Rayman 3D

[iHeckler9]

Oh, not another spiral-someone else arguement.

[spiraldoor]

You really don't get economy do you? Your first argument is bullshit:
* Make the cure available at an affordable price -> no profit, there aren't enough people asking for the product.
* Make the cure available at a price that will make profit possible -> no profit, since no one can afford it
Your second argument is bullshit:
* Even if you do find new species, the costs related to getting them here or going there will be so high that selling these creatures or trading with them will be unprofitable.

Are you saying that everyone who develops cures to rare diseases is doing so at a loss? That sure has some interesting implications, but what the fuck does it have to do with Ubisoft porting Rayman 2 to the 3DS? It seems that you are attempting to make some sort of wider point about the demand for new scientific advancements which has absolutely nothing to do with the matter at hand. You then proceed to make a number of arbitrary and previously unmentioned assumptions regarding these extraterrestrial lifeforms you keep talking about and exactly how difficult it would be to do anything with them. Why the hell are we talking about aliens, anyway? Try and stick to the subject of Rayman 3DS without relying on outlandish science-fiction analogies.

Oh, you've never tried to port C++ software to another hardware architecture / operating system did you? Because let me tell you that that is actually a task that most of the time will require the conversion of files, the rewriting of some ( or all ) of the game engine, updating the graphics, updating the sounds, etc...

That's a lot of work, that effort can be put into making new games.

And assuming that the energy going into Rayman 3D couldn't be spent making a new Rayman 4 is clearly wrong.

The amount of time and effort required to port an old game to a new platform is nothing compared to the amount of time and effort required to develop a brand-new game from scratch. Do you seriously think that less games are being made because everyone is too busy doing remakes? Have you noticed the number of games being released in recent years dropping as remakes become more prevalent? Do you have any sources to back this up?

Opinions are usually expressed in the first person plural form. I suggest you get used to that, since half of the people does it.

So you’re telling me that when you said ‘we don’t need remakes’, what you really meant was ‘I don’t need remakes’? Maybe that makes sense in whatever your native language is, but in English it means that you’re making a sweeping statement regarding the views of an unspecified body of people. It’s highly presumptuous, inaccurate and unfair. Don’t do it. If you’re talking about yourself, say ‘I’, not ‘we’.

And no, I actually prefer that kids don't enjoy old games on their brand new consoles, I want them to enjoy new Rayman games on their consoles. They deserve more then remakes of ten year old games.

Why can’t they play both? Look at the Mario series. New platformers every year, and there are dozens of ports, remakes and re-releases as well. Where exactly is the problem with this system?

And I never said that people shouldn't be allowed to want remakes. I only said that I prefer original games.

No, you have specifically said that you do not think the game should be remade. If it was left up to you, the game would be relegated to the obsolete platforms and all the people who want a remake would be denied one. If you ‘prefer original games’, then great, go and play them. But don’t attempt to ruin remakes for the rest of us.

There should be a balance between them. They shouldn't be like in your black and white world.

You think I live in a ‘black and white world’? Do elaborate. You seem to think that I am some sort of emotionless automaton which runs on pure logic, and that I need to find a ‘balance’. Putting aside this silliness for the time being, your argument appears to be ‘I feel this way, therefore all your logic is irrelevant’. This is very stupid. You can feel whatever emotions you want, and it will still not provide a valid reason as to why Rayman 2 should not be remade. You can do better. It’s not as if I’m saying ‘According to my emotions, Rayman 2 should be remade, therefore your logic is bullshit’. Try and support your point of view properly. Saying that everyone who wants a remake should be denied one ‘because that’s how I feel’ is just pathetic.

No offense, but she's right. We give you arguments based on emotion, and you give counter-arguments based on logic and reason. This clearly doesn't work. You can't fight logical arguments with emotional arguments. And that is the only thing that gives you the impression that you have won. Rayfan didn't lose, she just stepped out of the argument because continuing was useless for the reasons I said earlier.

