Religion – your views

[Greengoop]

Also it is what the universe we live is built on

[Adsolution]

Also it is what the universe we live is built on

the earth chose to orbit the sun??

[Greengoop]

Yep

[Adsolution]

that makes me happy my computer chose to be my side all these years. i love you, brave compie

[Ambidextroid]

The question of free will gets people knotted up in such a silly place. Free will seems to be us just experiencing the thoughts and emotions that lead us down a certain path. A lot of people have trouble reconciling the idea that feelings can be predetermined too and instead take it as their feelings being invalidated

I don't actually subscribe to determinism, but I don't accept that free will is compatible with a deterministic or non-deterministic worldview. I believe our experience of the world is not dissimilar to watching someone on telly. We have no control, all we can do is observe.

[Adsolution]

I don't actually subscribe to determinism, but I don't accept that free will is compatible with a deterministic or non-deterministic worldview. I believe our experience of the world is not dissimilar to watching someone on telly. We have no control, all we can do is observe.

I subscribe to it just because I can't think of a reason it wouldn't be the case. And yeah, my usage of "free will" there is semantic.

[Ambidextroid]

I subscribe to it just because I can't think of a reason it wouldn't be the case. And yeah, my usage of "free will" there is semantic.

Because of quantum effects there are non-deterministic events such as the exact moment an atom decays, which cannot be determined in advance, hence the whole shrodingers cat thing. But either way, whether our futures can or cannot be predicted, it has no bearing on our ability to make decisions.

Being able to control your own decisions

Our brains and bodies are made up of atoms that just follow the rules. Your brain is just a bundle of neurons reacting to stimuli. If you isolated one single neuron, it couldnt make a decision - neurons are basically just wires at the end of the day. If you had 10 neurons linked together, they still wouldn't be able to make a decision, they would just react to their environment automatically like a series of wires or switches. So if your brain is just a big network of neurons, at what level of complexity does this inexplicable ability to make decisions come from? Could it not be that we just really feel like we are making decisions, when really it is just an illusion? Because that's what physics tells us is the case.

[Adsolution]

I subscribe to it just because I can't think of a reason it wouldn't be the case. And yeah, my usage of "free will" there is semantic.

Because of quantum effects there are non-deterministic events such as the exact moment an atom decays, which cannot be determined in advance

I figured you'd bring those things up, to which my response is that just because it can't be determined in advance doesn't mean it wouldn't have happened again exactly as it did, when it did, if time were to repeat under the same conditions.

I just think it's likely that there are factors that we don't take into account that do impact those things, we just haven't even discovered them yet, and for all we know may never be able to.

[Ambidextroid]

I figured you'd bring those things up, to which my response is that just because it can't be determined in advance doesn't mean it wouldn't have happened again exactly as it did, when it did, if time were to repeat under the same conditions.

I just think it's likely that there are a lot of factors that we don't take into account that do impact those things, we just haven't even discovered them yet, and for all we know may never be able to.

Well there is a big debate in physics regarding the implications of random events like particle decay, the Copenhagen gang says it is random and that's it, while the many-worlds gang say every possibility happens at once. But either way the underlying maths is identical and suggests that it isn't just a case of "maybe it is just deterministic and we're missing something". As you say we can never really know, but I would say the scientific consensus suggests that non-determinism is a thing nevertheless. And I don't see why not. What makes you think determinism is more likely?

[Adsolution]

I figured you'd bring those things up, to which my response is that just because it can't be determined in advance doesn't mean it wouldn't have happened again exactly as it did, when it did, if time were to repeat under the same conditions.

I just think it's likely that there are a lot of factors that we don't take into account that do impact those things, we just haven't even discovered them yet, and for all we know may never be able to.

Well there is a big debate in physics regarding the implications of random events like particle decay, the Copenhagen gang says it is random and that's it, while the many-worlds gang say every possibility happens at once. But either way the underlying maths is identical and suggests that it isn't just a case of "maybe it is just deterministic and we're missing something". As you say we can never really know, but I would say the scientific consensus suggests that non-determinism is a thing nevertheless. And I don't see why not. What makes you think determinism is more likely?

Literally just because true randomness doesn't sit right with me. It's a harmless thought though, it's not like I'm going to claim the math is wrong, I use it in my own simulations, it's the best we have, and that's all science ever strives for.

I'd probably sit more with the many-worlds gang out of the two though, it makes the concept of superpositions more fun.

