What would be your worst nightmare?

[Jewish Candy]

But remember, all governments are evil. Muhahahahahaaaa.

If you think about it on a purely rational scale, the eradication of religion, childbirth and death would be the end of what makes humans feel pain - it's our interpretation and way of dealing with pain that makes us different from each other (I don't think that's the only reason, but from a sceptical view...) so individualism would disappear along with these pains.
A government that could successfully introduce immortality without ending up with WW3 or the like would have to be global. The entire human population, made infertile and immortal... I don't think a vote would come into it, really. People are self serving, and those at the top tend to be more so. No faith, no new people to deal with - absolute power, basically.

This is so deep. And I am such a conspiracy theorist. But I have my reasons, y'know.

[Xenon]

That's quite a philosophical approach but I think it would be laughed out of discussion in a serious political debate about the matter. There are several fundamental problems with eradicating religion, death and childbirth, which I'm sure you can figure out. These reasons are why I believe such a medical practice would never be legally accepted.

In my opinion, society should embrace change by welcoming future generations to our culture. And I think this sort of change makes our country great!

[spiraldoor]

Um, yes they would. If you're immortal, you can't die. Simple as.

Sorry - I'm convicted of an afterlife. Though I understand totally why others don't.
What you say about the potential of eternal life is certainly feasible, and the unlimited artistic possibilities that come with immortality also appeal to me - but I don't trust human awesomeness enough to see that happening. Great people with incredible skills could so easily lose their way, the good could become corrupt, etc... although immortality would give them the opportunity to turn back around again, what might their wrong-footedness already have done to others, to the rest of the world? I'm assuming people still have emotions in your conception of immortality. And, of course, think of all the dictators and power-hungry people out there today. Imagine them living forever. They are human, they could easily join the 'light side' at some point, but their terror-wreaking would no doubt leave an even larger mark on people. Without death to threaten people, what other, more horrifying methods of torture could they come up with?

I think you’re misunderstanding what I mean when I talk about ‘immortality’. I’m not talking about some magical method that will make it literally impossible to die; I’m talking about the eradication of natural causes of death (ageing, disease, etc) through purely scientific methods. In this world, people would still die from accidents and things like murder and suicide. If someone really wanted to kill themselves, they wouldn’t have much trouble.

I think another huge issue for me is that it would basically render any value in life as null. There would be nothing to compare it to, seeing as death had been beaten. In my opinion art and all its associated concepts are drawn from this human awareness of these two parallels, life and death. I would say that this struggle is where human hope originated, perhaps even human love. The feeling that there is something or someone you can strive for, you can protect... I know that love and hope are some of the most beautiful, overwhelming feelings I've ever had. I understand that for you, perhaps the idea that death is all that results in the end demotivates you rather than gives hope. But if we were all to live forever, there would be no need for our hope, dare I say it, no love - they're only ways for us to cling onto things that might disappear one day. I'd hate to live in a world where we'd be deprived of such anguish, and at the same time, such beauty. *Goes all poetic and grabs some shish*

That’s an interesting point of view, though I can’t say I share it. I really think life would continue as normal, more or less. I don’t believe love would stop existing or anything like that. We would still have goals to strive for, but they would be much bigger ones, and we’d have all the time in the world to achieve them.

May I ask what you perceive as greatness?

In this context, it means making a great contribution to society or doing something that brings happiness to many people.

My point was that no government would use it, but rather refer to it as a massive advance in technological development. Even if a vote was cast to make this medication available, I still think the majority would vote against it. I for one wouldn't want eternal life. Perhaps a few more decades, but not eternal life. Immortality would remove the exclusiveness of life, not to mention batter the conventions and faith of religious groups. It's just not something any government would consent, in my opinion, despite the incredible opportunities it could offer.

No government would use it? At all? Come on. I’m sure that at least one dictator would take a fancy to having an army of immortal soldiers, and from there it would only be a matter of time until other countries were forced to make use of the technology. What do you think governments would actually do with it? Just ‘refer’ to it as a great advance and not use it for anything?

What if there was a political party in your country that wanted to introduce the immortality treatment and make it available to the public? Don’t you think they would stand a good chance of getting elected? And don’t you think that there are enough people who want eternal life for such a party to be formed?

