Any official source saying R1 and RO magician are the same?

[Hunchman801]

I also think that your theory is the one that's the most consistent with the following lines of cut dialogue:

Oh! The bad guy! It's the magician!

The magician, Mr. Dark, Teensy Whoever!...He's getting away!

But of course, we'll probably never know for sure as it was all scrapped in favor of a dumb dance sequence.

[WPTheModder]

I wish the cut content wasn't... well... cut. It was amazing and fills in a lot of weird moments and inconsistencies. When I first played origins I was confused on what this cutscene meant (the dance cutscene) since all it revealed was just The Magician taking off his little star. I admit I liked the dance cutscene though lol

And then... I played some of the other Rayman games and was like "Oh.. he's just pretending to be the magician... okay, what?" Origins doesn't do too well in terms of the story. It's defined as a prequel to R1 but It feels like it takes place after around R3/R2 where the gang is all together... it's weird.

[ArcaneDarkling]

I also think that your theory is the one that's the most consistent with the following lines of cut dialogue:

Oh! The bad guy! It's the magician!

The magician, Mr. Dark, Teensy Whoever!...He's getting away!

I also agree, it's what I was trying to imply in my info dump

I wish the cut content wasn't... well... cut. It was amazing and fills in a lot of weird moments and inconsistencies. When I first played origins I was confused on what this cutscene meant (the dance cutscene) since all it revealed was just The Magician taking off his little star.

I would also like it if it wasn't cut, I get they were trying to prioritize gameplay and there was also a lack of time... but it would've been pretty fun IMO (I know some people here heavily disagree though).

I admit I liked the dance cutscene though lol

I keep jokingly saying the dance cutscene is the best moment in gaming, but I wouldn't have minded the lore dump, as forced as it would've looked from a story-telling perspective in this context.

It's defined as a prequel to R1 but It feels like it takes place after around R3/R2 where the gang is all together... it's weird.

Yeah, it's very confusing since it was meant to be a prequel, but then development shenanigans ensued, and they just changed it to a sequel. They thought "Origins" still made sense since it was 2D like Rayman 1, even though other than the return of some redesigned faces from Rayman 1, there is barely anything in common between them. Which is why Rayman and Globox look a bit... insane, since they were supposed to be inexperienced and dumb before becoming heroes, but I guess they were too lazy to remake sprites and say goodbye to the silliness.

I find it pretty ironic that lore-wise Origins was meant to be the bridge to make up for the inconsistencies Rayman 2 brought to the franchise in contrast to Rayman 1, but in the end made everything more confusing, scrapped plot after scrapped plot...

[WPTheModder]

I keep jokingly saying the dance cutscene is the best moment in gaming, but I wouldn't have minded the lore dump, as forced as it would've looked from a story-telling perspective in this context.

I like it purely for the music and just the funny dances (I don't have a good sense of humor...) but, yeah. The lore dump would've been better.

I do also think if they had the OG magician back, to perhaps introduce us to the game, instead of the snoring tree sequence (even though it is BEAUTIFUL), it would've clicked into the gamer's perspective as "Ohhh, this guy is good! Yeah, alright, let's do whatever he says!" and then the buildup to the end would've make sense even WITHOUT dialogue.

Yeah, it's very confusing since it was meant to be a prequel, but then development shenanigans ensued, and they just changed it to a sequel. They thought "Origins" still made sense since it was 2D like Rayman 1, even though other than the return of some redesigned faces from Rayman 1, there is barely anything in common between them. Which is why Rayman and Globox look a bit... insane, since they were supposed to be inexperienced and dumb before becoming heroes, but I guess they were too lazy to remake sprites and say goodbye to the silliness.... I find it pretty ironic that lore-wise Origins was meant to be the bridge to make up for the inconsistencies Rayman 2 brought to the franchise in contrast to Rayman 1, but in the end made everything more confusing, scrapped plot after scrapped plot...

This is very well-said.. a sequel makes no sense, since.. they didn't introduce us to Ly, or why Betilla now has all of these sisters, or... why Betilla now looks like this... or, or, why did we go to beautiful landscapes, and crazy worlds into slavery and robot pirates in R2??? And now, who are these king guys and where did they come from? And- Why is there these orange globox looking fellows? Where's Uglette and Globox's millions of kids? WHO IS BIG MAMA? WHY DOES SHE TURN INTO A NYMPH!?!?!?..... I'm going off on a tangent, but Origins when you really think about it, has more questions than answers.

