Rayman 3 scores

[MandM81]

I have argued that the HoF is free, public and for everyone, to equal rights.

Free, public, for everyone, equal rights, fairness. Well, all plus words in my book. I'm sure some players here would like to discuss the R3 and the development of the game with you on your forum. I for one would welcome the chance to brush off my German.

How do we become members and get a password to your forum if we want to discuss R3 with you? I assume the same demands for free, public, for everyone, fairness and equal rights that you expect form RPC will apply to your forum.

[raymancool_bis]

I have argued that the HoF is free, public and for everyone, to equal rights. Yet, you say that there are some kind of "authorities" here, that should be "notified". This is exactly the point I am making, if the HoF is free, then there should be no such authorities, yet you keep assuming that there, thus creating some kind of HoF-hierarchy.

well potato i'm new here but the hall of fame is operated by pirate community and if a decision has to be taken like whether to kick an apparent cheater or to accept a new bug i think a pirate community official does it. (some big cheese correct me if i'm wrong ) no idea who because the place is kinda bureaucratic with 4 levels of staff from moderator to head admin and other positions on raytunes and raywiki and even the hall of fame apparently. (i'm not criticising, i understand given the size of the pirate community)
so i'm curious to know who'll take the decision and when

[Dart]

the answer is that the hall off fame is a direct democracy, and this debate will end once one side falls to the other and one particular motion has been carried, I bet 10 tings on Adsolution side of the debate winning!

[raymancool_bis]

obviously no side is gonna fall to other potato

[Xenon]

@ sfn: Interesting points on the validation suggestion. The only problem is that the HOF is already governed by 'moderators', and for a good reason: to prevent foul play in the form of cheaters entering false scores and claiming rankings they don't deserve. I've been reading the previous posts on this and I really object to the way the "RPC vs TSF" issue has been knocked back and forth like a tennis ball. In light of this (and the fact that we now know the secrets), perhaps now is a good time to remove the password protection in TSF?

With regards to the public vote, I am aware of the cons but eventually we're going to have to resolve this issue once and for all. If you have no other solution, I see no other way. Whatever happens, quite a few people are not going to welcome the result, and probably a small handful will bitterly oppose it.

Finally, about the IPG: there is one criterion that will stand under close scrutiny, and that's the fact that a lot of people think that it goes against the heart and spirit of the game. That says something rather big about the issue. If it was between two players, locked in competition, that would be different, but it's a whole community built up of largely impartial players like you and I. And if something "this small" creates this kind of sandstorm in the scoring community, it's something worthy of inspection and possibly even rejection.

Edit: Could someone please remove this ignoramus...

[Adsolution]

First, I want to take all of you on a little mental experiment.

Given how self-righteous your arguments are as reinstated once more by MandM, I have no reason to trust you and am going to assume it's some sort of trick. I shall bypass the experiment.

I have thought about it and I have come to a satisfying answer for myself. Can you say the same thing for yourself?

The problem with this is that if what you believe my motives to be and what my actual motives are differ, you're going to have convinced yourself of something completely untrue and will continue to speak with that assumption in mind. Isn't that just mildly retarded?

There's really no point in me putting up another constructive argument if its potential validity is going to be brushed aside and simply taken with a grain of salt (if that) due to whatever you believe my/our motives to be. I think it's pretty obvious where I stand on the issue and why, and I shouldn't need to play Rayman 3 fifteen hours a day, every day to have my own ground.

Edit: Could someone please remove this ignoramus...

Yep.

[sfn42]

I have argued that the HoF is free, public and for everyone, to equal rights.

Free, public, for everyone, equal rights, fairness. Well, all plus words in my book. I'm sure some players here would like to discuss the R3 and the development of the game with you on your forum. I for one would welcome the chance to brush off my German.

How do we become members and get a password to your forum if we want to discuss R3 with you? I assume the same demands for free, public, for everyone, fairness and equal rights that you expect form RPC will apply to your forum.

