Religion – your views

[ikke471]

wait.... did raytunes make that?

[Rulez]

No, I made it right now just for you.

[Rsandee]

That pretty much sums up my daily experience of reading Ikke's posts.

[Rulez]

That pretty much sums up my daily experience of reading Ikke's posts.

See.

[ikke471]

now i feel disliked.....


ok we are getting a bit too off-topic now...

[Rulez]

Aww don't be sad it's just jokes. C'mere give me a hug. Virtual hug.

[Rsandee]

That pretty much sums up my daily experience of reading Ikke's posts.

See.

See?

[Rulez]

Yeah I was referencing Demoman indeed.

[Adsolution]

That pretty much sums up my daily experience of reading Ikke's posts.

In more serious threads such as this, this is unfortunately the case.

Now everyone shut the fuck up unless you're talking about gOd or ash ketchum or whatever crazy fuck you fucking retarded kids believe in today.

[Rsandee]

That pretty much sums up my daily experience of reading Ikke's posts.

In more serious threads such as this, this is unfortunately the case.

Now everyone shut the fuck up unless you're talking about gOd or ash ketchum or whatever crazy fuck you fucking retarded kids believe in today.

> Implying people that believe in God are retarded.

And actually, I'm also a faithful disciple of Ash-motherfucking-Ketchum and I'm offended by this matter.

[Adsolution]

That pretty much sums up my daily experience of reading Ikke's posts.

In more serious threads such as this, this is unfortunately the case.

Now everyone shut the fuck up unless you're talking about gOd or ash ketchum or whatever crazy fuck you fucking retarded kids believe in today.

> Implying people that believe in God are retarded.

And actually, I'm also a faithful disciple of Ash-motherfucking-Ketchum and I'm offended by this matter.

Two things:

1) I love Pokemon, especially Mr. Ketchup or whatever his name is.

2) I didn't say people who believe in god or retarded, I would never say something so bigoted.

3) Awntopic. Nao.

[Rsandee]

Ofcourse not, I was mostly joking you.
And everyone loves pokemon.

[Hunchman801]

I wasn't only talking about the more "recent" colonies, though they did also have a destructive effect. Take the opium wars for example. They practically destroyed China! China has produced many inventions whose credit has been robbed by Europe. And the Arabs have given this world mathematics! You can't deny all those great things! Some countries were advanced until Europeans came, like ancient Egypt. Egypt was the most advanced civilisation of its time in many ways!

You're absolutely wrong, the study of mathematics started with the Greek. Of course, the Indians brought a considerable contribution to numeration, and so did the Arabs to algebra, but only Europe used mathematics in such a way that it changed the whole world. Same for most Eastern inventions, like gunpowder: I don't even know what the Chinese achieved with it, and how Europe used it in history makes the fall of Constantinople, which was mainly caused by the use of cannons, look like a minor event. I'm not saying that Western culture is superior; it has simply forged the world we live in.

If you can't see how Islam has affected the world, then you are blind with ridiculous patriotism to a barbaric idol. I just can't understand how you can deny the fact that Islam has brought this world amazing things!

How could you fail so terribly at understanding my message? I never said Islam hadn't affected the world, I said that Christianity did a lot more, and I gave arguments to which you haven't replied—in fact, you haven't come up with a single argument to support your views on the subject. I don't even know where patriotism and a ‘barbaric idol’ come into this, not to mention that I'm an atheist—sounds pretty much like your usual bigoted hatred towards Christians to me.

Actually, I found out about this one by actually asking the source- I talked with a lot of people in India who said that they are Monotheists. My family's driver, a hotel owner, a hotel employee, a random guy I befriended in some town, all of them Hinduists who claim to be monotheists. I seem to remember reading about this in a book I got my hands on afterwards, but don't quote me on that.

Well that's not taking us anywhere.

[Tobbe]

I'm sorry to interrupt the Pokémon discussion, but iambored's latest eructation of bigoted nonsense really deserves some comment:

I wasn't only talking about the more "recent" colonies, though they did also have a destructive effect. Take the opium wars for example. They practically destroyed China! China has produced many inventions whose credit has been robbed by Europe. And the Arabs have given this world mathematics! You can't deny all those great things! Some countries were advanced until Europeans came, like ancient Egypt. Egypt was the most advanced civilisation of its time in many ways!