I would certainly like to have the ‘exclusiveness’ of my life removed if it meant that I could live forever. I really don’t think we should allow the beliefs and conventions of religious groups to stand in the way of technological advancement. Just because you don’t want eternal life, you would vote against it so that nobody could have it? You could always just take the treatment, then kill yourself after a century or two. I really don’t think anyone would force immortality down our throats and then lock us in padded cells so we don’t do damage to ourselves.

[Jewish Candy]

I think you’re misunderstanding what I mean when I talk about ‘immortality’. I’m not talking about some magical method that will make it literally impossible to die; I’m talking about the eradication of natural causes of death (ageing, disease, etc) through purely scientific methods. In this world, people would still die from accidents and things like murder and suicide. If someone really wanted to kill themselves, they wouldn’t have much trouble.

Ah, ok. I was under that impression. I still disagree though.

I would certainly like to have the ‘exclusiveness’ of my life removed if it meant that I could live forever. I really don’t think we should allow the beliefs and conventions of religious groups to stand in the way of technological advancement.

The problem here is that the majority of people in the world do have a faith of some kind - not just organised things like Christianity or Islam, but animistic religions too. The vast majority of these tend to be opposed to the concept of human immortality; although I expect a lot of people support a world without pain, I'm not sure how many of them would be ok with no death (that sounds a bit strange, but if earlier comments are anything to go by...) So if standing in the way of technology 'shouldn't be allowed', as you put it, who's enforcing that? It makes me think of some kind of 1984, Brave New World style government made up of a select few.

Just because you don’t want eternal life, you would vote against it so that nobody could have it? You could always just take the treatment, then kill yourself after a century or two. I really don’t think anyone would force immortality down our throats and then lock us in padded cells so we don’t do damage to ourselves.

I think a lot of people who don't like the idea of eternal life have a moral basis for this view - in which case, voting against it so nobody could have it would be like 'saving' other humans from immortality in their eyes. You could argue how judgemental or holier-than-thou that attitude is, but the truth is it's how a lot of people think. And I personally do think that, even with the immortality you propose (which is simply eradicating ageing and disease), whoever is in charge would prefer everyone to have the treatment and then keep them from damaging themselves. Having to plan for deaths and diseases is a hassle, and I don't think anyone with power would want to have to deal with that after a cure for those things had been found.

This is a bit off topic (actually, I'd say this who 'immortality' thing is too!), but what do you think of communism, Spiral? I dunno, some of your comments seem to lean a bit that way, and it'd be interesting to know your views. Gawd, don't kill me if you're anti...

[Danone]

I see that only talks about death, I will need change the title of Post

[Jewish Candy]

Aw, sorry Danon...

[Danone]

Aw, sorry Danon...

nop,I think this conversation is more interesting

[spiraldoor]

The problem here is that the majority of people in the world do have a faith of some kind - not just organised things like Christianity or Islam, but animistic religions too. The vast majority of these tend to be opposed to the concept of human immortality; although I expect a lot of people support a world without pain, I'm not sure how many of them would be ok with no death (that sounds a bit strange, but if earlier comments are anything to go by...) So if standing in the way of technology 'shouldn't be allowed', as you put it, who's enforcing that? It makes me think of some kind of 1984, Brave New World style government made up of a select few.

I think that, if the technology to stave off death indefinitely is developed, no one should have any right to stand in its way. That’s like banning blood transfusions because they offend the beliefs of Jehovah’s Witnesses. It’s just wrong. Nobody is entitled to force their beliefs on others like that.

I think a lot of people who don't like the idea of eternal life have a moral basis for this view - in which case, voting against it so nobody could have it would be like 'saving' other humans from immortality in their eyes. You could argue how judgemental or holier-than-thou that attitude is, but the truth is it's how a lot of people think. And I personally do think that, even with the immortality you propose (which is simply eradicating ageing and disease), whoever is in charge would prefer everyone to have the treatment and then keep them from damaging themselves. Having to plan for deaths and diseases is a hassle, and I don't think anyone with power would want to have to deal with that after a cure for those things had been found.

