France

[PluMGMK]

Best explanation I've seen yet for that: https://www.quora.com/Why-do-French-peo ... ard-Briais

[Master]

So, basically, it's a load of crock?

[Adsolution]

Being arrogant is part of the territory.

"but at leas't we're not those stupi d'america !"

really, juxtaposed to almost every european country, america is by far the most self aware. in europe, france is down around there with the slavs except worse because it's a first world country

[Keane]

The northern part of France feels almost kind of surreal to me, it feels like a place disconnected from the rest of the world. Anywhere you go it's just Windows XP backgrounds stretching out, endless highways and occasionally a small town that feels like if you went there 25 years ago it would've been exactly the same. I bet if some Half-Life 2 thing happened in real life and society is practically gone you could go to those towns and absolutely nothing would be different, the Combine wouldn't even care enough to investigate that area.

I'm just stopping here to remind everybody that while the entire world submitted to the wave of insecurity, hatred and bigotry and elected Emmanuel Macron, a young suave eurolover.

What I think is really interesting is that reflecting on the US, Dutch and French elections + Brexit, that even though Trump was laughed at the hardest by everyone it was objectively the election with the biggest scope and the most involved people participating. The EU seemed to just forget that elections come with dozens of policy impacts and instead opted to limit debate to a single topic (Are Browns Bad?) and have very engaged discussion just inside that bubble.

Meanwhile Trump supporters voted on healthcare, socio-politics, taxes, foreign policy, etc. It wasn't like the country was asked "Should we build the wall?" and yes voted Trump, no voted Hillary. Not that people who voted for Trump were really informed on any of those topics (And Hillary supporters neither), but it seems like Americans overall are far more involved with their politics than maybe any other country, and genuinely understand the influence their votes have.

It really makes you think about how Americans are the Mario's of the world, applicable to anything, and Europeans the Luigi's, only relevant when the level is ghost themed.

[Pirez]

Being arrogant is part of the territory.

really, juxtaposed to almost every european country, america is by far the most self aware. in europe, france is down around there with the slavs except worse because it's a first world country

Given that those two sentences do not go with each other, I have trouble determining the level of self-awareness you're operating on.

I'm just stopping here to remind everybody that while the entire world submitted to the wave of insecurity, hatred and bigotry and elected Emmanuel Macron, a young suave eurolover.

The EU seemed to just forget that elections come with dozens of policy impacts and instead opted to limit debate to a single topic (Are Browns Bad?) and have very engaged discussion just inside that bubble.

Actually the focal point of the French election would rather be "Is the Euro bad". Browns (as you put it) certainly came inside the discussion, but more about the economic aftermath of a migration crisis that no one in the EU knew how to tackle properly. Although it's true that we don't hear nearly as much about them (or Syria's crisis in general) now that the election is over.

[Adsolution]

Being arrogant is part of the territory.

really, juxtaposed to almost every european country, america is by far the most self aware. in europe, france is down around there with the slavs except worse because it's a first world country

Given that those two sentences do not go with each other

visual representation of what i said:

[Hunchman801]

Well, as far as I know, most French people refuse to speak any language other than French.

Best explanation I've seen yet for that: https://www.quora.com/Why-do-French-peo ... ard-Briais

This is a great explanation indeed.

I'm a French dude living in London, and I speak English every day, but if I'm in France, and someone comes to me and speaks English without at least attempting to speak French, I'll just plain ignore them. It is inconceivably rude to come to a foreign country and expect everyone there to speak your language, because, hey, you couldn't be arsed to learn theirs.

Of course, if you travel a bit you can't just learn the language of every country you go to. But still, you can spend a few hours before your trip to learn the basics: hello, please, thank you, I don't speak [local language], etc. I do that whenever I go on holiday abroad, and I'll try my best with the words I know before even thinking of switching to another language.