What exactly are you trying to achieve with this largely irrelevant non-argument? That other parts of the world than Europe have developed advanced civilisations and contributed to the collective knowledge of mankind? Sure, that is of course true, but noone her is denying that either. You seem to be debating a construct of your own mind - a straw man, if you will - who holds views that are not congruent with the views of real life Europeans, such as Hunch, Spiral, DesLife and myself. The impression you are giving us is that you think some kind of fundamentalist Eurocentrism reigns in Europe, that we Europeans look down on all other ethnic groups, and that we take all the credit for all the greatest achievements of mankind, both scientific and cultural. While this may have been true to a degree, say, a hundred years ago, this simply isn't the case today. Take it from me, who have studied basic global history as a part of a regular Norwegian education, and therefore have experienced the lack of Eurocentric indoctrination first hand.

You also have this bad habit of throwing out all sorts of claims without any form of substantiation. Your arguments become completely worthless if you are unable to substantiate them; simply making claims isn't enough to win any debate. For instance, can you substantiate your claim that Europeans have taken credit for many inventions that were originally Chinese? Or your implication that Europeans caused the downfall of ancient Egypt? If you can't, then these claims can be dismissed just as easily as they are made.

Anyway, your litany of great achievement made by peoples outside Europe is completely irrelevant, because noone is denying these things (although it should be said that the Arabs did not at all invent mathematics). Like I said, this entire piece of text is a straw man, loaded with bigotry and irrational hate. I'll come back soon to answer a few other pieces of bullshit you have managed to come up with since the last time I posted here.

[Adsolution]

While the Arabs did use precise mathematics to create the sultan temples, the Greek system achieved to be much more useful. Why do you think we use Greek letters when calculating mathematics? Obviously the Greeks just took credit for what the Arabs did I tells ya, just like how I'm positive that 1 > 2.

[Keane]

Ketchup religion? Count me in!

That pretty much sums up my daily experience of reading Ikke's posts.

See.

now i feel disliked.....


ok we are getting a bit too off-topic now...

[iambored2006]

And of course Christianity looks bad today because of Eastern culture. Buh. Over here we have jokingly obvious stereotypes. Over in the East you're taught to hate the West. I'm not talking about you in general perhaps, but you can see that it's somehow ironic.

I have one more question, why do you love America if you hate Europe? What has America done more beneficially than Europe? They're both amazing bands: Europe having The Final Countdown and America having Horse With No Name.

Now let me clear something up- I wasn't taught to hate anyone by anyone. Israel is one of the most western countries, more western than a lot of European countries. I have grown in a western setting, exactly like yours. The only difference is the taboo on Christianity here. My parents never taught me to hate westerners as we all are westerners, and they actually happen to disagree with me on more than of few of my opinions regarding early Christianity and American culture. You have just proven to me how much you are ignorant about Israel.
And believe me, those stereotypes of yours create more than you think of them. I can't walk in Europe without having to suffer frowns by innumerous people. I didn't get any of that crap in India, where I got my hands shaken by more than a few people because I'm an Israeli. Did you know that the Japanese congratulated Israel on the fantastic plans recorded in the Protocols of the Elders of Zion?

Now, you're last question is a hard one. I guess all I see in America, Americans and their culture is just a huge joke. And a good one at that, not like those German jokes in South Park...

I agree, what happened to the World Trade Centre was pretty amazing indeed.

Amazing. You seem so smart on the outside, and you are indeed very intelligent, which is exactly why I can't understand why you, spiral, would say such a stupid thing. Of course Islam today looks terrible, but that's (partially, some of the fault lies in Shia Muslims) because of western culture.