I think the real reason many people would be opposed to the idea of eternal life is that we’ve been conditioned to believe that ageing and death are perfectly natural and acceptable things, rather than the destructive and undesirable forces which they really are. We’ve all been born into a society where death is considered to be inevitable, and this makes us much less interested in curing it than we should be. We need to (I hate this phrase) ‘open our minds’ to the idea that death is actually a very bad thing which it is imperative to stop.

I don’t know about you, but the idea of a government which doesn’t allow people to die doesn’t really bother me. Even if, as you postulate, they would force us to stay alive simply out of the convenience of not having to plan for death, there would still be nothing to stop us from ending our own lives, unless they could somehow pre-empt suicide and lock us up in a padded cell literally for all eternity.

Observation: You think that the governments would force everyone to take the immortality treatment, and Xenon thinks that the governments would ban the immortality treatment outright. Interesting.

This is a bit off topic (actually, I'd say this who 'immortality' thing is too!), but what do you think of communism, Spiral? I dunno, some of your comments seem to lean a bit that way, and it'd be interesting to know your views. Gawd, don't kill me if you're anti...

Which posts gave you that impression? I’m the single most anti-communistic member here. Check out the political compass thread. And you might as well take the test yourself and post the results there, too. By the way, I’m actually even further to the right than the graph indicates. The third (most recent) time I took the test, it put me so far to the right that I actually chose not to post the results.

[Jewish Candy]

I think that, if the technology to stave off death indefinitely is developed, no one should have any right to stand in its way. That’s like banning blood transfusions because they offend the beliefs of Jehovah’s Witnesses. It’s just wrong. Nobody is entitled to force their beliefs on others like that.

But that's exactly it. The majority of people, for whatever reason, are not huge fans of eradicating death - to remove from them the right to stand in its way is somewhat dictator-like, no? As you said, no one should force their beliefs on others like that .

However, we go onto your next point:

I think the real reason many people would be opposed to the idea of eternal life is that we’ve been conditioned to believe that ageing and death are perfectly natural and acceptable things, rather than the destructive and undesirable forces which they really are. We’ve all been born into a society where death is considered to be inevitable, and this makes us much less interested in curing it than we should be. We need to (I hate this phrase) ‘open our minds’ to the idea that death is actually a very bad thing which it is imperative to stop.

That's an interesting point, but one I really don't agree with. Why is death bad, or destructive? For me at least, death is not only a good thing (keeping our numbers in line, to say the least!) but also rather healing. It's a conclusion, a wrapping up of what someone has done in their life. We have become accustomed to death as a means of dealing with the pain of loss that comes with it, and through getting through this pain, I think we come out the other side as better, more balanced people. Loss is something that everyone, I guess even immortals, must experience. Death is the ultimate form of this - if we can deal with it, we can deal with anything. (And out comes the pipe again...) Surely once we can accept death, we can learn to love the beauty that's left behind in its wake - the memories that might otherwise fade away, the lasting legacies of the departed, etc. Why should it be imperative to stop? Why should this thing which, in its own way, helps the human race to develop its emotions and coping strategies - as well as all the biological benefits - be something antagonistic? I suppose I see death as a liberation from all the toils and issues we must face in this world, like recuperation, rather than a terrible destructive force which ends all that we hold dear. You could argue I've been conditioned to believe this - it's not so much a conditioning as a coping mechanism, and one which I value so much to the point of not wanting it to disappear.

I don’t know about you, but the idea of a government which doesn’t allow people to die doesn’t really bother me.

It bothers me hugely, to say the least. I hate government control - not to the extent that I'd burn up the HoP, but I definitely don't like the snooping, especially on my family. They're like mosquitoes. *shudder*

Which posts gave you that impression? I’m the single most anti-communistic member here. Check out the political compass thread. And you might as well take the test yourself and post the results there, too. By the way, I’m actually even further to the right than the graph indicates. The third (most recent) time I took the test, it put me so far to the right that I actually chose not to post the results.

Oooh, really? Well, the political spectrum is practically a circle, so perhaps your apparent 'far-rightedness' makes you seem rather 'far-left'. I took that test and, perhaps unsurprisingly, I'm economically somewhat communist and slightly anarchistic too. Ah, if the world was run by me, who knows what kid of shish-inspired shit everyone would be up to, eh? I expected to be more libertarian though.