[Hunchman801]

I find it pretty ironic that lore-wise Origins was meant to be the bridge to make up for the inconsistencies Rayman 2 brought to the franchise in contrast to Rayman 1, but in the end made everything more confusing, scrapped plot after scrapped plot...

That's a pretty good point, I don't mind so much that they gave up on the idea, but doing the exact opposite is something else now!

[Greengoop]

Maybe they just wanted to prove to literally everybody that the game had changed?

[boomboleros7]

OK, last big lore subject I had to comment.
Months after everyone, but better late than never.

Reading this thread was VERY interesting, I would like to thanks everyone who took time to react.

Now, what do I think of this?

I think the key of the history was indeed in the early script from Rayman Origins, as ArcaneDarkling explained:

When the heroes find Ales, Murfy exclaims “The Bad Guy, it's the Magician!” however after he removes the star from his hat, Murfy corrects himself to “No! It's Mr. Dark!” Ales plays along and soon pulls the lever, leading us into boss fights. However, when we return and take him by surprise, his hat falls off and Murfy says: “Oh! The bad guy! It's a Teensy!”

If you add these scrapped lines to the cinematics in The Reveal level, they are sooooo much clearer.


Like a lot of you, I'm so angry devs remove them from final version.
AND replace them by a stupid dance sequence.

So, in the end, Origins antagonist is just... a nobody?
A guy with disguise talent who impersonate an ally from previous games?
So... he's like the Impersonator of Death in the first Yu-Gi-Oh! anime? (remember this guy?)

I agree with the fact he's called the Magician in Origins manual is a way to fool players, whatever they know Rayman 1 or not, so they can be surprised by The Reveal level.
Movies, videogames and others already did various tricks with their trailers, manuals and other ways to hide important revelations.

Call him "the Dark Teensie" like Michel Ancel and Legends antagonists, who are his nightmarish clones, is OK. We can also consider his real name Ales Mansay revealed by the script.
On RayWiki, I'm OK with keeping "The Magician (Rayman Origins)". It's his fake name, but it's how he's called in Origins manual, which is more valuable than an Instagram post and element from the sequel game.
Plus, we aren't sure "Ales Mansay" is still his real name in current Glade of Dreams lore, as it doesn't appear in Origins final version.

According to the lead writer Gabrielle Shrager, he is an “usurper” (I guess she meant “impersonator”) of Mr. Dark, which is also consistent with the script, in which he confirms he is a big fan of Mr. Dark and even plays along when Murfy assumes he is.

One last remark: when asked by RaySpola whether "the magician [was] the real Mr Dark or [...] trying to imitate him", Gabrielle Shrager replied that "he's a Teensy usurper". Could that also refer to the Origins Magician impersonating the one from Rayman 1, and not just Mr Dark, who she goes on to say he is a huge fan of? This interaction lacks context and is highly subject to interpretation.

You did very well talking about Gabrielle Shrager Facebook post.

It has been considered as a confirmation of Origins antagonist identity, but if you look closely the question and the answer, Gabrielle DIDN'T CONFIRM the character is the Magician from Rayman 1! Quote has been overinterpreted!

Also, I'd like to point out that Tarayzan was meant to be playable as a Rayman skin, and Polokus had dialogue that referenced Rayman 1. Plus, Electoons and Stone People remain limbless. So his design wouldn't have needed to be changed in such a drastic way.

This.

And if we add the (way too many) characters from Rayman species we meet in Legends and Adventures, I think the "Raypeople Purge started by Origins" is clearly not a thing.

Keep in mind that Rayman Origins is a reboot from the series

Officially, Origins has never been presented as a reboot in trailers, interviews, etc...

And even so, it's not a reboot, since it clearly takes into account events of previous games.

Hey, people in this thread reminded Origins was going to have way more references to previous games during development, with Tarayzan, Uglette, the Teensie who looked like a Robo-Pirate, etc...

You can consider Origins as a soft reboot, however, even if the term hasn't been used officially.

Personally, I don't think Rayman is the kind of series where a reboot can be interesting. Main games follow their course, you publish spin offs once in a while, sometimes alternate timelines like The Legend of Spyro, but no need to reboot the main story.

It's very rare to see reboots in old platforms series.
I mean, Sonic storyline is still going on, same for Ratchet and Clank, Crash Bandicoot and many others.

While the edutainment games mention the Magician being a handyman, there's not as much emphasis as with Ales.

