Unpopular opinions on Rayman

[Hunchman801]

And the feces-covered surfaces.

You just can't beat that.

The Sanctuary of Stone and Fire is easily the best level of the game, IMO. You can see how much they ran out of steam after it, and everything became rushed and linear.

I couldn't agree more! It deserves its own tier, and not the bottom one.

Wait The Precipice is an unpopular level? That's genuinely a surprise to me, it's one of my favourites due to the spectacle and premise.

While I've always found it to be a bit too generic, it's true that the epic music and the fast-paced action make it quite special. The Ninja Henchman at the end was nice, too.

Also hard disagree that SoSaF represents an endpoint for the game's energy. It's followed by what I feel are some of the most fun levels in the game, Echoing Caves has the more open-ended Switch segment followed by the barrel flying segments. Precipice, see above. Top of the World's flying chair (I'll admit it's finicky but I'd argue it's still a very unique and interesting level gimmick). Then capped off with Rock and Lava with the Super Helico and the Foutch boss (who I contend is probably the best guardian fight in the OG Rayman 2 - not saying much considering the fights in general are quite bland but still...)

I wouldn't go so far as to say that everything past the Sanctuary of Stone and Fire is uninteresting, but there is a sequence of visually similar levels which, despite some nice gameplay elements, felt less memorable to me due to not really having a visual identity and, let's say it, a soul. Of course, Beneath the Sanctuary of Rock and Lava isn't one of them, but if you consider the Echoing Caves, the Precipice and the Top of the World, pretty much any section from one of those levels could easily belong to one of the others.

Unpopular Opinion : Lotld Origins IS more beautiful than the R3 version

That's a beautiful opinion. RO's LOTLD certainly has a more colorful personality than R3's LOTLD!

Blasphemy! It's basically the same grey structures repeated over and over across the same grey sky as you endlessly run on the same grey slopes.

[dr_st]

That's a beautiful opinion. RO's LOTLD certainly has a more colorful personality than R3's LOTLD!

Blasphemy! It's basically the same grey structures repeated over and over across the same grey sky as you endlessly run on the same grey slopes.

But the dropping coffins! Can't beat those.

[PluMGMK]

What about all the colourdey lights in the background?

I'm with Hunch on this one. There is something so serene about that boat ride to the secret gem location in the Bog of Murk. The moonlight casting in the foggy sky is just so pretty.

Ah yes, I love that so much! Even the Hoodlum transport balloons in the distance seem serene with their lights dotting the sky. And the music:

[Master]

Wait The Precipice is an unpopular level? That's genuinely a surprise to me, it's one of my favourites due to the spectacle and premise.

While I've always found it to be a bit too generic, it's true that the epic music and the fast-paced action make it quite special. The Ninja Henchman at the end was nice, too.

I dunno, while I can see what you mean to an extent, I'd still argue the level has some unique set-pieces with the Tower in the flood and the gorge you helicopter down.

Also hard disagree that SoSaF represents an endpoint for the game's energy. It's followed by what I feel are some of the most fun levels in the game, Echoing Caves has the more open-ended Switch segment followed by the barrel flying segments. Precipice, see above. Top of the World's flying chair (I'll admit it's finicky but I'd argue it's still a very unique and interesting level gimmick). Then capped off with Rock and Lava with the Super Helico and the Foutch boss (who I contend is probably the best guardian fight in the OG Rayman 2 - not saying much considering the fights in general are quite bland but still...)

I wouldn't go so far as to say that everything past the Sanctuary of Stone and Fire is uninteresting, but there is a sequence of visually similar levels which, despite some nice gameplay elements, felt less memorable to me due to not really having a visual identity and, let's say it, a soul. Of course, Beneath the Sanctuary of Rock and Lava isn't one of them, but if you consider the Echoing Caves, the Precipice and the Top of the World, pretty much any section from one of those levels could easily belong to one of the others.

From an aesthetic standpoint I can see what you mean, but I strongly disagree that the levels lack an identity per se, each level has its own distinct set pieces and gimmick that set them apart. It's one of the reasons I complain about Revolution's level muddling, as the gimmicks end up being mushed together which reduces the distinction of each level.

Although...when I make that point, I can't deny that I'm also validating what you're saying, cause as much as I argue about set pieces, clearly the distinction wasn't enough that the levels couldn't be mushed up like they were in Revolution and still work.