[spiraldoor]

But that's exactly it. The majority of people, for whatever reason, are not huge fans of eradicating death - to remove from them the right to stand in its way is somewhat dictator-like, no? As you said, no one should force their beliefs on others like that .

I don’t really care if they try to stand in the technology’s way, as long as they don’t try to stop me from taking advantage of it. It would be dictatorial to ram the technology down someone’s throat, but it would be just as bad to lobby against the allowance of the technology in the first place. It should be available for those that wish to avail of it.

That's an interesting point, but one I really don't agree with. Why is death bad, or destructive? For me at least, death is not only a good thing (keeping our numbers in line, to say the least!) but also rather healing. It's a conclusion, a wrapping up of what someone has done in their life. We have become accustomed to death as a means of dealing with the pain of loss that comes with it, and through getting through this pain, I think we come out the other side as better, more balanced people. Loss is something that everyone, I guess even immortals, must experience. Death is the ultimate form of this - if we can deal with it, we can deal with anything. (And out comes the pipe again...) Surely once we can accept death, we can learn to love the beauty that's left behind in its wake - the memories that might otherwise fade away, the lasting legacies of the departed, etc. Why should it be imperative to stop? Why should this thing which, in its own way, helps the human race to develop its emotions and coping strategies - as well as all the biological benefits - be something antagonistic? I suppose I see death as a liberation from all the toils and issues we must face in this world, like recuperation, rather than a terrible destructive force which ends all that we hold dear. You could argue I've been conditioned to believe this - it's not so much a conditioning as a coping mechanism, and one which I value so much to the point of not wanting it to disappear.

Have you ever seen The Matrix? Your attitude reminds me of the people who are unwilling to be freed from the system. To quote Morpheus:

The Matrix is a system, Neo. That system is our enemy. But when you're inside, you look around. What do you see? Business people, teachers, lawyers, carpenters. The very minds of the people we are trying to save. But until we do, these people are still a part of that system, and that makes them our enemy. You have to understand, most of these people are not ready to be unplugged. And many of them are so inert, so hopelessly dependent on the system, that they will fight to protect it.

I think that pretty much sums up how I feel about this.

[Jewish Candy]

Have you ever seen The Matrix? Your attitude reminds me of the people who are unwilling to be freed from the system. To quote Morpheus:

The Matrix is a system, Neo. That system is our enemy. But when you're inside, you look around. What do you see? Business people, teachers, lawyers, carpenters. The very minds of the people we are trying to save. But until we do, these people are still a part of that system, and that makes them our enemy. You have to understand, most of these people are not ready to be unplugged. And many of them are so inert, so hopelessly dependent on the system, that they will fight to protect it.

I think that pretty much sums up how I feel about this.

Hmm, I see where you're coming from now. But the thing with the Matrix is, it IS artificial. It's like a dream, in a way... But death isn't an artificial thing. From a purely material viewpoint, the decay of cells, of atoms etc., is ongoing and has been around for however long you believe the universe has existed. I guess for me, trying to live forever is like wishing to stay WITHIN the Matrix, trying to stay within the slavery, the bondage *teehee* of human life. Death is the equivalent of the red pill (or is it the blue one? Haven't seen the movie in ages) and it is a truth that must be faced by everyone eventually - humanity's way of refusing it has been all this life enhancement, these medicines. No, I don't think medicines are evil at all, before anyone comes to that conclusion! Just like in the Matrix, there's a justification, and a very worthy one at that.

As the movie implies, it's hard living a life outside the Matrix. It's hard coping with the conclusive and current inevitability of death, for all of us. That's why so many would do anything to stay within the 'system', the system of the Matrix and the system of life, by striving to keep on going - as you say, they're "so hopelessly dependent... they will fight to protect it". But because death is so natural in this world, there's not a huge amount we can do about it (for now) and loads of people have come to terms with it. I suppose believing in an afterlife makes all the difference to how you see this... Hehehee, we'll never come to any agreement. But that's the joy of spaghetti!

It's quite fun picturing you as Morpheus. Except I dunno what you look like, so it's just... Morpheus, actually. Awesome sauce, man.