But there's more to it than people being rude. Most of them don't even realize it, and that's because they have learned to accept English as a de facto lingua franca. The US became the first economy at the end of the XIXth century, and during the XXth century they used this tremendous economic power, combined with the new technologies of travel and communication, to spread their language and culture all over the world. It worked incredibly well, to the point that it seems normal to most people now, but some (rightly) stand against this cultural hegemony, which can only lead to more imbalance between Anglo-Saxon countries and the rest of the world, as well as a cultural impoverishment of the planet.

In short: love the English language, hate Anglo-Saxon cultural imperialism.

[Dart]

I'm a French dude living in London, and I speak English every day, but if I'm in France, and someone comes to me and speaks English without at least attempting to speak French, I'll just plain ignore them. It is inconceivably rude to come to a foreign country and expect everyone there to speak your language, because, hey, you couldn't be arsed to learn theirs.

LMAO that's just incredibly rude and presumptuous. Perhaps it's different in Europe but if somebody came up to me or someone else in my neighborhood speaking a foreign language we wouldn't just flat out ignore them (in fact it happens often cause the area has a high Asian immigration rate, and the elders that come with their families usually don't know English.). Like the idea that somebody "couldn't be arsed to learn your language" reeks of arrogance more than it does cultural pride.

Of course, if you travel a bit you can't just learn the language of every country you go to. But still, you can spend a few hours before your trip to learn the basics: hello, please, thank you, I don't speak [local language], etc. I do that whenever I go on holiday abroad, and I'll try my best with the words I know before even thinking of switching to another language.

Not everyone can, cause not all people are tourists and it assumes a bit out of people that may be touring there unexpectedly to magically learn any basic without a smartphone to google translate a proper phrase.

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[Keane]

visual representation of what i said:

that bare difference between france and poland

I'm a French dude living in London, and I speak English every day, but if I'm in France, and someone comes to me and speaks English without at least attempting to speak French, I'll just plain ignore them. It is inconceivably rude to come to a foreign country and expect everyone there to speak your language, because, hey, you couldn't be arsed to learn theirs.

Of course, if you travel a bit you can't just learn the language of every country you go to. But still, you can spend a few hours before your trip to learn the basics: hello, please, thank you, I don't speak [local language], etc. I do that whenever I go on holiday abroad, and I'll try my best with the words I know before even thinking of switching to another language.

No it's not nigguh, how unbelievably European would you have to be to awkwardly pretend someone doesn't exist because they didn't first say "Hi, I don't speak French" before talking to you. And I mean, yeah, it is kind of a dick move to go "This is France, speak French!!" instead of just going "Sorry I don't speak English", that's way ruder than not greeting someone in their own language.

Also like, the whole thing about tourists supposedly getting assmad when you don't speak English is something I just don't really buy, especially not Americans. At least where I live in Burgerland people are generally very hands-off in public and seem deathly afraid to come across as rude or judgemental. I'm sure it happens from time to time but I doubt even half of tourists actually react that way and it's more just become a staple shit-talk at family gatherings the same way Nickelback is the worst band ever. Or in the case of that Quora link, it's not that surprising people are shocked when you get so instantly triggered over their language

which can only lead to more imbalance between Anglo-Saxon countries and the rest of the world

huhw

[Hunchman801]

LMAO that's just incredibly rude and presumptuous. Perhaps it's different in Europe but if somebody came up to me or someone else in my neighborhood speaking a foreign language we wouldn't just flat out ignore them (in fact it happens often cause the area has a high Asian immigration rate, and the elders that come with their families usually don't know English.). Like the idea that somebody "couldn't be arsed to learn your language" reeks of arrogance more than it does cultural pride.

No it's not nigguh, how unbelievably European would you have to be to awkwardly pretend someone doesn't exist because they didn't first say "Hi, I don't speak French" before talking to you. And I mean, yeah, it is kind of a dick move to go "This is France, speak French!!" instead of just going "Sorry I don't speak English", that's way ruder than not greeting someone in their own language.

