The Awesome and Cool Poll Thread - Poll #131: Would you pay more taxes if it meant receiving a pension when you retire?

[Greengoop]

Yeah, I just thought that could be a nice joke option to not get picked.

[PluMGMK]

Including booby options is always a good idea indeed!

[The Jonster]

My only question to that option is, is there anyone here who has been on video games nonstop?

[Greengoop]

Potentially EdgeRabbit?

[Hunchman801]

I believe in meritocracy for the most part, at least here in France.

Sure, life is never completely fair. Students born in educated families will get better help at home than those whose parents barely even speak French. Growing up without being distracted by financial worries is certainly a plus too. And those from affluent, well-connected families might find it easier to navigate the job market thanks to those connections.

But overall, nothing really prevents anyone from pursuing valuable higher education. The most prestigious engineering schools in the country are free (some even pay you to study). So are the classes that prepare you for them. Benefits, grants and scholarships are available for those whose parents cannot support them financially during their studies.

Sure, if you decide to go to university and study sociology or anthropology, you're gonna have a hard time finding a job, let alone one that pays well. But everybody knows the studies that lead to high-paying jobs. It's on you if you deliberately choose another path.

As for the professional environment itself... Yes, you'll find plenty of places with incompetent idiots in high positions. In many companies, things are stuck and there's no way you'll rise through the ranks. But then again nobody is forcing you to stay. It's a whole world out there, and places where your merits and achievements will be recognized do exist. You'll inevitably encounter the same incompetent idiots again, though maybe to a lesser extent, but do not focus on those. Focus on yourself and how to navigate around them.

I understand not everyone looks forward to living that kind of life. Some would prefer to live off something they're passionate about. There's probably more value in comparatively underpaid research work than in most corporate jobs. Maybe society does not always reward what it should reward. But the game is not rigged, and its rules are no secret. It's just a matter of whether you want to play it or not.

[Pirez]

Maybe society does not always reward what it should reward. But the game is not rigged

So you're saying that perhaps society rewards fields of society that maybe do not "merit" them? Because if so, the game is totally rigged.

[EdgyRabbid]

Why was this chosen as a topic again?

[dr_st]

Why was this chosen as a topic again?

I think because Dave wanted it.

[EdgyRabbid]

Most of us are unemployed though?

[Pirez]

[Hunchman801]

So you're saying that perhaps society rewards fields of society that maybe do not "merit" them? Because if so, the game is totally rigged.

I understand "the game is totally rigged" as "some people will always be on the losing end no matter what", which I mostly disagree with as explained above. It's just a metaphor though, so maybe you understand it differently?

You mention "merit", so I assume you're making the point that the people who work to be successful in today's society are not, well, deserving, because they pursue goals that are unworthy in themselves? I can understand that. I just did not go that far in my understanding of the word "meritocracy", in which I simply see "merit" as academic success and strong performance in carrying out one's duties at work. Choose another definition and you might get another answer!

[EdgyRabbid]

I mean out of most recently active membres, most of them are under 18 and presurmly un employed.

Employed members: Preize, Hunch, Plum

unemployed members: GreenGoop, me, WP, that guy from china i cant remeber the name of.

unknown: Mage.

[Magelin]

I think you minimised here, i don’t remember a lot of employed members, but there are definitely more of them out there
I live in a lone tower, and i have magic powers, so i don’t need your jobs or whatever you call them! …Jokes aside, i actually want to work, but my parents don’t want me to

[Pirez]

You mention "merit", so I assume you're making the point that the people who work to be successful in today's society are not, well, deserving, because they pursue goals that are unworthy in themselves? I can understand that. I just did not go that far in my understanding of the word "meritocracy", in which I simply see "merit" as academic success and strong performance in carrying out one's duties at work. Choose another definition and you might get another answer!

I wouldn't equate merit and academic success if we're being perfectly honest. It's a well known fact that with money you can get in the best universities in the world if you have money and connections. Bush went to Yale, Trump went to Wharton, I wouldn't state with certainty that their intellectual prowesses would have landed it their place on their own. It has also been established that you, yourself, was more likely to achieve higher education if your parents had one themselves, which is logical : intelligent (and therefore wealthy due to "merit") parents have more base and time to pass down to their children as opposed to working family's children. There is possibility to be extracted from it, but the hassle is not the same. So if meritocracy is a thing, it is still unequal for everybody.

Also grants do not cover the whole cost of living for students. Come on...

What I also would have liked to touch in my oh-so-lovable clumsy way of finding words is that some fields can be put in the priority by getting government funding. The example I had was tax-free kerosine for planes which makes air travel more affordable than trains. Is aviation more "worthy" to exist than rail, even though is it actively way more dreadful for the planet? (See also : SpaceX which even before the Trump administration was funneling massive amount of government funding to an alarming result rate of exploding rocketships)

But in the bigger picture, what is worthy of "merit" anyway? As you said, some fields pay better than the others and the rules are set... Except in your definition they're worth more because they need extra special prowesses to be done. They require the best individuals. Recognizing merit could alternatively be measured in the people who best keep society cohesive during hard times, like nurses and doctors have been clamoring for decades, but especially during Covid.

[dr_st]

I will just bring up two unrelated things that were said to me by different people at different points in time, as well as my own conclusions from them.