[spiraldoor]

Hmm, I see where you're coming from now. But the thing with the Matrix is, it IS artificial. It's like a dream, in a way... But death isn't an artificial thing. From a purely material viewpoint, the decay of cells, of atoms etc., is ongoing and has been around for however long you believe the universe has existed. I guess for me, trying to live forever is like wishing to stay WITHIN the Matrix, trying to stay within the slavery, the bondage *teehee* of human life. Death is the equivalent of the red pill (or is it the blue one? Haven't seen the movie in ages) and it is a truth that must be faced by everyone eventually - humanity's way of refusing it has been all this life enhancement, these medicines. No, I don't think medicines are evil at all, before anyone comes to that conclusion! Just like in the Matrix, there's a justification, and a very worthy one at that.

As the movie implies, it's hard living a life outside the Matrix. It's hard coping with the conclusive and current inevitability of death, for all of us. That's why so many would do anything to stay within the 'system', the system of the Matrix and the system of life, by striving to keep on going - as you say, they're "so hopelessly dependent... they will fight to protect it". But because death is so natural in this world, there's not a huge amount we can do about it (for now) and loads of people have come to terms with it. I suppose believing in an afterlife makes all the difference to how you see this... Hehehee, we'll never come to any agreement. But that's the joy of spaghetti!

I see it the other way around – the world we are born into (the system of life followed by inevitable death) is like the Matrix: we’ve spent our entire lives in it, we have nothing to compare it to, and we simply accept it as it is. The red pill is the equivalent of the immortality treatment. You take it, you are freed from the system, and eventually you will come to realise that your life has been little more than a prison compared to the ‘outside’. There are people like me, who want the, I don’t know, pharmaceutical pill-developing companies to hurry up and create some red pills for us so we can get out of the system before we die, and there are people like you, who would choose the blue pill, which is the equivalent of surrender to the system, followed by death. The machines that created the Matrix are the equivalent of God, if you believe in that sort of thing. And the religious groups that would oppose the development of the red pills are broadly similar to the Agents, who are part of the system and will do whatever is within their power to stop people from escaping it. These opposing Matrix analogies are a ridiculous, come to think of it.

I don’t think there’s much point in living if you’re just going to die eventually and lose everything you’ve done. It’s (poor analogy alert) a bit like writing a novel, then burning it rather than publishing it. Except it’s much worse, because it’s your entire existence rather than just a book, and it’s oblivion rather than a fire (end of poor analogy).

It's quite fun picturing you as Morpheus. Except I dunno what you look like, so it's just... Morpheus, actually. Awesome sauce, man.

I look like the opposite of Morpheus.

[Jewish Candy]

I see it the other way around – the world we are born into (the system of life followed by inevitable death) is like the Matrix: we’ve spent our entire lives in it, we have nothing to compare it to, and we simply accept it as it is. The red pill is the equivalent of the immortality treatment. You take it, you are freed from the system, and eventually you will come to realise that your life has been little more than a prison compared to the ‘outside’. There are people like me, who want the, I don’t know, pharmaceutical pill-developing companies to hurry up and create some red pills for us so we can get out of the system before we die, and there are people like you, who would choose the blue pill, which is the equivalent of surrender to the system, followed by death. The machines that created the Matrix are the equivalent of God, if you believe in that sort of thing. And the religious groups that would oppose the development of the red pills are broadly similar to the Agents, who are part of the system and will do whatever is within their power to stop people from escaping it. These opposing Matrix analogies are a ridiculous, come to think of it.

Yeah, just a bit - if we both get completely different things out of the same movie. Although I can't agree with you, I definitely see what you're saying, so perhaps they aren't the worst analogies. We just have completely different ways of seeing the world, and I don't think we'll ever come round to each other's point of view. It's pretty amazing how we've transformed this topic into a discussion about the nature of life and death...

I don’t think there’s much point in living if you’re just going to die eventually and lose everything you’ve done. It’s (poor analogy alert) a bit like writing a novel, then burning it rather than publishing it. Except it’s much worse, because it’s your entire existence rather than just a book, and it’s oblivion rather than a fire (end of poor analogy).