You can’t fight logical arguments with emotional arguments? Why not? All of the arguments against remaking Rayman 2 so far have been nonsensical (eg ‘it will lose its magic’), whereas the arguments in favour of remaking Rayman 2 (eg ‘it will bring Rayman to a new audience’, ‘it will not harm the original in any way’, ‘you don’t have to play it if you don’t want to’ etc) have been perfectly good. You are inaccurately attempting to paint this debate as an issue of ‘logic versus emotion’ instead of what it actually is: pro-remake versus anti-remake. It would make about as much sense to introduce ‘science versus religion’ or some rubbish like that. RayFan simply ‘stepped out of the argument’ rather than losing? That’s quite convenient. Next time I lose an argument, I think I’ll just say ‘I’m stepping out of this argument because continuing is pointless’ – I’m sure that will cover my failure nicely. You claim that your arguments are based on emotion – which arguments, exactly, are you talking about? The one about unprofitable trading with space aliens? The one where you claim that ports are destroying the originality and culture of the games industry because all the new games’ budgets are being spent on them?

Maybe we should stop re-releasing old films in improved quality on Blu-ray Disc; it’s much better to spend that money on making new films instead! In fact, the existence of Blu-ray re-releases is probably the reason no original films ever come out any more; the studios are spending all the new films’s budgets on re-releases of old films instead! And kids can always just watch the old DVDs, right?

Oh, not another spiral-someone else arguement.

How perceptive of you.

[Haruka]

Holy jesus.

I just want to try the game as soon as possible after release.

[Joshua822]

Are you saying that everyone who develops cures to rare diseases is doing so at a loss?

Yes. But that is irrelevant here. It was a comparison to make a point clear. And it actually is valid for obvious reasons.

That sure has some interesting implications, but what the fuck does it have to do with Ubisoft porting Rayman 2 to the 3DS? It seems that you are attempting to make some sort of wider point about the demand for new scientific advancements which has absolutely nothing to do with the matter at hand. You then proceed to make a number of arbitrary and previously unmentioned assumptions regarding these extraterrestrial lifeforms you keep talking about and exactly how difficult it would be to do anything with them. Why the hell are we talking about aliens, anyway? Try and stick to the subject of Rayman 3DS without relying on outlandish science-fiction analogies.

Again, it was a comparison, a counter-point for your argument that recycling games makes sense for Ubisoft due to economical reasons. You mocked my comparison, and I only showed you that the comparison is valid.

The amount of time and effort required to port an old game to a new platform is nothing compared to the amount of time and effort required to develop a brand-new game from scratch. Do you seriously think that less games are being made because everyone is too busy doing remakes? Have you noticed the number of games being released in recent years dropping as remakes become more prevalent? Do you have any sources to back this up?

You're just ignoring my argument now and just copy-pasted this from your previous post. I've pointed out in my earlier post that porting games can actually take much effort, if you want to do it right at least.
And for your information: I never said that recycling old games keeps people from making new ones. I said the energy put on recycling old games is more wisely spent on actually making new games. You might only have misunderstood me.

So you’re telling me that when you said ‘we don’t need remakes’, what you really meant was ‘I don’t need remakes’? Maybe that makes sense in whatever your native language is, but in English it means that you’re making a sweeping statement regarding the views of an unspecified body of people. It’s highly presumptuous, inaccurate and unfair. Don’t do it. If you’re talking about yourself, say ‘I’, not ‘we’.

Why don't you go watch or read some real debates and see? There is something called abstractness in natural languages, you should check it out.

Why can’t they play both? Look at the Mario series. New platformers every year, and there are dozens of ports, remakes and re-releases as well. Where exactly is the problem with this system?

I said prefer, not can't. There is a reason I chose to use 'prefer' here. And even then, just because Nintendo does something already doesn't necessarily mean I like it.