The way in which you equate your own socio-political views with objective intelligence is rather naïve, not to mention arrogant. If it had been a Christian terrorist organisation that destroyed the World Trade Centre you’d be all over them. Let me guess – you’re one of those ‘9/11 was an inside job’ nutters? Or have you found some other way to blame western culture (and Christianity, and Europeans) for the attack? Those poor peaceful Muslims would never do something so nasty. Perhaps those planes were hijacked by undercover cardinals, sent by the Vatican!

Are you kidding me?! How?! How did you again fail to understand me?! I'm not identifying with Al-Qaeda in any way, nor with any other terrorists! Believe me, no matter how much you hate them, I hate them more. Do you know why? Can you guess why? You're a smart guy, spiral. But since you have proven me wrong so many times in the past month, I'll fill you in on the reason- whatever they do, you are not truly affected. All of you. The 9/11 attacks was a sole event, at least compared to what happens in Israel. I live in fear for some of my family who live on the border of Israel with Syria, surrounded by people who just want them dead no matter what the price is. Another part lives in the west bank, and once when I was there, we got tear-gassed because of the Arabs in the area. Pretty hard to understand, it's a long story. And worst of all, I know what happened and is already reoccurring in Jerusalem, my home town- the Intifada. You don't know what that means. You don't really know what Intifada means. You don't know how it feels like to walk in your own city and see blown up buses and markets, scared of the fact that you don't know where your friends were when these things happened.
When I was talking about the great things Islam and Arabs have brought the world, I wasn't talking about the last few decades. If you ever learned about Islam, the tiniest piece of information you were ever taught about it, you would know what I'm talking about.

I'll probably never understand Hinduism.

Nor do I want to.

This is what I'm talking about. This is exactly what I'm talking about. Thank you, Rulez, for proving my point.

You're absolutely wrong, the study of mathematics started with the Greek. Of course, the Indians brought a considerable contribution to numeration, and so did the Arabs to algebra, but only Europe used mathematics in such a way that it changed the whole world. Same for most Eastern inventions, like gunpowder: I don't even know what the Chinese achieved with it, and how Europe used it in history makes the fall of Constantinople, which was mainly caused by the use of cannons, look like a minor event. I'm not saying that Western culture is superior; it has simply forged the world we live in.

I know that they haven't created mathematics or something, but I can safely say that our modern mathematics is mostly based on completely eastern inventions. Also, just a fact, Arabs have taken Greek maths and philosophy when Europe was blind with the middle ages as a blindfold, and progressed the the development of maths a lot. I agree with you that how the Chinese used gunpowder (for firecrackers, BTW. They initially wanted to create an elixir of life.) is less significant than how the Europeans used it, but there's a difference between that and claiming the credit for the invention of gunpowder. Today I saw this line in my history textbook- "The invention of the press- the 15th century by Gutenberg".
Such lies. Such terrible lies.

How could you fail so terribly at understanding my message? I never said Islam hadn't affected the world, I said that Christianity did a lot more, and I gave arguments to which you haven't replied—in fact, you haven't come up with a single argument to support your views on the subject. I don't even know where patriotism and a ‘barbaric idol’ come into this, not to mention that I'm an atheist—sounds pretty much like your usual bigoted hatred towards Christians to me.

Sorry for my laziness, but I really don't want to search for your arguments now. I'll do it another time, mommy . And when I said barbaric idol, I meant Europe. Don't mind that, I'm just filtering my anger so that I don't have another outburst. And please stop calling me a bigot, all of you. As I said, I'm trying to control myself, and you're really pushing me !

Actually, I found out about this one by actually asking the source- I talked with a lot of people in India who said that they are Monotheists. My family's driver, a hotel owner, a hotel employee, a random guy I befriended in some town, all of them Hinduists who claim to be monotheists. I seem to remember reading about this in a book I got my hands on afterwards, but don't quote me on that.

Well that's not taking us anywhere.

Sad, innit? Oh well, at least Stan knows what imma talking about.