Well those are two prime examples of cultural arrogance that couldn't prove my point any better. You're basically saying “no, those people aren't rude, you're even more rude”, except that you completely forget that good manners are not universal but differ among countries and cultures. Akin to those who show no respect to locals by refusing to even attempt to speak their language, you show no respect yourselves by judging their behavior through the prism of your Anglo-Saxon culture. It's like saying that Russians are idiots because they don't usually smile to strangers and even consider such a behavior suspicious, while in the UK every (female) cashier will call you love.

You'd probably get angry if a bunch of drunk Russians came to your countries and started arguments with any stranger smiling at them, and that's because you expect them to adapt to your culture when they come over. I can't see why it's so big of a deal to ask the same of you.

huhw

While I can't make much sense of this I have to admit it's a much more valid point than the first part of your message.

[Keane]

Well those are two prime examples of cultural arrogance that couldn't prove my point any better. You're basically saying “no, those people aren't rude, you're even more rude”, except that you completely forget that good manners are not universal but differ among countries and cultures. Akin to those who show no respect to locals by refusing to even attempt to speak their language, you show no respect yourselves by judging their behavior through the prism of your Anglo-Saxon culture. It's like saying that Russians are idiots because they don't usually smile to strangers and even consider such a behavior suspicious, while in the UK every (female) cashier will call you love.

But den why not just bring that up in the first place, regardless of whether anyone agrees with a norm everyone instantly gets that thing = disrespect if you provide the cultural context prior to explaining why you find it offensive. And even then it's like, if I was a Pierre living in Baguette and an Anglomerican comes up to me speaking English I would probably be able to pitch that they're just ignorant and don't realise what they're doing and not actually get angery with them. Should they know that stuff before going to a place? Yeah maybe, but it's totally possible they just glossed over that fact somehow and they don't mean any harm.

So what Quoraman probably shoulda done then is go "well it's just a cultural thing, it's a sign of disrespect", that would've clearly answered what they were asking but instead he just got defensive without context. In fact, his response contradicts the idea that it's a cultural norm since he went and argued that if he'd try talking French over in Burgerland that people would get mad too, but you're saying that we're too narrowly thinking inside our Burgerminds to even realise someone would get offended by it, that don't add up!

You'd probably get angry if a bunch of drunk Russians came to your countries and started arguments with any stranger smiling at them, and that's because you expect them to adapt to your culture when they come over. I can't see why it's so big of a deal to ask the same of you.

I mean, I wouldn't go edgily refusing to speak French if I was in the country but I can still think it's kinda gay. I also think that example isn't entirely the same as like I said if someone started talking in Burgertongue in France you could probably have a moment of "Wait, they just don't know" whereas someone getting up in your face would not have you draw that connection. If someone talks English in France you immediately know that guys a tourist, if someone yells at you in America you'd still assume it's an American.

I also think that, to go into a slightly different subject here, whenever it comes to people being offended by something that doesn't actually cause real harm then it's just kinda pointless to keep being mad about it? Perfect example is how everyone in my family also thinks speaking a foreign language is offensive, but nowadays schools are largely teaching kids to be more bilingual and the offensive context feels like it's not that relevant anymore today. And why should it? If we can be self-aware about it and go "the only reason I'm mad is because I was raised to be and some people a long time ago decided they were gonna get pissed about this and now it's culture", then we realise there's no real reason to be angry.

I think having offensive symbols, words, gestures, etc, are only that if people go out of their way to make themselves feel that way about them. Hence why I'm a literal faggot but can't get angry about someone going "Ha, gay!" to me because gay just isn't an insult anymore, people started realising how silly it is and using it ironically and nowadays if you unironically use gay to insult someone you just come across as a dumbass. Especially considering how bilingualism is integrating with education now I kinda feel like the general opinion on foreign language being offensive might change like that too. Yeah it means a little part of culture is lost along the way, but I personally don't feel like any and all culture should be protected. Calling black people niggers and erecting statues of people who lynched blackos used to be American culture, but do we really lose anything by moving away from it?

While I can't make much sense of this I have to admit it's a much more valid point than the first part of your message.

