Rayman Origins

[sonicbrawler182]

That doesn't seem any more or less clear than in the PS1 version, though I suppose the health bar does have Mr. Dark's face anyway. I still would rather he have his own unique fighting style rather than just mixing previous bosses together.

Like I showed in the video of the GBC version, he has a unique fighting style in that version.

But that's a different game entirely. I'm talking about the game I played and the experience I had with that.

I may play the GBC version one day though.

[sergiomonty]

This is only made clear in the Atari Jaguar version, but Mr Dark is a shape-shifter.

Spiraldoor, pal... You made up that theory based just on a life bar, and randomly turned it into something official. You don't even know if that life bar just means Mr Dark's resources and not his actual energy.

EDIT: Watching the video of the final boss battle, your theory makes even less sense. If he truly turned into an hybrid, why does the first hybrid appear from the right if Mr Dark went up first? your theory would be believable if the first hybrid fell from above, since Mr Dark was supposed to be there.

Sadly, no, Mr Dark isn't a shape-shifter at all.

It's obvious that Mr Dark escaped and used his hybrids as his last resource to keep the great protoon in his hands. When he ran out of monsters to throw at Rayman (as shown in the life bar), he escaped and was never seen again.

[OCG]

I am actually with sergio on this one.

[spiraldoor]

Spiraldoor, pal... You made up that theory based just on a life bar, and randomly turned it into something official.

Allow me to demonstrate why you're talking nonsense. First, you attempt to discredit the implication that Mr Dark is a shape-shifter by liking me personally to the idea. The earliest instance I can find of the notion is Hunch's edit to Mr Dark's English RayWiki article in May 2009, citing work by someone named Evil Rayman. In fact, I made an edit the following October specifically to remove this assertion. I always resisted this idea. It was only when the Jaguar version of the fight came to light in November 2011 that I was convinced. Please drop the idea that I have some kind personal investment in this idea.

You don't even know if that life bar just means Mr Dark's resources and not his actual energy.

Moskito's bar reflects his health both times you battle him. Mr Sax's bar reflects his health. Mr Stone's bar reflects his health. Space Mama's bar reflects her health both times you battle her. Mr Skops's bar reflects his health. Why should Mr Dark's bar be any different? This idea that the bar next to Mr Dark's face on the final level's HUD is some kind of abstract energy bar that doesn't reflect his health is pure speculation, and is entirely unsupported by the text.

EDIT: Watching the video of the final boss battle, your theory makes even less sense. If he truly turned into an hybrid, why does the first hybrid appear from the right if Mr Dark went up first? your theory would be believable if the first hybrid fell from above, since Mr Dark was supposed to be there.

Personal criticism aside, your entire argument is that Mr Dark and the first hybrid leave and enter the arena from different angles! Stop for a moment and consider how silly this is. Showing Mr Dark literally transform into a hybrid of Mr Stone and Mr Skops would have been impossible to animate, so the transformation takes place off-screen. The entrance and exit both take place in the same general area of the screen, just at different angles. (I can't believe I'm having to explain this.) Mr Dark always flees by flying straight up. That's the animation they made for him. Maybe they would have made a special animation showing the Stone/Skops hybrid dropping straight down into the arena if they'd known that someone was going to use it as a bizarre point in an insane argument two people with far too much time on their hands would have about the game's climax eighteen years later!

Sadly, no, Mr Dark isn't a shape-shifter at all.

It's obvious that Mr Dark escaped and used his hybrids as his last resource to keep the great protoon in his hands. When he ran out of monsters to throw at Rayman (as shown in the life bar), he escaped and was never seen again.

You fail to address many other indications that the hybrids are intended to be Mr Dark, such as the fact that the hybrids are literally the only enemies in the game who ever flee or retreat. After losing half his health, the first hybrid is shown wiping sweat from his forehead, then retreating from the screen. The second hybrid enters the arena with half his health already missing – they could easily have been given separate health bars with their own icons and six points each, but no, they share a single health bar accompanied by Mr Dark's face. Once defeated, the second hybrid starts sweating, looks straight at the camera, and flies into the sky in Mr Dark fashion. Mr Dark flies by in the credits, following on from the battle and promising a return. The other versions of the game, though they lack the linking animations, provide an additional nail in the coffin of the idea that Mr Dark created actual hybrids of the previous bosses by adding a stage in which the player must simultaneously battle two hybrids of Moskito and Space Mama. These could not exist as separate creatures – they literally have the head of the same person! They also share a single health bar (with, of course, the face of Mr Dark), indicating that they are incarnations of the same being – it is possible to defeat one by attacking the other. It's clear that these are not meant to be separate characters but magical transformations. Another factor to consider is that Rayman converts each boss back to their natural good state when he defeats them, hence their dancing and their absence when the player revisits levels in which they previously appeared. It would make no sense for Mr Dark to be able to create actual hybrids of them – they don't work for him any more.

You know what, to hell with this, I've got an information modelling assignment to do by nine o'clock tomorrow. Have a good night.

[Haruka]

Ales is like André for me: an annoying villain. I still prefer Razorbeard and Mr. Dark over them.

And concerning the Jaguar fact, guys it is Mr. Dark transforming himself. Can't you even see the sweat of the Mr.Skops/Stone body and the energy bar? I thought this doubt was clear since the reveal of this version.

[sonicbrawler182]

Never thought my opinions on the Rayman villains would spiral into this. Huh.