What exactly are you trying to achieve with this largely irrelevant non-argument? That other parts of the world than Europe have developed advanced civilisations and contributed to the collective knowledge of mankind? Sure, that is of course true, but noone her is denying that either. You seem to be debating a construct of your own mind - a straw man, if you will - who holds views that are not congruent with the views of real life Europeans, such as Hunch, Spiral, DesLife and myself. The impression you are giving us is that you think some kind of fundamentalist Eurocentrism reigns in Europe, that we Europeans look down on all other ethnic groups, and that we take all the credit for all the greatest achievements of mankind, both scientific and cultural. While this may have been true to a degree, say, a hundred years ago, this simply isn't the case today. Take it from me, who have studied basic global history as a part of a regular Norwegian education, and therefore have experienced the lack of Eurocentric indoctrination first hand.

You also have this bad habit of throwing out all sorts of claims without any form of substantiation. Your arguments become completely worthless if you are unable to substantiate them; simply making claims isn't enough to win any debate. For instance, can you substantiate your claim that Europeans have taken credit for many inventions that were originally Chinese? Or your implication that Europeans caused the downfall of ancient Egypt? If you can't, then these claims can be dismissed just as easily as they are made.

Anyway, your litany of great achievement made by peoples outside Europe is completely irrelevant, because noone is denying these things (although it should be said that the Arabs did not at all invent mathematics). Like I said, this entire piece of text is a straw man, loaded with bigotry and irrational hate. I'll come back soon to answer a few other pieces of bullshit you have managed to come up with since the last time I posted here.

When I came to this forum, I was completely sure that not all Europeans are so full of themselves, and don't get me wrong- that's not the impression I got- I'm not a racist. What I do know is that you are all full of yourselves with Europe's culture. That saddens me, as I really think you aren't that kind of Europeans. Anyway, I'm glad that at least someone here got a none Eurocentric education, something I can't say about myself, at least not in the context of school. However, it seems to me that the education you got still emphasizes the 'glory', if you will, of Europe and its culture.
Many Chinese inventions' credit was claimed by Europeans, such as the invention of the gunpowder, the press, the discovery of America, some might argue. And the Greeks most certainly destroyed Egyptian culture (the Persians did rule on Egypt before them, but with ancient Persian open-mindedness, no harm was done).
Regarding your last paragraph, it really saddens me that you can argue rationally while at the same time insult me like a 12-year-old fool.

While the Arabs did use precise mathematics to create the sultan temples, the Greek system achieved to be much more useful. Why do you think we use Greek letters when calculating mathematics? Obviously the Greeks just took credit for what the Arabs did I tells ya, just like how I'm positive that 1 > 2.

You're mixing things up. The Arabic system is based on the Greek system. They are not separate nor were they contemporary. And why do you think we use Arabic/Indian numerals when calculating mathematics.

Edit: Tobbe, I forgot something important I wanted to say- the replies to my apology and rephrased expression of opinion (when I was banned) were enough evidence that you did simply get insulted by my opinion of Europe. DesLife, who banned me, was angry even after I rephrased myself, which proves I was banned for my opinion. That's fascism for you.

[stan423321]

The invention of the press- the 15th century by Gutenberg

It is so-called independent invention. The same thing happened with telephone. Not talking about misconception about "the press" (he came up with idea of splitting the pattern into letters, not with actual pushing; I really see why it didn't take off in China) - he invented the press, like Pascal came up with Pythagoras theorem and like I came up with the "tree of powers" for sums in programming.

And for last time, accusing Europeans of Eurocentrism is almost as senseless as accusing humans of not studing history of ancient gorilla tribe somewhere in Africa. Believe it or not, everybody who happens to take care about history takes care about their history primarily. Now, looking on the map, I suspect Israel of being kinda alone between Arab countries, and this can affect your perception of Eurocentrism a bit. And most of Jews are immigrants. But this doesn't work this way for i.e. Poland. We may have some arguments against Russians and Germans, but they are something more interesting than rarely seen actual Chinese or, for the sake of you understanding the fact, Jews expecting a welcome commitee because of "Polish genocide camps", constituted by Germans but who cares.

edit: grammar.

[Adsolution]

Now let me clear something up- I wasn't taught to hate anyone by anyone. Israel is one of the most western countries, more western than a lot of European countries.