[PluMGMK]

Although...when I make that point, I can't deny that I'm also validating what you're saying, cause as much as I argue about set pieces, clearly the distinction wasn't enough that the levels couldn't be mushed up like they were in Revolution and still work.

Ay, but there's the rub. Do they really still work? Really?

[Master]

In terms of feeling like complete levels I'd say yes, but in terms of having a cohesive identity...not so much. But the issue here is that I've played Rayman 2 so many times that I have a set idea as to what the levels *should* be like, as such I can't say for certain if they do work for someone who would be playing from a fresh perspective.

[Adsolution]

I wouldn't go so far as to say that everything past the Sanctuary of Stone and Fire is uninteresting, but there is a sequence of visually similar levels which, despite some nice gameplay elements, felt less memorable to me due to not really having a visual identity and, let's say it, a soul. Of course, Beneath the Sanctuary of Rock and Lava isn't one of them, but if you consider the Echoing Caves, the Precipice and the Top of the World, pretty much any section from one of those levels could easily belong to one of the others.

A big reason for that is probably because a lot of levels in the game were originally designed in completely different orders, they were a bunch of ideas, like "pirate fort", that got distributed among various levels throughout the runtime. Not every level is like this, but maybe half of them are. For example, after the section in the Fairy Glade where you climb the big tree, surf the slide and climb the piranha vines, when you hop down you're supposed to go into the first area of the Iron Mountains. In the Echoing Caves, when you drop down after walking through the door, you're supposed to come out where that part of the Fairy Glade continues, with the pirate throwing barrels from the ship and you go into the sewer.

(Not that that was supposed to be the "Echoing Caves", it's just how these sequences were designed initially before they found a place for them in the game and and defined individual levels)

So you can see how they had the most to choose from for the first half of the game, and the last half is more or less just whatever they had left over. The Iron Mountains is just a bunch of areas they didn't use earlier smashed into a level.

Mind you, none of that was directly confirmed by the developers, but it seems overhelmingly likely when you look at the game files.

[dr_st]

So you can see how they had the most to choose from for the first half of the game, and the last half is more or less just whatever they had left over. The Iron Mountains is just a bunch of areas they didn't use earlier smashed into a level.

It certainly feels like this. Anyone playing the game for the first time, would wonder for example - why does Rayman jump off the balloon? Well, it's because the balloon was just a deus ex machina to get from inside the mountain to a completely different and unrelated area.

If anything makes more sense in Revolution, it's the fact that the Pirate Mines were split into its own level.

[PluMGMK]

Yeah, even I realized when I was playing for the first time that the Iron Mountains felt like a clip show, and I wasn't sure how anything I was doing (especially the shell section) was actually getting me towards my goal

[Hunchman801]

From an aesthetic standpoint I can see what you mean, but I strongly disagree that the levels lack an identity per se, each level has its own distinct set pieces and gimmick that set them apart. It's one of the reasons I complain about Revolution's level muddling, as the gimmicks end up being mushed together which reduces the distinction of each level.

That's a fair point, but aren't those gimmicks mostly gameplay-related? The Top of the World is just a big pirate bastion like anywhere else in the game, the Echoing Caves looks like it could be the Fairy Glade, and that section with the rising water in the Precipice isn't so unique in that it feels very similar to the end of part 1 of the Iron Mountains, right before the hot air balloon.

Speaking of which, it's true that this level really feels like a patchwork of unrelated sections, but I guess Ad's explanation makes perfect sense in that context.

[Adsolution]

Yeah, even I realized when I was playing for the first time that the Iron Mountains felt like a clip show, and I wasn't sure how anything I was doing (especially the shell section) was actually getting me towards my goal

The level came off to me like a montage of Rayman going around saving all the globox kids, which he does in both the second and third areas. It kind of fits into that "action movie" design philosophy they said they had for R2, so I think it's kind of excusable in that sense.

It would've been so cool to see a version of Rayman 2 that was actually planned from beginning to end with appropriate theming and locations so you really feel the journey. I guess they also explained this away by the fact you really are just teleporting to a bunch of random areas throughout the world where the lums and cages were scattered. That was totally normal for 5th gen platformers though, it wasn't till the 6th gen platformers where worlds started feeling more cohesive and thoughtfully planned out.

[dr_st]

Once I learned that there was supposed to be a connection in the Hall of Doors between the Fairy Glade and the Echoing Caves, I got extremely disappointed with it being excluded from the final version. It just made so much sense, with the levels themselves being connected.