And they actually can play both with the use of emulators. At least great programmers and wonderful artists can spend their time on making new games then.

You think I live in a ‘black and white world’? Do elaborate. You seem to think that I am some sort of emotionless automaton which runs on pure logic, and that I need to find a ‘balance’. Putting aside this silliness for the time being, your argument appears to be ‘I feel this way, therefore all your logic is irrelevant’. This is very stupid. You can feel whatever emotions you want, and it will still not provide a valid reason as to why Rayman 2 should not be remade. You can do better. It’s not as if I’m saying ‘According to my emotions, Rayman 2 should be remade, therefore your logic is bullshit’. Try and support your point of view properly. Saying that everyone who wants a remake should be denied one ‘because that’s how I feel’ is just pathetic.

Actually, a point of view can be supported trough emotions. True, the arguments are weaker then logic. But then again, maybe not quite if you keep in mind that we are actually talking about a game, a piece of art here, and that opinions about art are almost always expressed with emotions.

Therefore your logic is not irrelevant, but it isn't the only valid way to look at it and that's the point that some of us are trying to make to you.

You can’t fight logical arguments with emotional arguments? Why not? All of the arguments against remaking Rayman 2 so far have been nonsensical (eg ‘it will lose its magic’), whereas the arguments in favour of remaking Rayman 2 (eg ‘it will bring Rayman to a new audience’, ‘it will not harm the original in any way’, ‘you don’t have to play it if you don’t want to’ etc) have been perfectly good. You are inaccurately attempting to paint this debate as an issue of ‘logic versus emotion’ instead of what it actually is: pro-remake versus anti-remake.

Uhm... no, I'm not trying to make this a logic versus emotion debate. It's just relevant because when I expressed how I felt, and not the facts, you immediately began to make logical counter-arguments, and I tried to make this point to you.

And you can't find logical arguments with emotional arguments. If I say I think that a picture is beautiful, which is an emotion, you can't start to counter that with logical arguments. That doesn't work, since a picture isn't logical, feeling whether something is right or wrong is not logical.

It would make about as much sense to introduce ‘science versus religion’ or some rubbish like that. RayFan simply ‘stepped out of the argument’ rather than losing? That’s quite convenient. Next time I lose an argument, I think I’ll just say ‘I’m stepping out of this argument because continuing is pointless’ – I’m sure that will cover my failure nicely.

You can actually say that when people just keep repeating their own arguments without disproving your ones.

You claim that your arguments are based on emotion – which arguments, exactly, are you talking about? The one about unprofitable trading with space aliens? The one where you claim that ports are destroying the originality and culture of the games industry because all the new games’ budgets are being spent on them?

Reading and understanding what you read is a fine and respectable art.

Maybe we should stop re-releasing old films in improved quality on Blu-ray Disc; it’s much better to spend that money on making new films instead! In fact, the existence of Blu-ray re-releases is probably the reason no original films ever come out any more; the studios are spending all the new films’s budgets on re-releases of old films instead! And kids can always just watch the old DVDs, right?

If I'd prefer that? Well, actually I would. That's how I feel, sorry.

[Rsandee]

Yes, R3D is just a remake of Rayman 2.

Good to see that you went to the trouble of reading the thread.

:')
Sorry, but i just watched that vid i posted there, and i thought i should post it here.
I didn't have the time to break through those walls of text.

[Sabertooth]

Fuck me I've never seen so much wank over a port, was the fandom ever like this when Rayman DS was annoucned?

Well, that was only the second re-release. This is, what, the fifth?

[Adsolution]

I can't stand the





Spiral, I didn't lose, I just simply couldn't win, because using emotional variance just doesn't work when there's someone to prove you wrong using logic and won't see otherwise.

[EvanEDavies]

Maybe we could just back on topic for a tiny little second...