I'm not talking about you in general perhaps, but you can see that it's somehow ironic

I have grown in a western setting, exactly like yours. The only difference is the taboo on Christianity here. My parents never taught me to hate westerners as we all are westerners, and they actually happen to disagree with me on more than of few of my opinions regarding early Christianity and American culture.

If you live in fear of buses and things being blown up then your society is nothing like mine.

You have just proven to me how much you are ignorant about Israel.
And believe me, those stereotypes of yours create more than you think of them.

I repeat:

I'm not talking about you in general perhaps, but you can see that it's somehow ironic

I can't walk in Europe without having to suffer frowns by innumerous people. I didn't get any of that crap in India, where I got my hands shaken by more than a few people because I'm an Israeli.

You must be paranoid and clouded. One of my friends was born in Israel and another born in Afghanistan, and no one cares both in Europe and North America. These countries and continents, especially North America have so many immigrants that they just blend into the lifestyle. In fact over here about half the population is Asian and Filipino, only about a quarter to a third of us are from European descent. It's not quite as varied in Europe but there's far less racism from European casualties than there is in North America. When I was in India for a month the folks were downright rude to me at every turn. Why? Because they barely have any immigrants.

Did you know that the Japanese congratulated Israel on the fantastic plans recorded in the Protocols of the Elders of Zion?

No I didn't, and frankly I don't care because that has nothing to do with anything.

Now, you're last question is a hard one. I guess all I see in America, Americans and their culture is just a huge joke. And a good one at that, not like those German jokes in South Park..

.
*your question. Sorry that typo just made me cringe.

But seriously, you've literally been stating that you praise America as your dream home and that you despise Europe when in reality they're not very different if you compare them to any other country or continent.

When I came to this forum, I was completely sure that not all Europeans are so full of themselves, and don't get me wrong- that's not the impression I got- I'm not a racist. What I do know is that you are all full of yourselves with Europe's culture.

Well duh, we're European so of course we have European culture, unless that's a "bad thing." What, so you think it would be better if we were filled with - well wait, your hate Israel's culture Europe's culture and America's culture - so, Ancient Chinese culture?

Regarding your last paragraph, it really saddens me that you can argue rationally while at the same time insult me like a 12-year-old fool.

A fool is a fool regardless of their age.

While the Arabs did use precise mathematics to create the sultan temples, the Greek system achieved to be much more useful. Why do you think we use Greek letters when calculating mathematics? Obviously the Greeks just took credit for what the Arabs did I tells ya, just like how I'm positive that 1 > 2.

You're mixing things up. The Arabic system is based on the Greek system. They are not separate nor were they contemporary. And why do you think we use Arabic/Indian numerals when calculating mathematics.

[/quote]
Durpies, I was mocking your previous arguments when you said "Europe takes credit for everything."

[Tobbe]

I go off to see one mediocre movie, and in the meantime iambored has managed to churn out yet another striated wall of text filled with mostly nonsense and logical fallacies. I'm gonna need a whole afternoon to refute all this in addition to the stuff I was already planning to write! But I'm not sure it's even worth it anymore, because debating with you seems to be completely pointless. No matter what arguments we make, you just respond with the same mess of red herrings, non sequiturs, shifting of goalposts and ignorance. I will take a few minutes out of my time to answer this, though:

Regarding your last paragraph, it really saddens me that you can argue rationally while at the same time insult me like a 12-year-old fool.

What is this referring to? Me calling you an ignorant bigot whose arguments are mostly bullshit? These are the only sound conclusions one can draw after reading everything you've written in this thread. Of course you feel insulted by being called an ignorant bigot (unless you're one of those people who take pride in being ignorant and bigoted, something you clearly aren't), but that doesn't make it any less true. After reading your arguments I have concluded that you are, in fact, just that. Spiral, Hunch, myself and many others have also been able to substantiate this through our arguments. My point is that my conclusion is completely justified, and that your whining about insults is either an attempt to avoid answering the paragraph in question, or an attempt to win sympathy for yourself and damage my credibility.

And concerning your ban: If we were to ban people simply because we did not like them or their opinions, you would have been permabanned long ago, so stop whining about that.