Religion – your views

[Tobbe]

Look who says that.

I do. And unlike you, I try as hard as possible to back up my claims and arguments with facts and evidence. While you, using only your own observations have concluded that out of all the babies conceived in Poland, 15% of them are conceived while their mothers are intoxicated in some way. I'm sorry, but the numbers you make up without doing any research whatsoever won't convince anyone.

Secondly, the thing you quoted is never, I repeat, NEVER intentional in world of animals - and if you trust macroevolution (I know you do), you believe human is just like animal in this case, and for some reason this doesn't appear in cases it could save mother's life.

You once again demonstrate your lack of knowledge. Firstly: Of course miscarriages aren't intentional, who said they were. If you'd read the wikipedia page I sent you, you would have seen that miscarriages mostly happen when there's something wrong with the fetus. This is obviously beneficient from an evolutionary standpoint. Secondly: Stop using the terms 'microevolution' and 'macroevolution'. Those terms haven't been used by real scientists for nearly 80 years. Today they're only used by creationists like Kent Hovind and Ken Ham (two of the biggest morons on the planet). And thirdly: Humans are animals. We have evolved from the first reproductive molecules just like every other animal on this planet, and we shared our last common ancestor with the chimpanzees a few million years ago.

[Matyuv]

I believe that if a woman decides to do abortion (which isn't murder of course), she surely has her reasons and there's nothing wrong with that... It's up to her. I mean, decisions like that aren't simple to make anyway, of course you'd take your time to think about it, get consultations from the doctors, family etc.

[stan423321]

I'm sorry, but the numbers you make up without doing any research whatsoever won't convince anyone.
/.../
Secondly: Stop using the terms 'microevolution' and 'macroevolution'. Those terms haven't been used by real scientists for nearly 80 years.

I never said I'm a scienctist. Including fake, false, semi and real scienctist. And that's why I'm not doing any research without a good reason (I have no money for this, and official statistics lie). I simply see what's happening there. And I seriously don't get your point with your last post - if embryo isn't working, it "falls down" itself, right? So if it's working, it doesn't beg to us to make her/him falling, right?

And thirdly: Humans are animals. We have evolved from the first reproductive molecules just like every other animal on this planet, and we shared our last common ancestor with the chimpanzees a few million years ago.

I simpy wasn't sure do you think so, so I didn't write it this way.

I believe that if a woman decides to do abortion (which isn't murder of course), she surely has her reasons and there's nothing wrong with that... It's up to her. I mean, decisions like that aren't simple to make anyway, of course you'd take your time to think about it, get consultations from the doctors, family etc.

Now, that's the point I can discuss with. I don't agree with Matyuv that abortion isn't wrong, but he don't abuse me because he finds my post pointless... so I'm not gonna abuse him. In case of his opinion, I think all the school student girls in some part of UK can (maybe could) get abortion pills for free anytime. No time for consultation or whatever.

[Matyuv]

In case of his opinion, I think all the school student girls in some part of UK can (maybe could) get abortion pills for free anytime. No time for consultation or whatever.

Yes, but I meant the time before one actually makes the final decision.
I mean, if she wants to abort, she probably has some very good reasons to do that, there are many situations in which one would want to make an abortion (such as rape etc) and in most cases it's the better thing to do.

[stan423321]

OK. But I remember an article (could be from gossip magazine, so not sure), where a girl which was automatically sent for those pills when her pregnancy was detected was the topic. Dunno is it true, but I think it could.

[Hunchman801]

If all women who became pregnant as a result of consuming alcohol had abortions, the earth's population would be decreasing rapidly...

It's totally insignificant.

Just because the mother was drunk when the child was conceived doesn't mean it will have nobody to look after it. Nor does it indicate a "shitty life".

If the child is not wanted, it's usually because the parents can't or don't want to take care of them. Do you really think it's reasonable to bring up a child in such conditions? If you got drunk, had sex with your girlfriend and realised she is pregnant, would you want to keep the child at your age?

We have an uncontrollably increasing population... it's more likely to stabalise it (although I see it unlikely to take much effect at all). Ergo aborting a child would actually be a plus, on that rather peculiar note.

You're completely wrong here: the world's population is expected to stabilise by 2300, or even sooner.

[Matyuv]

OK. But I remember an article (could be from gossip magazine, so not sure), where a girl which was automatically sent for those pills when her pregnancy was detected was the topic. Dunno is it true, but I think it could.

Automatically sent? What'd that mean? Did a doctor tell her to do that or was she just taken there by force or sth?
I wouldn't trust a gossip magazine anyway, I wouldn't trust press fully at all actually.

[blacklumbob]

i dont mind religion, i am neither hindered nor phased by it. there shouldnt be ARGUMENTS about it, just let people get on with their beliefs like they want too.
however im not fond of religions that say man is superior. thats just sexism.

[stan423321]

Just because the mother was drunk when the child was conceived doesn't mean it will have nobody to look after it. Nor does it indicate a "shitty life".

If the child is not wanted, it's usually because the parents can't or don't want to take care of them. Do you really think it's reasonable to bring up a child in such conditions? If you got drunk, had sex with your girlfriend and realised she is pregnant, would you want to keep the child at your age?