Well, educational games said R1 Magician can fix machines very easily, and I found it funny it was also the case for RO Magician , which I thought were the same character back then.

But, like for the Livingstones who like to disguise, chances Origins devs used educational games as an inspiration for a canon game are unfortunately very low.

The question remains… In that case, what did happen to the real Magician?

Well, it depends what kind of abductor is Ales...

Do you think he would knock out, tie and imprison the Magician until his plan is complete...

... or kill the Magician, and maybe get rid of his body, to be sure he doesn't escape or he isn't found by someone else?

how could the heroes not notice that it's a Teensie with gray hair, and not blond member of Rayman's species, when it's so obvious to the player?

I may have a theory for this.

We know Ales gathers the Lums collected by Rayman and his friends for his factories hidden in the Moody Clouds.

But are we sure what's how he proceed in game lore?


Sometimes, a scene in a videogame doesn't occur from characters point of view because it would be way more "videogame-ish", it would break the 4th wall.
See what I mean?
For example, when there is a world map in a videogame, we know characters don't travel like this in "real life" (their real life, which doesn't exist technically but you see what I mean).
When where is a shop in a videogame, we know purchases aren't made as we see them, characters don't see the tables with names, skills, etc...

Ales collects the Lums, right, but maybe he doesn't do it in this weird empty place in the nether with a giant test tube, while showing his Teensie face to his enemies.
What is this place, anyway?!
This mise en scène is very useful for the player(s) to show how many Lums have been collected in a level, but not for the Glade of Dreams heroes.

I concede however this setup clearly ruins the (in)famous reveal of The... Reveal level, because if players who don't know R1 Magician don't see any problem, the others immediately think "Wait, who is this guy?!".

Well, maybe it's like in some games, movies, series and others, where the audience is aware of something which will be learned later by the characters...

I never said it was a good idea, I try to explain!

he simply refers to him as "Ales Mansay", the teensy that sucked at magic

I remember Origins script said Ales planned to destroy all magic in the Glade of Dreams because he wasn't a good magician...

It's... pretty stupid for a Mr. Dark fan to have this kind of idea, don't you think?

Mr. Dark is a wizard. He would kill Ales in the instant if he learned what he tried to do, or if Ales had the chance to meet him before or after his success, to tell him something like: "Oh my, Mr. Dark!! I'm your biggest fan!! Oh, do you know I plan to destroy/I destroyed the thing you use(d) to work?! I'm a genius, aren't I?! Are you proud of me?! "

[PluMGMK]

I concede however this setup clearly ruins the (in)famous reveal of The... Reveal level, because if players who don't know R1 Magician don't see any problem, the others immediately think "Wait, who is this guy?!".

Well, maybe it's like in some games, movies, series and others, where the audience is aware of something which will be learned later by the characters...

It's called "Dramatic Irony"… Perhaps the devs were inspired by the controversy around the Alanis Morissette song and decided to go one better by completely scrambling and hence neutering the drama of this kind of irony – how ironic!

Thanks for the analysis, you've given me a lot to ruminate over…

[Hunchman801]

I may have a theory for this.

We know Ales gathers the Lums collected by Rayman and his friends for his factories hidden in the Moody Clouds.

But are we sure what's how he proceed in game lore?
https://raymanpc.com/wiki/images/1/19/Magician1.JPG

Sometimes, a scene in a videogame doesn't occur from characters point of view because it would be way more "videogame-ish", it would break the 4th wall.
See what I mean?
For example, when there is a world map in a videogame, we know characters don't travel like this in "real life" (their real life, which doesn't exist technically but you see what I mean).
When where is a shop in a videogame, we know purchases aren't made as we see them, characters don't see the tables with names, skills, etc...

Ales collects the Lums, right, but maybe he doesn't do it in this weird empty place in the nether with a giant test tube, while showing his Teensie face to his enemies.
What is this place, anyway?!
This mise en scène is very useful for the player(s) to show how many Lums have been collected in a level, but not for the Glade of Dreams heroes.

I concede however this setup clearly ruins the (in)famous reveal of The... Reveal level, because if players who don't know R1 Magician don't see any problem, the others immediately think "Wait, who is this guy?!".

Well, maybe it's like in some games, movies, series and others, where the audience is aware of something which will be learned later by the characters...

I never said it was a good idea, I try to explain!

Yes, it's probably just that. A bad idea indeed.