[Ambidextroid]

Literally just because true randomness doesn't sit right with me. It's a harmless thought though, it's not like I'm going to claim the math is wrong, I use it in my own simulations, it's the best we have, and that's all science ever strives for.

I'd probably sit more with the many-worlds gang out of the two though, it makes the concept of superpositions more fun.

I suppose it does. But the idea that free will doesn't exist doesn't sit right with me, especially the implications it has regarding our justice and prison system and generally the way we act to other people in our day to day lives. But I still believe it, because I won't let my personal feelings or instincts influence my beliefs if the science says what it says.

[Adsolution]

I suppose it does. But the idea that free will doesn't exist doesn't sit right with me, especially the implications it has regarding our justice and prison system and generally the way we act to other people in our day to day lives. But I still believe it, because I won't let my personal feelings or instincts influence my beliefs if the science says what it says.

It's not really a strong belief of mine, it's kind of this childlike fascination with the idea of there being trans-dimensional forces we haven't discovered yet and quantisation. A bunch of gobbledygook, but it keeps me writing weird ambient music

[Greengoop]

The only correct religion is gedagadigedagadaoism

[lyndo64]

The only correct religion is gedagadigedagadaoism

words of wisdom from gedagadigedagadaoi nugget

[Greengoop]

You know my child, I was married a long time ago

[Hunchman801]

Literally just because true randomness doesn't sit right with me.

That's basically Einstein saying that "God does not play dice".

Anyway, Ambi has a pretty good point about the validity of the concept of moral responsibility in a universe where the laws of physics are deterministic. And even if they're not in the sense that there is an element of randomness, there is still no room for free will in this worldview. Maybe you could argue that it is a higher-level concept where we do indeed take decisions, but as part of the laws of the universe taking effect? That's mostly semantics at this point.

One thing's for sure though, those thoughts lead us to a rather nihilist worldview...

[dr_st]

If physics is deterministic to the point that there is no free choice, and everything has been predetermined, then the concepts of moral responsibility, crime and punishment, have also been predetermined, so there is nothing to complain about.

[Ambidextroid]

If physics is deterministic to the point that there is no free choice, and everything has been predetermined, then the concepts of moral responsibility, crime and punishment, have also been predetermined, so there is nothing to complain about.

The idea that we don't have free will makes it very difficult to talk about the implications, we could just say "there's no free will so I'm gonna do whatever I want without moral retribution" but that obviously won't stop you being persecuted. Unless everyone in the world accepted that point of view, in which case persecution might not exist. But then we would be living in a pretty terrible world. Instead, if we "pretend" that we have free will, because for all intents and purposes it seems like we do, then we get the society we have now. But if we don't even have a choice in the matter, seeing as free will doesn't exist, then why even bother pretending, if our future is (practically) predetermined, or at least unchangeable by human will.

So then, if we "choose" to pretend that free will exists and keep our systems of justice and morals, we aren't really choosing it at all. The fact that we don't want to live in a world without morals has basically predetermined the fact that we will continue to live in a world with morals. "Deciding" to do whatever you want because everything is predetermined is also not deciding at all. That's some freaky shit.

[PluMGMK]

A lot of the "burning for eternity" stuff has been taken so literally by institutions, probably for money, when to me personally it seems like it's supposed to be more of a metaphor for just not "being with God". Being sentenced to excruciating physical pain for eternity for seems very at-odds with the core message of the faith as a whole. It shouldn't be something you fear, rather almost more of a choice.

QFT… When I hear "eternal torment", I think of it as meaning the realization that you "could" have been with God if you'd made some different decisions, but now you're stuck outside…

(Sorry, I'm still catching up on this discussion )

[Adsolution]

One thing's for sure though, those thoughts lead us to a rather nihilist worldview...

The idea that we don't have free will makes it very difficult to talk about the implications, we could just say "there's no free will so I'm gonna do whatever I want without moral retribution" but that obviously won't stop you being persecuted. Unless everyone in the world accepted that point of view, in which case persecution might not exist. But then we would be living in a pretty terrible world. Instead, if we "pretend" that we have free will, because for all intents and purposes it seems like we do, then we get the society we have now. But if we don't even have a choice in the matter, seeing as free will doesn't exist, then why even bother pretending, if our future is (practically) predetermined, or at least unchangeable by human will.

I don't feel it implies anything, personally (or I've just reconciled those thoughts long ago). Whether or not choices are predetermined is superfluous. These things we feel feel real. Endorphins feel great. It's not like they just stop existing whenever I think about something existential, so of course I'm not going to let it affect the way I function.