES the classic Sonic games, so that's an iffy example there.

I think that people fell in love with the universe rather than the gameplay.

Quite the opposite actually, I've seen people mention on numerous occasions how it always "should've just sticked to Sonic." The universe expanding is exactly what people are disliking.

Don't get me wrong, I'm the last one you'd see defending Sonic, I've criticized the hell out of his 3D games, I just think this weird trendy hate that's happened towards the classic games recently has been unnecessary. I tried to look at the whole "speed kills" argument with optimism and understanding but after swiftly replaying these titles I just don't see it.

[Pirez]

I disagree here, a lot of the objects on screen are hardly much faster than Mario when running at full speed. That's EXACTLY what the spindash is made for, to trample over every enemy, rendering that common critique rather useless. Jumping also makes you invincible, there are reasons as to why these things exist. The whole "speed kills" argument is hard to take seriously when the game offers these. It's like playing Megaman without using the Mega Buster honestly.

I was thinking more in the likes of wall-spikes, actually. Jumping doesn't do shit against these. And you don't have to run at full speed playing Mario. That's not the core mechanic nor is it the main incentive of the game.

Different game, a bad one at that. I pretty much agreed with Jared in all of that. Also I'm pretty sure he LIKES the classic Sonic games, so that's an iffy example there.

People forgive SA2 because of the Megadrive games. If people didn't fall in love with the 2D-games, they couldn't have forgiven the 3D-ones because they would just be discovering the character.

Quite the opposite actually, I've seen people mention on numerous occasions how it always "should've just sticked to Sonic." The universe expanding is exactly what people are disliking.

Let me rephrase that : people fell in love with the universe of the Megadrive games. It's true that fans began mewling when Big the Cat showed up (can't blame them). But back then? A supersonic hedgehog that can turn Super Saiyan? Sign me the fuck in.

[Rayfist]

I was thinking more in the likes of wall-spikes, actually. Jumping doesn't do shit against these. And you don't have to run at full speed playing Mario. That's not the core mechanic nor is it the main incentive of the game.

And nor was it with Sonic. Sonic was marketed as an action platformer with speed elements. I don't see what's so difficult to stop in your tracks to gain your momentum back in literally half a second using spindash, that's the fucking point of a platformer. It's not as bad as people overexaggerate it to be. The spikes aren't like enemies where they move across the screen, they are at the VERY end of the screen giving you more than enough time to react. I had my girlfriend play 2 and 3 last week and while her tracks were stopped a lot, she found it pretty forgiving. Newcomers who don't watch these youtube e-celebs seem to not have many problems with it.

People forgive SA2 because of the Megadrive games. If people didn't fall in love with the 2D-games, they couldn't have forgiven the 3D-ones because they would just be discovering the character.

SA2 is a whole different ball game, but you're probably right on that. Sonic Adventure 2 is indeed a bad game.

Let me rephrase that : people fell in love with the universe of the Megadrive games. It's true that fans began mewling when Big the Cat showed up (can't blame them). But back then? A supersonic hedgehog that can turn Super Saiyan? Sign me the fuck in.

Let's go back, imagine Bubsy is the main guy behind SEGA. The games clearly would get negative reception. System mascots have indeed failed before, look at that Atari Jaguar racing game. Sonic may not be the perfect speed thrilling platformer everyone expects it to be, but if offers very tight controls and like I said physics, bopping off from one enemy to the next is usually pretty nice. There's no doubting people fell in love with the Sonic universe, but there's a reason why the classics are still enjoyed by many and replayed by both adults and kids alike. Sure Sonic has a god awful fanbase but don't let that distract people from remembering what he did right in the gameplay department. Just because some e-celeb on youtube told you the games weren't good doesn't mean he or she is right.

I do think the first Sonic game is heavily flawed, but I'm really annoyed by this trend when a lot of these complaints are practically non-existant. I get majority of these people think they have a PHD in game design, but think about it. Sonic was crowded amongst a lot of iffy platformers. It stands out as being playable, the games aren't for everyone, I get that, but I really think a lot of the flaws (And while they do have some) you people have tried to lay on me, I, and many others haven't came across these as much as you all say it occurs.

[Pirez]

Let's go back, imagine Bubsy is the main guy behind SEGA.

Actually, that would be lovel6hvejv///bu'éevççzebvf58fb|||_verigzffjfbzoziiririr

[Rayfist]

You aren't controlling me, Sigma.

[NyaNyaLily]

Just a quick question, what is the best version of Sonic Adventure? Because I'm planning to play Sonic Adventure someday. But I don't own a dreamcast, so what's the best version of Sonic Adventure outside the dreamcast version?

[Pirez]

There's not that many options : You have the DX remake on the GameCube and that's about it, really.

[NyaNyaLily]

Ah well, that should do it.

[Rayfist]

Dreamcast version, just emulate. While the game is already bad, the GC version is even buggier than the Dreamcast one.

[NyaNyaLily]

Well in that case, is the PC version on steam any good? Or is it buggier than the GC port?

[Rayfist]

STEAM version is pretty awful, but the original PC release was not too shabby.

I recommend either Dreamcast or original PC version. They have this ugly cell shader on the steam version.

[RibShark]

The GC version on Dolphin with widescreen AR codes looks the best but can be buggy. Original PC version can be made to work in widescreen but with a lower FOV, and with slightly worse graphics. Steam version just sucks, don't get it. Never tried original DC version, but I know the textures are very different (and better IMO).

[stan423321]

There's apparently a way to make Steam version work like old PC one. Never tried though!

[Bradandez]

I'm still having a lot of fun with 3D Sonic the Hedgehog.

[Itooh]

Uh, funny how Sega is unable to port correctly their old games. :/ It's like they don't want to keep their heritage.

What I man is: there's a similar problem with Ecco the Dolphin. It has been ported on Steam and 3DS… But also had a Sega-CD version before!
And this Sega-CD remake, which came after the Megadrive original game, had huge graphics improvements, and a totally new OST that was closer to what the original developers intended (they hired the same composer for the sequel)! It has also been adapted for Windows 98, but was never sold separately (it came with Packard Bell computers, if I recall correctly).

The Sega-CD version of Ecco the Dolphin was the best edition released. BUT… When Sega released remakes of the game, they only sold the original Megadrive version. Now I understand that some would prefer the original graphics and sounds, but there could at least be a choice for that! Now playing the fantastic Sega-CD game is impossible without emulation. :/

And the reason it sucks so much is that Ecco is a really incredible game, with an amazing soundtrack! Except that this soundtrack is completely forgotten in favor of the original one (which is also great, but… yeeah, Megadrive). All the amazing work to improve the game has been erased, and Ecco has we see it today is only the Megadrive game, with Megadrive look and sounds.

I don't know if there is a copyright issue, but I'm astonished how Sega seem to have forgotten the work on the game after its Megadrive release. It gives the impression that they only make a Steam port for nostalgic players, and not for the game itself. :/