Heh, I can think of worse 'uns, don't worry - although true artists burn absolutely everything . But how would you lose everything you've done? I think that's what I struggle with most, your feeling that your entire life is just a waste in the end. What about all the stuff you do? The friends you meet, the babies you make , everything you bring to the world? Even just having a discussion like this is worth something. It's not everyday (well, it is now ) that I get to talk to someone who thinks so deeply about issues like this, and it's really quite enlightening. Even after you die, even if it means YOU as a conscious being dissolve into nothingness, all those memories are left, aren't they? The people who have known you, your children, all the various thingamajigs you've helped to make (sorry, I don't really know your interests or aspirations!) - they go on as a testament to you. Perhaps you're not aware of it once dead, but others are. Nothing's lost, whether there's an afterlife or not. Hell, I sound like a self-help booklet...

It's quite fun picturing you as Morpheus. Except I dunno what you look like, so it's just... Morpheus, actually. Awesome sauce, man.

I look like the opposite of Morpheus.

Well, that's even more interesting to picture. White and skinny, I presume? We've got Cloud Strife in his bad-ass cloak!

[spiraldoor]

Heh, I can think of worse 'uns, don't worry - although true artists burn absolutely everything . But how would you lose everything you've done? I think that's what I struggle with most, your feeling that your entire life is just a waste in the end. What about all the stuff you do? The friends you meet, the babies you make , everything you bring to the world? Even just having a discussion like this is worth something. It's not everyday (well, it is now ) that I get to talk to someone who thinks so deeply about issues like this, and it's really quite enlightening. Even after you die, even if it means YOU as a conscious being dissolve into nothingness, all those memories are left, aren't they? The people who have known you, your children, all the various thingamajigs you've helped to make (sorry, I don't really know your interests or aspirations!) - they go on as a testament to you. Perhaps you're not aware of it once dead, but others are. Nothing's lost, whether there's an afterlife or not. Hell, I sound like a self-help booklet...

I know that dead people leave behind friends and family and a body of work and all that, but those things aren’t much comfort when faced with the reality of complete and utter non-existence. If there was an afterlife where you could look down on the people and works you’ve left behind and see that everyone is getting along nicely, death would be fine, but that’s not what I believe. I don’t understand how any atheist can be comfortable with the idea of dying and having their memories and personalty erased as though they had never even existed, then spending a literal eternity in a state of empty nothingness without so much as the ability to think. Sometimes I wonder if I’m the only one who actually thinks about it and comprehends the sheer horror of it. As far as I’m concerned, my death and the end of the universe are effectively the same thing, because I would experience these two things in exactly the same way: nothing at all.

It's quite fun picturing you as Morpheus. Except I dunno what you look like, so it's just... Morpheus, actually. Awesome sauce, man.

I look like the opposite of Morpheus.

Well, that's even more interesting to picture. White and skinny, I presume?

Pretty much. Also, I have hair on my head. And I don’t wear sunglasses.

[Jewish Candy]

I know that dead people leave behind friends and family and a body of work and all that, but those things aren’t much comfort when faced with the reality of complete and utter non-existence. If there was an afterlife where you could look down on the people and works you’ve left behind and see that everyone is getting along nicely, death would be fine, but that’s not what I believe. I don’t understand how any atheist can be comfortable with the idea of dying and having their memories and personalty erased as though they had never even existed, then spending a literal eternity in a state of empty nothingness without so much as the ability to think. Sometimes I wonder if I’m the only one who actually thinks about it and comprehends the sheer horror of it. As far as I’m concerned, my death and the end of the universe are effectively the same thing, because I would experience these two things in exactly the same way: nothing at all.

Hmm... whereas I would actually prefer complete, utter decimation to an afterlife.
I guess I'm the odd one here. Surely if you can't think, can't be, you can't actually KNOW the horror of it if it's even a horror at all... that's probably how the majority of atheists think, though I wouldn't know so much now I have faith. I've never met a person who fears death as much as you. The whole IDEA of being obliterated is completely incomprehensible, Giygas-like... Unfortunately, all I want to do is hug you now and tell you it'll all be ok in the end. So much for intellect. I wonder - why is it a horror? I get that you lose all your memories, all your being, but why does that scare you so much?
Also, I'd love to know how often you're thinking about this kind of thing. It's a hard concept to have floating around in the back of your mind.

Pretty much. Also, I have hair on my head. And I don’t wear sunglasses.

That's great, nor do I. SUNGLASSES. I do have hair.

[spiraldoor]

Hmm... whereas I would actually prefer complete, utter decimation to an afterlife.