Your accusations do not hold up if one actually looks at the situation in more detail. First of all, everyone is free to register on TSF and browse all the forums except the R3 section, which in terms of posts is about 1/8 – 1/7 of the whole forum. You are also free to browse all non-forum-sections. This is the equivalent of closing a few threads in RPC, not of shutting down the whole forum, as you seem to be suggesting.

Second of all, we closed the R3 section for competitive reasons, as CC explained in much detail. The forum contains videos of the IPG and some ideas of what do to with it. Therefore, to allow the boost to the competition we wanted to achieve (again, CC explained this in so much detail to you in November), we had to either delete those links or close the forum. We decided to do the latter because we didn't want to delete stuff. These issues with regards to competition still hold, even now that the IPG has been published.

Thirdly, the decision to close the R3 forum on TSF was a unanimous decision by all active members of the forum. We didn't exclude anyone. Nobody on this forum (other than CC, MG, Cut and myself, of course) ever showed any interest in contributing to the TSF community, none of you ever even made an account or posted anything there. I do not understand why we should base decisions about and within a community on people who are not part of the community and have never shown any genuine interest in being part of the community. Furthermore, we received no complaints about this decision at a later date from any (then-inactive) members of TSF or people wanting to join TSF.

Fourth, whether you like it or not, CC, MG, Cut and I are members of RPC. We are not the most frequent posters, but we are part of this forum. You, as I explained above, are not part of TSF. This puts us on very different levels with regards to the respective communities.

Fifth, the HoF is separate from this thread and from the RPC-forum. There's a good reason for that: the HoF actually belongs to Ubisoft. They programmed it and hosted it for a long time, free, public and with equal rights for everyone. Then, they were so generous to lend the code, their property, to RPC-administrators, in order to recreate the HoF here on this site. Closing off a forum and closing off the HoF is in no way equivalent.

And finally, you are trying to deny us the rights to the HoF, to this forum and now you are even trying to deny us the rights to do what we want with our own forum by demanding that we do with our forum as you want. You are free to open your own forum and do with it whatever you want, but we're not going to tolerate your constant attempts at bullying us into doing something.

I have argued that the HoF is free, public and for everyone, to equal rights. Yet, you say that there are some kind of "authorities" here, that should be "notified". This is exactly the point I am making, if the HoF is free, then there should be no such authorities, yet you keep assuming that there, thus creating some kind of HoF-hierarchy.

well potato i'm new here but the hall of fame is operated by pirate community and if a decision has to be taken like whether to kick an apparent cheater or to accept a new bug i think a pirate community official does it. (some big cheese correct me if i'm wrong ) no idea who because the place is kinda bureaucratic with 4 levels of staff from moderator to head admin and other positions on raytunes and raywiki and even the hall of fame apparently. (i'm not criticising, i understand given the size of the pirate community)
so i'm curious to know who'll take the decision and when

That's a good question. Think of it like in a state. A state needs a police to keep things orderly, but that doesn't mean that policeman have any more or less rights than regular citizens. The Hall of Fame-staff is like the police, they should keep things orderly but they cannot make up their own rules and decide on who is actually allowed to be part of the HoF or not. You usually find policeman who actually do that only in very corrupt states and dictatorships. This also relates to Xenon's latest post, of course.

With regards to the public vote, I am aware of the cons but eventually we're going to have to resolve this issue once and for all. If you have no other solution, I see no other way. Whatever happens, quite a few people are not going to welcome the result, and probably a small handful will bitterly oppose it.

So you're suggesting a highly unreliable and easy to manipulate method to resolve this issue, just to get it out of the way? That tells me a lot about how important it is to you. Why do you keep pushing for HoF-modifications, then?