Forgive me if somebody else has already pointed this out, but the Rayman depicted on that case art looks definitely the closest reincarnation to the Rayman of R2... Rayman 3 is a full on game (not saying that r2 isn't) I think ubisoft will be lazy and the new game will be a port of r2. Not that there's anything bad about that, r2 is my favorite game of all time, seeing it in 3D would figuratively blow my freaking' mind

[Adsolution]

Maybe we could just back on topic for a tiny little second...

Forgive me if somebody else has already pointed this out, but the Rayman depicted on that case art looks definitely the closest reincarnation to the Rayman of R2... Rayman 3 is a full on game (not saying that r2 isn't) I think ubisoft will be lazy and the new game will be a port of r2. Not that there's anything bad about that, r2 is my favorite game of all time, seeing it in 3D would figuratively blow my freaking' mind

It has been pointed out like fifteen times that it's a port of Rayman 2, the most recent fourteen being told to read through the thread properly.

Just confirming, this is a port of Rayman 2.

[EvanEDavies]

Maybe we could just back on topic for a tiny little second...

Forgive me if somebody else has already pointed this out, but the Rayman depicted on that case art looks definitely the closest reincarnation to the Rayman of R2... Rayman 3 is a full on game (not saying that r2 isn't) I think ubisoft will be lazy and the new game will be a port of r2. Not that there's anything bad about that, r2 is my favorite game of all time, seeing it in 3D would figuratively blow my freaking' mind

It has been pointed out like fifteen times that it's a port of Rayman 2, the most recent fourteen being told to read through the thread properly.

Just confirming, this is a port of Rayman 2.

Ah my bad, I just couldn't be stuffed reading back all that way; I don't particularly care for this long and intricate argument...BUT YES! it's a r2 port! I knew it! Man this is going to be awesome...

[Adsolution]

Maybe we could just back on topic for a tiny little second...

Forgive me if somebody else has already pointed this out, but the Rayman depicted on that case art looks definitely the closest reincarnation to the Rayman of R2... Rayman 3 is a full on game (not saying that r2 isn't) I think ubisoft will be lazy and the new game will be a port of r2. Not that there's anything bad about that, r2 is my favorite game of all time, seeing it in 3D would figuratively blow my freaking' mind

It has been pointed out like fifteen times that it's a port of Rayman 2, the most recent fourteen being told to read through the thread properly.

Just confirming, this is a port of Rayman 2.

Ah my bad, I just couldn't be stuffed reading back all that way; I don't particularly care for this long and intricate argument...BUT YES! it's a r2 port! I knew it! Man this is going to be awesome...

Except for the fact that this game has already been ported like 5-6 times... sure.

But also you're kind of right, I wouldn't want to read through ten pages. Someone should update the original post.

[EvanEDavies]

Or politely tell those who don't have anything to contribute to the actual topic to post somewhere else so we can get back to talking about the awesomeness of this new game

[Adsolution]

Or politely tell those who don't have anything to contribute to the actual topic to post somewhere else so we can get back to talking about the awesomeness of this new game

You mean me? Well I disagree since it's not a new game, and it's not that much more awesome than it was before. Of course Rayman 2 has and always will be epically awesome, but I would hardly declare a 5-6th port of the same game to be an utterly awesome idea.

[spiraldoor]

Yes. But that is irrelevant here. It was a comparison to make a point clear. And it actually is valid for obvious reasons.

‘Obvious reasons’? I don’t see them. Your point seems to be that not all worthwhile actions are financially profitable, which I never disagreed with and which has no relevance to the subject of videogame re-releases.

Again, it was a comparison, a counter-point for your argument that recycling games makes sense for Ubisoft due to economical reasons. You mocked my comparison, and I only showed you that the comparison is valid.