Oh, and if they count, the Rabbids are actually my second favourite villain.

[OCG]

They should count since they were villains in RRR1

[sergiomonty]

First, you attempt to discredit the implication that Mr Dark is a shape-shifter by liking me personally to the idea.

If only you weren't so paranoid. No, it's not because of you. It's because the whole idea is absurd and not completely demonstrated. The holes in the theory are completely noticeable.

And concerning the Jaguar fact, guys it is Mr. Dark transforming himself. Can't you even see the sweat of the Mr.Skops/Stone body and the energy bar? I thought this doubt was clear since the reveal of this version.

It's just an animation. Bosses don't just disappear in a cloud when Rayman defeats them, so they simply leave. Rayman 1 is just that cheesy. Something usually happens to them, or they just decide to dance along with Rayman. These bosses just decide to escape.

Moskito's bar reflects his health both times you battle him. Mr Sax's bar reflects his health. Mr Stone's bar reflects his health. Space Mama's bar reflects her health both times you battle her. Mr Skops's bar reflects his health. Why should Mr Dark's bar be any different?

Maybe because you don't actually fight him? Or what? do you need a different coloured bar to show Mr Dark's resources? when you can simply understand by simple view that he's losing all of the last resources that he owns?

This idea that the bar next to Mr Dark's face on the final level's HUD is some kind of abstract energy bar that doesn't reflect his health is pure speculation, and is entirely unsupported by the text.

And as long as there's not a solid proof that all of the hybrids coming from different random angles are Mr Dark, the theory of Mr Dark suddenly becoming a shape-shifter is as ridiculous and as speculative.

Personal criticism aside, your entire argument is that Mr Dark and the first hybrid leave and enter the arena from different angles! Stop for a moment and consider how silly this is. Showing Mr Dark literally transform into a hybrid of Mr Stone and Mr Skops would have been impossible to animate, so the transformation takes place off-screen. The entrance and exit both take place in the same general area of the screen, just at different angles. (I can't believe I'm having to explain this.)

Do you think this is a game or something? Pal, I have no problem with Mr Dark going off-screen. As you said, yes, the specs wouldn't let the animation turn Mr Dark into all those hybrids. But then there's this part that you fail to explain: The angles.

Why does that happen? why can't he simply go up and then go down in a different form? why does Mr Dark go up and suddenly appear on the right with a different form? Sure, if you use your imagination, he could have teleported, but guess what? the first time you see it, you couldn't tell! And there's no written document that confirms that Mr Dark was that guy! It's just a theory!

You know what, to hell with this, I've got an information modelling assignment to do by nine o'clock tomorrow. Have a good night.

What happened, Spiral? still sad because I totally destroyed your theory about the Mocking bird? Well, good luck with your assignment. I hope when you come back, you can explain me those random angles the monsters come from This isn't over yet, I still want to debate.

Also, what the fuck? Just because the monsters don't dance it's supposed to mean that they're not Mr Dark? what the hell?

[OCG]

Again, still agreeing with Sergio.
Also, if Mr. Dark was shape-shifter, I think Ubisoft would mention that in manual.

[sonicbrawler182]

It's kind of inconsequential whether or not he is, honestly.

[Haruka]

Again, still agreeing with Sergio.
Also, if Mr. Dark was shape-shifter, I think Ubisoft would mention that in manual.

[sergiomonty]

Again, still agreeing with Sergio.
Also, if Mr. Dark was shape-shifter, I think Ubisoft would mention that in manual.

Haruka, I respect you and you know that. But why don't you think of a real argument instead of just booning around adding basically nothing to the discussion? My apologizes if the question bugs you.

[Rayfist]

I usually do feel pretty odd when someone replies to me in a boon, since it leaves so many untouched detail for me to need to know on what made me booned. XD

[sergiomonty]

I usually do feel pretty odd when someone replies to me in a boon, since it leaves so many untouched detail for me to need to know on what made me booned. XD

Give Nice Moments. Give Memories.

Give Hugs, not Boons.

[OCG]

Again, still agreeing with Sergio.
Also, if Mr. Dark was shape-shifter, I think Ubisoft would mention that in manual.

May I nicely ask why boon?

[Haruka]

Again, still agreeing with Sergio.
Also, if Mr. Dark was shape-shifter, I think Ubisoft would mention that in manual.

Haruka, I respect you and you know that. But why don't you think of a real argument instead of just booning around adding basically nothing to the discussion? My apologizes if the question bugs you.

Like if I was booning all the time. I booned because, in the point of view of OCG, to prove that, for example, Bimbette is a daughter of Globox, it should have should be mentioned in the manual. We also already talked in private concerning the Mr. Dark discussion.

[Keane]

Manuals are not your friend for big information. Their just simply put together little reads to give you a basic idea of what the game is about. Going as far into detail as to mention a possible ability in the final boss is ridiculous.

Also what the hell is wrong with the tone of this discussion. Talking about winning debates and acting like the other is a retard, yet the subject is... a nearly pointless argument about Mr. Dark... ok...

[sonicbrawler182]

The latter paragraph in your post were my thoughts exactly, Keane....

[Bionichute]

Manuals are not your friend for big information.

Well, except for, you know, telling us Rayman's origin in the Origins manual.

[Haruka]

Going as far into detail as to mention a possible ability in the final boss is ridiculous.

You said it. I don't know how a talk about Ales turned into Mr. Dark's final battle of Rayman 1 but I won't mess up with it for longer either.