I agree

[Adsolution]

Akin to those who show no respect to locals by refusing to even attempt to speak their language you show no respect yourselves by judging their behavior through the prism of your Anglo-Saxon culture. It's like saying that Russians are idiots because they don't usually smile to strangers and even consider such a behavior suspicious, while in the UK every (female) cashier will call you love.

You'd probably get angry if a bunch of drunk Russians came to your countries and started arguments with any stranger smiling at them, and that's because you expect them to adapt to your culture when they come over. I can't see why it's so big of a deal to ask the same of you.

How do you attempt to speak a language you don't know? Throw an awkward "bonjour" at the beginning?

I'm not buying that comparison, because smiling, like many other aspects of human culture, have basic social implications which, while instinctually read a certain way, can vary slightly from culture to culture due to circumstance. This cultural requirement of the French on the other hand serves absolutely no purpose, socially, other than to be culturally arrogant. A distinct part of "Anglo-Saxon culture" is to be tolerant of other people's cultural mannerisms if they appear foreign, something which your culture seems to have chosen not to adopt, likely because you're chapped about losing your chance at world power.

Taking from personal experience, the sheer number of people who were intentionally rude or condescending to me in France was a ten fold higher than anywhere else in Western Europe I'd travelled to. It's not like they saw me as a threat, they were merely offended by the fact I didn't speak French very well - and I actually can speak French well enough to navigate, albeit not flawlessly. Canada (much more so than even the US) is such a cultural melting pot that you'll naturally consider that any person you walk up to on the street might not speak your language, whether asian or blonde, and if someone points out something stupid or non-pragmatic about a particular culture including my own, I certainly won't play Devil's advocate.

When referring to Anglo-Saxon culture specifically, I see less of an excuse for first-world non-Anglo-Saxons to plead ignorance, given that Anglo-Saxon media (lol) is widespread throughout most places in world. You yourself know exactly what you're doing every time you choose to ignore someone trying to communicate with you who doesn't speak any French: you are intentionally coming off rude in response to someone unintentionally coming off "rude".

[Hunchman801]

In America we [...]

In Canada we [...]

And in Europe we don't give a a shit. Stop thinking the way you do things at home any sort of relevance to foreign cultures, it simply doesn't.

But den why not just bring that up in the first place, regardless of whether anyone agrees with a norm everyone instantly gets that thing = disrespect if you provide the cultural context prior to explaining why you find it offensive. And even then it's like, if I was a Pierre living in Baguette and an Anglomerican comes up to me speaking English I would probably be able to pitch that they're just ignorant and don't realise what they're doing and not actually get angery with them. Should they know that stuff before going to a place? Yeah maybe, but it's totally possible they just glossed over that fact somehow and they don't mean any harm.

I never said anything about getting angry. I'm glad you have enough time on your hands to give every person on the street an in-depth explanation of why what they're doing is wrong, but I don't, nor do I feel like it's my responsibility to educate people. I thought everyone knew they'd get bad reactions in France by opening a conversation in a foreign language anyway?

So what Quoraman probably shoulda done then is go "well it's just a cultural thing, it's a sign of disrespect", that would've clearly answered what they were asking but instead he just got defensive without context. In fact, his response contradicts the idea that it's a cultural norm since he went and argued that if he'd try talking French over in Burgerland that people would get mad too, but you're saying that we're too narrowly thinking inside our Burgerminds to even realise someone would get offended by it, that don't add up!

I simply assumed you knew better about your own culture than I do, hence the mention of cultural differences. Whether you're representative of the reactions someone would get all over the country I don't know, but I just took your word for it. It's not like it changes anything to the core issue anyway.

How do you attempt to speak a language you don't know? Throw an awkward "bonjour" at the beginning?

“Bonjour, parlez-vous anglais ?” would be absolutely fine by me. It's like please and thank you, those words are useless in a sense yet good manners insist you use them. Be a good Ad, have good manners.

The rest of your messages is just talking about how you do things back home which I'm very happy to hear about but contributes nothing to the main problem here.

[Keane]

And in Europe we don't give a a shit. Stop thinking the way you do things at home any sort of relevance to foreign cultures, it simply doesn't.