It makes perfect financial sense for Ubisoft to recycle the Rayman games; however, I did not offer this fact as justification for the re-release, and your comparison has little to do with the matter at hand. The reason we should be glad that Rayman 2 is being remade is that a new audience who know Rayman only as ‘the guy from the rabbit games’ will now have an opportunity to experience the best game the series has to offer. The fact that this is a financially viable move for Ubisoft to make is their reason for remaking the game, and the fact that they’re bringing Rayman 2 to a new audience is the reason we should be happy. I agree that financially unsound actions such as the development of cures for rare diseases should sometimes be made, but I really do not see why this means a videogame should not be re-released.

You're just ignoring my argument now and just copy-pasted this from your previous post. I've pointed out in my earlier post that porting games can actually take much effort, if you want to do it right at least.
And for your information: I never said that recycling old games keeps people from making new ones. I said the energy put on recycling old games is more wisely spent on actually making new games. You might only have misunderstood me.

Porting games does take effort, but the amount of effort required to develop brand-new games is far greater. It seems that you want all the developers which are currently working on remakes to focus their efforts on developing original games instead. This is unfair to the many people who actually want to play updated versions of older games. There is plenty of room for both types of games in this industry. And do you really want Ubisoft Casablanca to work on an original Rayman game instead? They’re not worthy. Any attempt by them to develop a brand-new game with the budget of Rayman 3D would be a disaster.

Do you actually know how much time, effort and money it requires to develop a new game as opposed to re-releasing an old game on a new system? If you’ve got any links, feel free to share them. I am genuinely curious.

Why don't you go watch or read some real debates and see? There is something called abstractness in natural languages, you should check it out.

Why didn’t you just say what you meant, which is ‘I don’t want remakes’? How was I supposed to know you meant yourself when you said ‘we’? I thought you were talking about PC members, or the Rayman fandom, or even gamers in general. I never use such sweeping statements. The majestic plural sounds dreadfully pretentious in common discourse.

I said prefer, not can't. There is a reason I chose to use 'prefer' here. And even then, just because Nintendo does something already doesn't necessarily mean I like it.

And they actually can play both with the use of emulators. At least great programmers and wonderful artists can spend their time on making new games then.

Then you actually think that children should have a choice as to whether they want to play old or new games on their new consoles? Then that’s great, I agree with you. As long as new consoles have both old and new games, everyone should be perfectly satisfied and have no reason to complain. But are you saying you don’t like Nintendo’s treatment of the Mario series? Could you elaborate on that? It seems like a perfect model to me. I wouldn’t call Ubisoft Casablanca a team of ‘wonderful artists’; it’s not as if Michel Ancel is wasting his valuable time remaking his old games, you know. If there are any ‘great programmers’ amongst them, then their time is just as well spent on Rayman 2 as it would be on a new game. There are perhaps hundreds of thousands of people who will enjoy Rayman 3D, and a brand-new game could be a flop for all we know (not to mention the disparity between the effort it takes to programme brand-new games and to port old ones).

Actually, a point of view can be supported trough emotions. True, the arguments are weaker then logic. But then again, maybe not quite if you keep in mind that we are actually talking about a game, a piece of art here, and that opinions about art are almost always expressed with emotions.

Therefore your logic is not irrelevant, but it isn't the only valid way to look at it and that's the point that some of us are trying to make to you.

Uhm... no, I'm not trying to make this a logic versus emotion debate. It's just relevant because when I expressed how I felt, and not the facts, you immediately began to make logical counter-arguments, and I tried to make this point to you.

You’ve already proposed numerous logic-based arguments to support your views on Rayman 3D; aligning the pro-remake side with ‘logic’ and the anti-remake side with ‘emotion’ is simply a misleading way of looking at the issue. Raw emotion (eg ‘I really hate remakes’) is useless when attempting to support a point of view; arguments must always be augmented with logic (eg ‘I hate remakes because bad ones tarnish the games’ reputation’) if you wish them to be taken seriously. Hence my incredulity when you proclaimed that I couldn’t convince you with my ‘logical BS’.