Finally, about the IPG: there is one criterion that will stand under close scrutiny, and that's the fact that a lot of people think that it goes against the heart and spirit of the game. That says something rather big about the issue. If it was between two players, locked in competition, that would be different, but it's a whole community built up of largely impartial players like you and I. And if something "this small" creates this kind of sandstorm in the scoring community, it's something worthy of inspection and possibly even rejection.

That is exactly the point I have been making. You're providing no objective reasons. Rather, you pack your personal feelings of dislike for the IPG into some fancy words (“heart and spirit of the game”) and, then, based on these feelings you (and others) are trying to dictate how the game is supposed to be played. I advocate freedom to play, with a free HoF and rules governed only by the game itself.

First, I want to take all of you on a little mental experiment.

Given how self-righteous your arguments are as reinstated once more by MandM, I have no reason to trust you and am going to assume it's some sort of trick. I shall bypass the experiment.

At the time I felt that the discussion was going nowhere, so I took some time to actually think about the issues I brought up. I asked all of the others involved in this discussion to do the same. Your blatant refusal to do so tells me that I have been spot-on when calling you narrowminded repeatedly.

I find it curious, though, that you perceive just about every general statement I make as a personal attack.

There's really no point in me putting up another constructive argument if its potential validity is going to be brushed aside and simply taken with a grain of salt (if that) due to whatever you believe my/our motives to be. I think it's pretty obvious where I stand on the issue and why, and I shouldn't need to play Rayman 3 fifteen hours a day, every day to have my own ground.

If you have any new arguments, feel free to bring them. So far, all your arguments have been incredibly far-fetched and did not reflect the reality of Rayman 3 in any way. I have refuted them in much detail. If you feel like bringing them up again, just look at my responses a few pages back and you have your refutation.

[Adsolution]

Your blatant refusal to do so tells me that I have been spot-on when calling you narrowminded repeatedly.

According to your method of reasoning, which may be just as flawed in the eyes of someone else given that there are fewer people who agree with your current outlook on the Hall of Fame issue than there are those that disagree with you, making your integral 'statement' of my supposed narrow-mindedness just as disagreeable. "No U!"

I find it curious, though, that you perceive just about every general statement I make as a personal attack.

How and when did I take this as a personal attack? There was literally nothing in my post that implied I took it as a personal attack, in fact, I even used the word 'our' (referring to everyone on my side of the discussion) in it. The part of my post about not trusting you was actually a sarcastic response to how shockingly elite you believe your position in this debate to be to actually go as far as to have us subjected to an excruciatingly puerile 'mental experiment' of yours, as if you're the only rationally competent person on this planet.

[MandM81]

Sfn: I’ll follow Xenon, who apparently is not a tennis fan , and let this be my last comment on the TSF vs RPC theme.

Thank you for your detailed explanation about the difference between TSF and this community.

I did bring this up because it is at the very heart of the discussions we’re having. It’s about gaming culture and gaming ethics. You blocked access to your forum for “competitive reasons”, which is what it is. But it’s a symptom of a gaming culture you, Cut, MG and CC represent. A culture that I hope will not spread in RPC. You are so hell-bent on improving your positions in HoF that you will use any means in your power to do so, even if it means using dubious, game-changing glitches or other shortcuts.

I sense you are here solely to defend your use of IPG and your sales pitch being it is a pre-existent glitch. Any questions or reservations members might have against this glitch have been met by you calling them narrow-minded and worse. In fact, I don’t sense any respect at all from you, Cut or CC for the members in RPC. And, what’s perhaps worse, you don’t show any respect for the game that has been a big part of our lives.

Xenon is right about the heart and the spirit of the game. It’s a very important parameter, perhaps the most important one when it comes to scoring. In my view, the use of IPG as a tool for scoring is a perversion of a great game. And allowing this to count in HoF will shift focus to looking for game-changing glitches more than anything else.