Why is that? And why are you a Christian if you prefer the atheistic outlook?

I guess I'm the odd one here. Surely if you can't think, can't be, you can't actually KNOW the horror of it if it's even a horror at all... that's probably how the majority of atheists think, though I wouldn't know so much now I have faith. I've never met a person who fears death as much as you. The whole IDEA of being obliterated is completely incomprehensible, Giygas-like... Unfortunately, all I want to do is hug you now and tell you it'll all be ok in the end. So much for intellect. I wonder - why is it a horror? I get that you lose all your memories, all your being, but why does that scare you so much?

I suppose the whole ‘incomprehensibility’ of oblivion is the worst part. It’s difficult to even discuss such an abstract concept as the state of non-being, much less imagine not being. I think that most people who say they don’t fear death would if they were really able to wrap their heads round the concept. And I don’t think you should want to hug me or anything like that, that’s a bit creepy. I’ll be fine. It’s not so much that I find the notion of death ‘scary’ or ‘frightening’; not precisely, because those emotions would lose their applicability for me in the event of my death... it’s more like a dread, or an ‘aversion’ of some sort. I enjoy being alive and I do not like the idea of it all coming to an end.

Also, I'd love to know how often you're thinking about this kind of thing. It's a hard concept to have floating around in the back of your mind.

I think about it every day, but I usually don’t dwell on it very much. There are plenty of better things to think about.

[Jewish Candy]

Why is that? And why are you a Christian if you prefer the atheistic outlook?

Because faith isn't about what you WANT to believe - it's about what you see to be true. I've been convicted of the existence of God and the whole Christian shebang, really; whether I'd prefer him to exist or not is beside the point. You shouldn't believe something just because it sounds nice and fits in with your lifestyle...
Why'd I prefer nothingness? The peace of it, that's what. I'm not bothered if it's incomprehensible - it's a blank. That's enough for me. Call me lazy or blind if you must, but I will have to kill you.

I suppose the whole ‘incomprehensibility’ of oblivion is the worst part. It’s difficult to even discuss such an abstract concept as the state of non-being, much less imagine not being. I think that most people who say they don’t fear death would if they were really able to wrap their heads round the concept. And I don’t think you should want to hug me or anything like that, that’s a bit creepy. I’ll be fine. It’s not so much that I find the notion of death ‘scary’ or ‘frightening’; not precisely, because those emotions would lose their applicability for me in the event of my death... it’s more like a dread, or an ‘aversion’ of some sort. I enjoy being alive and I do not like the idea of it all coming to an end.

Creepy?! That's a bit harsh. Surely you can tell I feed off such emotional squeegees as hugs and glomps.
You say the incomprehensibility is what affects you the most. So, you dread oblivion, even though you can't understand it? Or because you can't understand it? This is naturally speculation, but if death is some big NOTHING in capital letters, wouldn't it be... I don't know, peaceful? They say ignorance is bliss - though I can't agree with that in many cases, perhaps in something like death it has some truth. You're not consciously aware of yourself when you sleep, except for breathing etc., so you could see death as an extension of that in a way. Then again, perhaps it's the fact you don't know what might happen that gives you the shivers... It's a shame it's an aversion, though. To dread something so inevitable (currently) so strongly must be... awful. That's why I want to hug you - but I'm good at restraining myself, so don't freak out.
All that being so, it's great that you enjoy being alive. More than can be said for a lot of people out there. That drive is important.

Methinks this discussion should end soon. We've eaten up an entire, well-meaning topic with our long posts and pensiveness. Not good.

[spiraldoor]

It's a shame it's an aversion, though. To dread something so inevitable (currently) so strongly must be... awful.

Strangely enough, it’s not awful at all. I’m able to deal with it perfectly well thanks to the sociological coping conditioning that we all have. It was quite disturbing the first time I thought deeply about it enough to really understand it, but I got over that. And there’s a reasonable possibility that the whole issue of ageing and death will be medically solved at some point during my lifetime. I won’t panic just yet, I think.

[Jewish Candy]

Heh, that's good. Yeah, who knows with technology today? You might just get your wish.
You must have been this deep a thinker since you were a tyke, if you've got over the "OH MY GAWD" by now.

[Danone]

what both talking now???