If there's anything Europe definitely shouldn't adopt from Americans it's the desperate, exploitative clinging onto cultural dominance and dismissal of ideas not based on the idea itself, but purely on who it comes from. This is exactly the kind of thinking that leads to the partisan, hacky politics of Trump and Le Pen.

I never said anything about getting angry.

Ignoring someone because they didn't use your equivalent of please and thank you sounds pretty butthurt, Wario.

I'm glad you have enough time on your hands to give every person on the street an in-depth explanation of why what they're doing is wrong but I don't, nor do I feel like it's my responsibility to educate people.

If the implication here is "nigga I ain't reading and responding to that fucking book" then that's fine, but trying to insert this idea that it's somehow autistic to challenge people's thoughts - ehheh? If you don't want to take it on yourself to convince people of your ideas then you also can't expect anyone to adhere to them, your whole point is basically "This is how it is and no one is allowed to question it! END. OF. DISCUSSION!", how is anyone supposed to side with this?

I thought everyone knew they'd get bad reactions in France by opening a conversation in a foreign language anyway?

This discussion started with a link to someone asking about it because they didn't know.

The rest of your messages is just talking about how you do things back home which I'm very happy to hear about but contributes nothing to the main problem here.

You've rebutted literally nothing and opted for an edgy response to try and talk yourself out of having to justify anything you're saying. Jesus Christ dude, I wasn't even trying to strike a chord and just trying to have an interesting debate about norms and shit, I don't know why you're getting this flustered about it.

[Adsolution]

Stop thinking the way you do things at home any sort of relevance to foreign cultures, it simply doesn't.

Of course it does, we're comparing and contrasting ideas. With the way you're approaching the conversation right now, as long anything, no matter how ridiculous and extreme, is a part of a culture, then it's perfectly reasonable and not up for debate. If you're willing to think to yourself (and I'm sure you are) that the Middle East throwing gays off the roof for being gay is pretty much unconditionally stupid despite it being "culturally inappropriate/disrespectful" to be gay there, then it'd be hypocritical to not be open to receiving criticism directed back at your own culture.

It's perfectly reasonable to look back and say "yeah, why do we do that?". Not that I'm suggesting people stop saying please and thank you altogether, but maybe don't turn such a cold shoulder towards those who don't simply because they didn't, and teach your kids the same - maybe in time, the phrases will naturally lose their cultural requirement, as they were never really needed in the first place, and end up reserved for more genuine occasions. This is how society progressed from the dark ages to where it is today.

You yourself know exactly what you're doing every time you choose to ignore someone trying to communicate with you who doesn't speak any French: you are intentionally coming off rude in response to someone unintentionally coming off "rude".

This is completely true, and you are okay with being what is, by definition and regardless of culture, unreasonable and only aiding conflict for no reason other than to quite literally say "this is French culture, and this part of it is unreasonable, but fuck you". I think that's incredibly silly.

[Hunchman801]

Ignoring someone because they didn't use your equivalent of please and thank you sounds pretty butthurt, Wario.

It doesn't. It's more like shrugging at a rude person who didn't say please or thank you and walking away because you have other things to do than teach them manners.

You've rebutted literally nothing and opted for an edgy response to try and talk yourself out of having to justify anything you're saying. Jesus Christ dude, I wasn't even trying to strike a chord and just trying to have an interesting debate about norms and shit, I don't know why you're getting this flustered about it.

You're the only one getting flustered here. I have simply explained my arguments, most of which you have opposed with personal opinions and unrelated statements. That makes it a sterile debate, as we may as well be debating the use of please and thank you.

It's perfectly reasonable to look back and say "yeah, why do we do that?". Not that I'm suggesting people stop saying please and thank you altogether, but maybe don't turn such a cold shoulder towards those who don't simply because they didn't, and teach your kids the same - maybe in time, the phrases will naturally lose their cultural requirement, as they were never really needed in the first place, and end up reserved for more genuine occasions. This is how society progressed from the dark ages to where it is today.