You ask for objective reasons for not allowing pre-existent, game-changing glitches to count in HoF? Well, that’s easy. Look above. Another reason is, you don’t get to choose what pre-existent glitches you want to count or not. If they are allowed, then that’s it. That means IPG, MG’s discovery (yes, this will be allowed too) and what else that will follow. Some glitches may accidentally make certain combos possible, others may make things a lot easier for some and others again will perhaps make scoring completely meaningless and some may be platform dependent. If you invite the devil inside...

I suggest we don’t go that way.

[Sajiki]

so basically, after reading through the last pages of this thread i have come to the conclusion that my desire to contribute to this discussion has quite diminished. for me, relying on something like a public vote whether or not we should accept ipg in the hof would be a farce. i have stated several times and brought up objective arguments that it is plain impossible to distinguish about the impact glitches have on the scoring game we al play. as there is no instant noskill 1million points glitch so far i dont see any reasoning to change how the game has been played for ages now. i understand your concern that such a thing could happen in the future but for now i only see one way to deal with it: ban all glitches from the hall of fame or none. this reasoning has been explained a lot. as glitches are (even though they are part of the game) still an unintended feature i would feel it would be simply wrong to ban such a minor discovery the ipg is and let other evenly unintended things in the game.

additionally, and that is my main point, im totally convinced that for to-be-discovered-glitches that are totally out of the picture and also MGs discovery, everyone contributing to the community and everyone who is willing to preserve the game that is rayman 3 would agree to not use it because i feel like disregarding all the heated discussion between several members the intentions we have are all the same.
in this context i want to encourage absolutely EVERYONE who is or is planning to contribute to this thread to TRY OUT the ipg and to beat the score of dtucc. if you have done this and you still consider the ipg to be banned because you feel like it destroys the spirit of this game i am pretty sure we would stop to call you narrow-minded (because thats exactly my feeling towards several recent posts in this thread in particular the one by jona). also, im pretty sure we would agree on the fact that for non-top10 players the ipg is barely more than a x2 modification of their score in one single part of a level if they are even able to obtain it. if one is in need of such a score boost when they cant reach a top score without it i would say it is in their own interest to think about why they are even playing the game. they will still never come close to the maximum in totl and i would honestly not even care.

edit: i want to add thtat even though i have no clue about this supposedly second community that is "the germans" in their secret forum i find it quite ridiculous to whine about the closure of their scoring thread. had they simply discussed their discoveries through skype you wouldnt even have noticed. and honestly i would have done the same because competition is fun.

[timoo]

I came here yesterday, for the first time in almost two years, to discuss the wonderful game that is R3. Now, I have to say, I'm really disappointed in RPC and its narrowmindedness. After years of stagnation, R3 has finally undergone a change and this is the way you react? You remind me of the Catholic Church after it was discovered that the Earth was not the center of the universe – trying to deny the truth and fit everything into your antiquated way of thinking (therefore your absurd separate HoF suggestion and essentially branding IPG-users as abnormal).

see potato some RPC members agree with you so why insult all of us?

[Sajiki]

i actually have a scoring-related question: im doing hh part 3 at the moment. for some reason every third try or so the last hoodlum who is guarding the switch on the platform is not there. that is annoying as fuck. is there any way i kill him by accident or is it just some sort of rng which makes him disappear or appear randomly? it is so damn annoying to do the whole combo and then find out the last part is simply despawned.

[sfn42]

@timoo: With regards to the post you quoted, I would like to apologize for that. The generalization was stupid and uncalled for. I was frustrated by a very vocal minority and a lack of different opinions, which lead me to believe that theirs was the general stance on this issue within this community. Thankfully, I was proven wrong by raymancool and other people since then.

I could honestly quote Sajiki's recent post word for word. To me, that has been one of the best contributions so far.

With regards to MandM, it is obvious that he doesn't understand the meaning of the word 'objective' from his most recent post. I find it hilarious that he accuses me of trying to further my standing in the HoF, considering that my HoF-score has been exactly the same since 2009 and that removing the IPG-users would actually improve my ranking. If I wanted to improve my standing in the HoF, I would, you know, actually play the game and improve my score.