[Master]

From an aesthetic standpoint I can see what you mean, but I strongly disagree that the levels lack an identity per se, each level has its own distinct set pieces and gimmick that set them apart. It's one of the reasons I complain about Revolution's level muddling, as the gimmicks end up being mushed together which reduces the distinction of each level.

That's a fair point, but aren't those gimmicks mostly gameplay-related? The Top of the World is just a big pirate bastion like anywhere else in the game, the Echoing Caves looks like it could be the Fairy Glade, and that section with the rising water in the Precipice isn't so unique in that it feels very similar to the end of part 1 of the Iron Mountains, right before the hot air balloon.

Quite so, that was my concession, that you're right in saying from an aesthetic standpoint, the levels aren't anything different from the biomes and themes of prior levels, but they compensate for that in having their own unique gameplay elements which give them their identity. But Ad and yourself make a very good point in saying that doesn't necessarily mean that they were designed from the perspective of level gimmicks first and foremost. I suspect I need to do some reading on the background development and files there then xD

Once I learned that there was supposed to be a connection in the Hall of Doors between the Fairy Glade and the Echoing Caves, I got extremely disappointed with it being excluded from the final version. It just made so much sense, with the levels themselves being connected.

I did see Robin's video about there being an intended connection between Fairy Glade and Echoing Caves in the Hall of Doors a few years ago, but I hadn't even considered how thematically appropriate that would be considering the levels themselves being connected, and indeed that does make a hell of a lot of sense. The more ya know.

[DaveRattlehead]

A known person here tried to bridge the gap in game... I wonder if this "known person" has ever tried this again

Here's another unpopular opinion... I wouldn't say I hate it, but I'm a bit disappointed with The Prison Ship in Rayman 2. I like this level, but I don't know, I somehow expected this level to be harder, just like The Tower of Leptys in Rayman 3.

[PluMGMK]

Oh yeah, I remember that! I was moving the Purple Lums around with RayTwol, but only some of them were movable so I couldn't line up enough of them to make it work. Raymap doesn't have that issue so I could indeed try that again! Besides that, I did write a Linux port of the first-person mod in Rust (don't think I ever published it though ) which includes re-establishing the link in the Hall of Doors as a "bonus feature"

Prison Ship… It definitely wasn't what I was expecting indeed. I guess it's made up of two infiltration-type sections (sliding and flying) punctuated by one climactic combat setpiece (the Ninja Henchman with the boss music). I was willing to get on board with the flying shell but then I was disappointed when we didn't ride it straight into Razorbeard's Private Cabin

[metalflygon08]

Prison Ship should have been 2 levels.

The first one with you on foot freeing prisoners in massive amounts (flipping switches) and having them take ships and escaping as you go through doing as much damage as you can.

Have it end with Rayman having freed everyone and having a boss battle against the Servant Pirate in Razorbeard's cabin. Winning will cause the ship's energy core to become unstable.

Which would lead into the sliding section of the next level, with Rayman jumping out of the cabin and sliding away to find Razorbeard and Globox.

This would explain why the ship is in a terrible state as you start the sliding section. Rayman's been destabilizing the ship and it's starting to fall apart.

[dr_st]

This would explain why the ship is in a terrible state as you start the sliding section. Rayman's been destabilizing the ship and it's starting to fall apart.

Indeed this makes sense, but then you get to the core (the lava chamber and the subsequent shell flight), and it's surprisingly coherent and not shaky at all.

So the two sections should have been in reverse?

[metalflygon08]

Is it really stable though? Its full of broken debris too. It'd be more like a hurricane, where the "eye of the storm" is surprisingly calm despite all the destruction and chaos around it.

[DaveRattlehead]

I also wonder what caused the Prison Ship to be in that state. If I remember correctly, Polokus told Rayman that he was able to kill all the pirates on the ground, but he was "as vulnerable as a baby" in the air, and that's why Rayman had to go there and fight. So yeah, an initial section where Rayman destroys everything should make sense.

[Master]

That is a narrative point that never really seemed to be explained. Granted it's fairly dramatic and cool from a visual standpoint, but the lack of reasoning behind the Prison Ship seemingly falling apart as your traverse is indeed strange.

Going to that cutscene with Polokus beforehand, maybe when he said he was going to give Rayman "maximum energy," he imbued Rayman with some sort of natural force that destabilised the Prison Ship as he navigated through it? It is rather convenient how many things seem to break just as Rayman passes through...