I would. (15.) But this obviously would depend on girl, though - if she would be T+13 (personality type) which would rape me (I've heard it's possible) and asking for my help notoriously, I wouldn't help for purpose.

OK. But I remember an article (could be from gossip magazine, so not sure), where a girl which was automatically sent for those pills when her pregnancy was detected was the topic. Dunno is it true, but I think it could.

Automatically sent? What'd that mean? Did a doctor tell her to do that or was she just taken there by force or sth?
I wouldn't trust a gossip magazine anyway, I wouldn't trust press fully at all actually.

So I don't post full description here with dramatic dialogs etc.. She detected she hadn't got period for long time, she said her teacher about that, teacher took her to school doctor (good we have no one in our school) and doctor said her to swallow some pills. Sources are not sure did she know what were they for.

[Matyuv]

Well, that's just rumours.

...good we have no one in our school...

How the hell is that a good thing?

[stan423321]

Well, anytime I had a closet-running-sickness in my first school I was prompted to go to the school doctor. Now, I am prompted to go to the toilet, which I prefer for obvious reasons.

[Tobbe]

And I seriously don't get your point with your last post - if embryo isn't working, it "falls down" itself, right? So if it's working, it doesn't beg to us to make her/him falling, right?

No, but nobody's ever claimed they did either. You simply asked for a mechanism by which abortions ocurr naturally, and I provided it for you.
Okay, evolution has supplied us with an amazing brain that allows to think rationally and to some degree override our primitive instincts, which tell us that we should make lots of babies to ensure the survival of the human race. Here are some rational reasons that support "artificial" abortion:

1) To benefit the parents: The parents might not want a baby, or are not financially capable of raising a baby at the time the pregnancy ocurres. The mother might not want to go through a hard pregnancy with a potentially dangerous birth (deaths during childbirth are very rare in the most developed countries, but they do occur).
2) There's something wrong with the fetus: If there's something wrong with the fetus abortion might be the best alternative both for the fetus and the parents. Let's say there's a high risk that a child will be born with a severe mental or physical incapability, like Down's syndrome. Raising such a child is extremely hard for the parents (trust me, I know people who have a kid with Down's), so abortion is definately justifiable in cases like that.
3) For the sake of humanity!: With overpopulation being a real problem in the World, abortion of unplanned pregancies are somewhat justifiable. It's not the best way to handle overpopulation (condoms in Africa and such help much more), but every little bit helps. Parents who already have what they consider to be enough children could also consider abortion of unplanned pregnancies.

There are probably more, but I'm too tired to think clearly atm.

And, stan: Abuse? I merely point out your obvious mistakes when you say something flabbergastingly stupid. Learn how to handle criticism.

[blacklumbob]

toilets.


anyway. why is there a topic about this? people should be left alone to wallow in their own insane views on stupid things like god and jesus.

[Tobbe]

Shut up, bob. We should at least attempt to promote rational thinking, although some people are buried so deep in religious dogma (see Shawn's sig) that there's little hope of convincing them to think through their superstitions.

[blacklumbob]

fine by me.

[Xenon]

Surely, the option to abort is down to the parents. It should have nothing to do with what's 'morally right' or 'justified'; if a mother feels she cannot provide appropriate care for the child then what the hell is the problem with aborting it? This is surely a statement of common sense and not mere opinion. I simply cannot comprehend why some people in this topic disapprove of the idea - there's essentially nothing positive about raising a child in an uncared for unprepared for harsh environment... I'm surprised arguments have actually arisen from this.

i dont mind religion, i am neither hindered nor phased by it. there shouldnt be ARGUMENTS about it, just let people get on with their beliefs like they want too.

anyway. why is there a topic about this? people should be left alone to wallow in their own insane views on stupid things like god and jesus.

Will you please leave if you have nothing decent to add?

You're completely wrong here: the world's population is expected to stabilise by 2300, or even sooner.

I guess that's dependent on human management now. But even if the world's population does alleviate, or even decrease, that's surely a good thing.

[Tobbe]

Surely, the option to abort is down to the parents. It should have nothing to do with what's 'morally right' or 'justified'; if a mother feels she cannot provide appropriate care for the child then what the hell is the problem with aborting it?

My point exactly.

If abortion is murder, the following is true:



I know there are several good arguments against this, for instance that sperm don't contain all the information to create a human, but it's funnier this way.

[stan423321]

I guess that's dependent on human management now. But even if the world's population does alleviate, or even decrease, that's surely a good thing.

Hm.

If we wouldn't find a way to colonise Sahara/center of Earth/other planets, you're right there...

In case of Tobbe's example of Africa, I'm sorry, but as far as I know, people there are... thinking another way than you and me. Going married at the age of 9 for female and 14 for male (married! not fianced or whatever is it called!)and making almost everybody breeding (indicate that every male HAS TO have a wife in most of these cultures) are primary reasons of these people having lots of children. Elimination of these could cause a major decceleration of increasing population. As far as I know.

And isn't this picture an ad of... you know what?

[Tobbe]

There are several good reasons for the tribal Africans to act this way, but I'm too busy watching football to list them right now.

[stan423321]

I don't say they have no reasons for that, I simply indicate this is main reason of growing population of Africa.
EDIT: Griowring?