This is actually how society went from the Belle Époque to the decadent world we live in now: the questioning of norms for the sake of questioning them and change for the sake of change.

This is completely true, and you are okay with being what is, by definition and regardless of culture, unreasonable and only aiding conflict for no reason other than to quite literally say "this is French culture, and this part of it is unreasonable, but fuck you". I think that's incredibly silly.

Thank you for sharing your personal opinion on the matter. I don't know if it's an exclusive part of French culture, as I've heard people from other countries say the same, but it's cultural nonetheless. Once again, if you're happy to teach people manners whenever they're rude, good for you. I just happen to have more important things to do.

[Adsolution]

It's more like shrugging at a rude person who didn't say please or thank you and walking away because you have other things to do than teach them manners.

There isn't much justification in shrugging them off if they're ignorant to the custom and clearly have positive intentions.

That makes it a sterile debate, as we may as well be debating the use of please and thank you. (...) This is actually how society went from the Belle Époque to the decadent world we live in now

You're creating an arbitrary threshold for what constitutes as necessary change. It only sounds stupid until it affects you directly - as much as I'm sure you'd love to make Europe "great" again, I don't think a gay person would feel the same way.

Thank you for sharing your personal opinion on the matter.

Which part of that was my personal opinion, the part about it being unproductive or the part about it being silly? Because the former almost universally implies the latter, and the former is not an opinion. If you think it is, please explain to me how what you just quoted isn't exactly what's happening: you ignoring their likely good intentions and being deliberately unhelpful.

[Keane]

This is actually how society went from the Belle Époque to the decadent world we live in now

Are you advocating for nationalism and imperialism?

the questioning of norms for the sake of questioning them and change for the sake of change.

No, I don't think that's true at all about current society. Millennials are dropping religion, accepting the LGBT community, over here in the US they're pushing to end the wars and fight for universal healthcare, these are all examples of young people questioning norms and making changes for good reasons.

Once again, if you're happy to teach people manners whenever they're rude, good for you. I just happen to have more important things to do.

Like criticising people for teaching manners whenever they're rude.

[Pirez]

Like criticising people for teaching manners whenever they're rude.

"But Hunch, if you have tim to telk with us now, surely you have tim to educate teh people on teh street". This sentence may have been written in a style that mimicked Keane's cancerous "memes-lol". Two completely different situations, but I'm glad you bring it up.

First off, let me say that I try my best to help people when they need help, although it only happens when I visit Paris and since I'm not Parisian I have to kindly tell them to ask somebody else because I have no goddamn clue how to help them. But it occurs to me that in the world of street harassment, triggerings and what not, if people go out of their way to ask unwarranted questions right on the street with no effort put into learning the basic language (which they had time to prepare for because they planned for the trip) and then getting pissed for a non-response when the person you asked may not even speak english, how are they not the ones attacking the safe space of the person they're asking the question.

And to move my point even further, if you don't bother preparing your trip with the most basic informations like basic sentences to speak with the locals or travel details (especially in the age of smartphones when the world can be accessible in your pocket), how is that not entitlement? You're going to tell me it's perfectly okay to put no effort in planning your trip, but when people want to put no effort into answering you then it's rude? That's disrespect in my book.

[Keane]

Like criticising people for teaching manners whenever they're rude.

"But Hunch, if you have tim to telk with us now, surely you have tim to educate teh people on teh street". This sentence may have been written in a style that mimicked Keane's cancerous "memes-lol". Two completely different situations, but I'm glad you bring it up.

Yah, no one but Hunch ever said anything about schooling people on "the street" you fucking niger, is raymanpc a street? What are you gay?

if people go out of their way to ask unwarranted questions right on the street with no effort put into learning the basic language (which they had time to prepare for because they planned for the trip) and then getting pissed for a non-response

My theory is that this "then they get pissed" boogeyman never actually happened and what's really going on is whenever Europeans spot tourists it turns on their "Pride and country! A foreigner treads on MY land!" senses, so when the person doesn't speak their language well and they give a confused look or something the homelander instantly interprets it as a war sign from the dirty outsider.