By one of our high-school teachers: "Life is not easy, but for those who are willing to put effort, life is good".
From this I deduced the understanding that although I cannot expect life to be "fair" and yes, there will always be people, more lucky in various ways, my own choices will have great effect on what I can achieve. I cannot level the playing field, but in any given situation, I would be better off taking responsibility for my life than sitting on my butt and expecting things to come to me, or whining that life is unfair.

By a distant relative: "There are predators and there are prey, and this is true about humans just as it is about animals".
Similarly to the previous one, one can take it as a personal advice to try to be the predator and not the prey. I viewed it as a general observation about the nature of the world. Some people like to talk about how the current "system" is broken and unfair and should be abolished and replaced with a "better" one. However, most likely, in any system you can come up with, there will be people who will "rig" it and take advantage of it, and there will be those that are "left behind" - the predators and the prey, if you will. It will not necessarily be the same people in all systems, but the different "roles" will exist nonetheless. A completely fair and just system is a fallacy, and so most of the time it is better to try to improve things by small steps, rather than revolutions.

[Hunchman801]

I wouldn't equate merit and academic success if we're being perfectly honest. It's a well known fact that with money you can get in the best universities in the world if you have money and connections. Bush went to Yale, Trump went to Wharton, I wouldn't state with certainty that their intellectual prowesses would have landed it their place on their own. It has also been established that you, yourself, was more likely to achieve higher education if your parents had one themselves, which is logical : intelligent (and therefore wealthy due to "merit") parents have more base and time to pass down to their children as opposed to working family's children. There is possibility to be extracted from it, but the hassle is not the same. So if meritocracy is a thing, it is still unequal for everybody.

I was talking about the French system, where money and connections will do nothing to get you into most top schools. I do not know enough about the American system to have an informed opinion about it.

As for extraction, yeah, I acknowledged that in my first reply. But my overall argument still stands, I believe.

Also grants do not cover the whole cost of living for students. Come on...

Not for everyone, that's true, but a quick search shows that someone on the highest level of CROUS scholarship could be getting something like €750 a month if you factor in the APL (housing allowance), which should be enough in smaller towns, especially with CROUS restaurants offering meals for €1 for scholarship holders. Even in the Paris region, some top schools offer cheap onsite housing. Some even pay you, like I said.

Sure, some people will be limited in their options if family can't help, or they'll have to take loans or work on the side which is likely to distract them from their studies. But overall the country has a robust system of financial aid for students.

What I also would have liked to touch in my oh-so-lovable clumsy way of finding words is that some fields can be put in the priority by getting government funding. The example I had was tax-free kerosine for planes which makes air travel more affordable than trains. Is aviation more "worthy" to exist than rail, even though is it actively way more dreadful for the planet? (See also : SpaceX which even before the Trump administration was funneling massive amount of government funding to an alarming result rate of exploding rocketships)

Yeah, I believe kerosene is exempted from TICPE and benefits from a reduced 10% VAT, right? No doubt it's significant. At €1 per litre (from what I could read), and with a TICPE of €0.15 (same), this means it would increase by 25% (((1+0.15)*1.2)/(1*1.1)) if TICPE and regular VAT were applied. But the last time I went to Toulouse, train tickets were twice as expensive as plane tickets (and the trip three times longer). No doubt an equal treatment is needed, but train prices in France are also ridiculously high, in no small part because of terribly inefficient operations. My brother "worked" at SNCF (national train company) for a couple years. I put the word "worked" inside quotes, because he'd rather say he was employed there, given how little actual work he ended up doing there. He even left because of that.

But in the bigger picture, what is worthy of "merit" anyway? As you said, some fields pay better than the others and the rules are set... Except in your definition they're worth more because they need extra special prowesses to be done. They require the best individuals. Recognizing merit could alternatively be measured in the people who best keep society cohesive during hard times, like nurses and doctors have been clamoring for decades, but especially during Covid.

It's not my definition of "merit", it's my understanding of the word "meritocracy". When asking themselves whether to promote me at work, my bosses don't care if I made the world a better place. They care how well I performed according to the company's criteria. Again, a different different will yield a different answer!

By one of our high-school teachers: "Life is not easy, but for those who are willing to put effort, life is good".
From this I deduced the understanding that although I cannot expect life to be "fair" and yes, there will always be people, more lucky in various ways, my own choices will have great effect on what I can achieve. I cannot level the playing field, but in any given situation, I would be better off taking responsibility for my life than sitting on my butt and expecting things to come to me, or whining that life is unfair.

Yeah, this one resonates well with me. There's a lot you can't change, but a lot more you can. That's if you're willing to.

[PluMGMK]

Employed members: Preize, Hunch, Plum

Guess you missed that part where I lost my job, eh?

unemployed members: GreenGoop, me, WP, that guy from china i cant remeber the name of.

I don't think you guys meet the definition of "unemployed" since (as you mentioned) you are under 18 and in full-time education. As far as I know, "unemployed" specifically refers to a member of the workforce (i.e. an adult below retirement age, not in full-time education) who doesn't currently have a job. Like me right now (although I'm becoming a PhD student in a couple of weeks )

Sorry for the nitpicking everyone

[Pirez]

We forgive you because you are unemployed and therefore have nothing better to do with your life.

[Greengoop]

I’m gonna do volunteer work in a cafe for DofE starting in September, does that count as a job?

[Pirez]

It counts as working but it doesn't count as a job, since you don't get paid.

That slight paradox is the backbone of France's associative system, btw.