[PluMGMK]

As it happens, I'm now in a pub hearing the aforementioned song in the background And I forgot to post this earlier:

[Tribelle2026]

I wish Michel Ancel did an AMA, I have so many questions about the inconsistencies in the Rayman series.

[Hunchman801]

I wish Michel Ancel did an AMA, I have so many questions about the inconsistencies in the Rayman series.

Well, it almost happened but the event eventually lost traction on the Ubisoft side, for reasons unknown. Who knows, maybe we'll be able to revive this idea one day?

[Greengoop]

Knowing Ancel, his reply to this question would be “are you fucking stupid?”

[Hugo]

Lol have to agree with Goop there. If he didn't say it, he'd probably think it

[Master]

I mean we've seen how much deference (or lack thereof) they've given the consistency of lore in the series. It's only us sad nerds who really care.

[Tribelle2026]

What do you think of the theory that Andrew (the magician's cousin from English with Rayman) is actually Mr Dark?

[Hunchman801]

Sounds pretty random to me, especially when you consider that the cousin can also be a Frenchman called Pierre, a German called Hans or a Spaniard whose name I don't know depending on the language the player is learning (there is, in fact, no such thing as "English with Rayman", but various editions with different "source" and "target" languages). Even if you consider those games canon, they will inevitably conflict with each other on this.

[boomboleros7]

I thought about something concerning Origins Magician...

Polokus says in Legends intro while Rayman and friends were sleeping (for one century... ), his Nightmares multiplied, and among creatures on screen, we see our “dear” Teensie Magician.

What if... Origins Magician wasn’t a Glade of Dreams inhabitant who decided to betray the others, but a Nightmare of Polokus since the beginning?

A nightmarish Teensie who convinced Rayman and the other heroes he’s friendly (by impersonating the Magician from the first Rayman game, maybe after imprisoning or killing the real one), to easily steal their Lums and create robots in Moody Clouds factories.

Maybe this behavior seems too clever and thoughtful for a Nightmare, but I think Rayman games show us Nightmares of Polokus can be dangerous from different manners.
Sure, a lot of them are savage beasts who attack on sight like Rayman 2 caterpillars and Psychlops, but others are more “intelligent”, “civilized”, like Livingstones who live in Medieval Mayhem castles or Toads who literally owns an underwater base with lasers and robots factories. We can even mention Jano, he can lead a conversation, and he tried to trick Rayman with his treasure.

Sure, it’s not logical at all with this plot in Origins script where the antagonist says Polokus is responsible for Nightmares attack and planned to overthrow him with his robots (a very interesting plot, by the way), but maybe devs completely changed their mind.

Unless “Ales Mansay” is a Nightmare who, like the others, hate his creator and Glade inhabitants, but also his own kind.
But what would be way too exquisite for a Rayman game plot...

And hey, if Origins Magician is a Nightmare since the beginning, what would justify why he works with Livingstones and Hunters, and used Nightmares and Glade inhabitants turned into monsters by the Nightmares as models to create Mecha Carnivora and the other Moody Clouds robots.

Legends and Michel Ancel on Instagram called Origins Magician and his clones “Dark Teensie”...
Do we have a species name here?
Considering a lot of enemies in UbiArt games who have “dark” in their name are Nightmares of Polokus, like Darktoons, Darkblockers and Olympus Maximus Dark Creatures, that would make sense...

Speaking of the Magician clones, we assumed the Dark Teensie we see in Legends intro is a nightmarish reproduction born from a bad dream of Polokus after Origins events (an interesting interpretation implying the Bubble Dreamer has been traumatized and questioning himself), but if Origins Magician was already a Nightmare, maybe the one who splits in five was just another Nightmare from the same species, another Dark Teensie.

Or it’s the same Magician as in Origins, who survived when his industrial city has been obliterated. Somehow.
Yeah, I know Rayman and friends managed to escape, but we can assume since they were behind the flying ship and on mosquitoes, they had enough time to pull themselves away from the explosion.

Please, don’t mention the fact Rayman gang survived a terrible fall after the destruction of Moody Clouds factories.
We can have a long talk on why Rayman (the hero who can use his hair as a helicopter) can survive when he falls from Leptys astral plan and Moody Clouds, but not when he falls in Precipice and Iron Mountains ravines.

[Hunchman801]

I think it would actually make sense that he's a nightmare, maybe one day the devs will expand on this!

[Greengoop]

I always thought there was one real dark teensy and four nightmarish clones