And you can't find logical arguments with emotional arguments. If I say I think that a picture is beautiful, which is an emotion, you can't start to counter that with logical arguments. That doesn't work, since a picture isn't logical, feeling whether something is right or wrong is not logical.

But none of this is related to the issue of Rayman 3D. You may ‘feel’ that Rayman 2 shouldn’t be remade, but feelings are irrelevant if they’re just abstract sensations with nothing to back them up. It is not enough for me to simply say ‘I feel that abortion is wrong’; I must have some real arguments to back up those feelings (and no I’m not going to get into that issue now). We aren’t discussing how beautiful a painting is – if we were, then you would be right; logic would have little place in such a discussion. What we’re discussing is a tangible and concrete issue – ‘To remake or not to remake’ – and unsupported emotions have no relevance here.

You can actually say that when people just keep repeating their own arguments without disproving your ones.

Which argument against remaking Rayman 2 did I not disprove?

Reading and understanding what you read is a fine and respectable art.

I don’t know if you’re being sarcastic, or complimenting me, or taking the piss, or saying that I’m being incoherent. Clarification would be welcome.

If I'd prefer that? Well, actually I would. That's how I feel, sorry.

You would prefer for films not to be converted to Blu-ray? That is insanity. Do you also wish that all pre-1996 films had been kept restricted to VHS instead of being converted to DVD? And that all music recorded before 1983 had been kept on cassette tapes forever instead of being converted to CD? I am speechless.

Do you also wish that Rayman Revolution and the Dreamcast version of Rayman 2 had never been made? Good lord.

Maybe we could just back on topic for a tiny little second...

I don't particularly care for this long and intricate argument...

Or politely tell those who don't have anything to contribute to the actual topic to post somewhere else so we can get back to talking about the awesomeness of this new game

I think you’ve said that enough times already. Sorry if my posts magically stopped you from talking about Rayman 3D.

[Adsolution]

Reading and understanding what you read is a fine and respectable art.

I don’t know if you’re being sarcastic, or complimenting me, or taking the piss, or saying that I’m being incoherent. Clarification would be welcome.

I know right, just like your crappy excuse for opinions do.

[spiraldoor]

Reading and understanding what you read is a fine and respectable art.

I don’t know if you’re being sarcastic, or complimenting me, or taking the piss, or saying that I’m being incoherent. Clarification would be welcome.

I know right, just like your crappy excuse for opinions do.

Has anyone really been far as decided to use even go want to do look more like?

[Adsolution]

Reading and understanding what you read is a fine and respectable art.

I don’t know if you’re being sarcastic, or complimenting me, or taking the piss, or saying that I’m being incoherent. Clarification would be welcome.

I know right, just like your crappy excuse for opinions do.

Has anyone really been far as decided to use even go want to do look more like?

What?

[IllarKallas]

Another Rayman 2 port, Ubisoft has done this too many times, at least more people will get to know Rayman.

I hope it will not be as crappy as Revolution or DS, i don't expect too much from Ubisoft.

[syntheticgerbil]

Well, that was only the second re-release. This is, what, the fifth?

I think it was more like the third or fourth rerelease. I count the Dreamcast version as the initial rerelease as the game was going up a console generation for the first time and had a lot of character models revamped. Then I suppose you could count the PS2 and PSX version as two separate rereleases even later with one being a special edition version and the other being a strange backwards port version.

Ah my bad, I just couldn't be stuffed reading back all that way; I don't particularly care for this long and intricate argument...BUT YES! it's a r2 port! I knew it! Man this is going to be awesome...

You do realize that you not being stuffed to read a thread you are posting in only makes the thread even more unnecessarily long (case by case arguments aside) by internet forum etiquette rules? This is why reading threads in this forum is so ridiculously unwieldy and hard to follow for people like me who are used to more concise forums.

[Haruka]

Oh god guys, have you seen already the USA version of Rayman 3D's cover?



Lucky Americans.