@Sajiki: It's been a long, long time since I played that, but I think I can remember that, if you actually were too fast on the way from the previous Hoodmonger to the one near the switch, it didn't appear. Ultimately, it's a matter of getting the timing right. Others may know more about this, though, since I haven't played HH in many years and forgot a ton of details about it.

[timoo]

@timoo: With regards to the post you quoted, I would like to apologize for that. The generalization was stupid and uncalled for. I was frustrated by a very vocal minority and a lack of different opinions, which lead me to believe that theirs was the general stance on this issue within this community. Thankfully, I was proven wrong by raymancool and other people since then.

Apology accepted, sfn.
This topic seems to have narrowly escaped a boon avalanche.

[Adsolution]

Conclusion reached: None
Reason: Failure to even enter into the preliminary stages of the correct debate

[Cut]

i actually have a scoring-related question: im doing hh part 3 at the moment. for some reason every third try or so the last hoodlum who is guarding the switch on the platform is not there. that is annoying as fuck. is there any way i kill him by accident or is it just some sort of rng which makes him disappear or appear randomly? it is so damn annoying to do the whole combo and then find out the last part is simply despawned.

it's a good technique to simultaneously fire the fist to kill the penultimate hoodlum and jump to his platform. every hoodlum has a spawning-trigger-zone which is activated when the previous hoodlum is killed. if you kill the hoodlum too late, then you will be already out of this zone and the next hoodlum will not appear. you will notice that the penultimate hoodlum is the only one you usualy kill in the air, due to the long distance to the next elements, but this problem could theoretically appear on every hoodlum in this combo if you would kill them the same way.

[MandM81]

With regards to MandM, it is obvious that he doesn't understand the meaning of the word 'objective' from his most recent post. I find it hilarious that he accuses me of trying to further my standing in the HoF, considering that my HoF-score has been exactly the same since 2009 and that removing the IPG-users would actually improve my ranking. If I wanted to improve my standing in the HoF, I would, you know, actually play the game and improve my score.

And you don't seem to understand the meaning of the word "you". Anyway, a good advice, please stop insinuating everyone who doesn't agree with you is an idiot.

[Sajiki]

i actually have a scoring-related question: im doing hh part 3 at the moment. for some reason every third try or so the last hoodlum who is guarding the switch on the platform is not there. that is annoying as fuck. is there any way i kill him by accident or is it just some sort of rng which makes him disappear or appear randomly? it is so damn annoying to do the whole combo and then find out the last part is simply despawned.

it's a good technique to simultaneously fire the fist to kill the penultimate hoodlum and jump to his platform. every hoodlum has a spawning-trigger-zone which is activated when the previous hoodlum is killed. if you kill the hoodlum too late, then you will be already out of this zone and the next hoodlum will not appear. you will notice that the penultimate hoodlum is the only one you usualy kill in the air, due to the long distance to the next elements, but this problem could theoretically appear on every hoodlum in this combo if you would kill them the same way.

i usually lose my combo because of the distance to the following gems if i do not wait a bit when killing the one before the last. so do i have to kill him before i enter his platform or what are you trying to say?
additionally i tend to lose the hoodboom combo because he hits me in the air and i fall down again. this happens as well when i get myself intentionally hit before i start collecting the gems. if i try to dodge the shots in the air i either dont reach the platform or the combo runs out. any tips for that? im so unconsistent at both of them. god.. hh is really not my favorite level.

[Cut]

i actually have a scoring-related question: im doing hh part 3 at the moment. for some reason every third try or so the last hoodlum who is guarding the switch on the platform is not there. that is annoying as fuck. is there any way i kill him by accident or is it just some sort of rng which makes him disappear or appear randomly? it is so damn annoying to do the whole combo and then find out the last part is simply despawned.

it's a good technique to simultaneously fire the fist to kill the penultimate hoodlum and jump to his platform. every hoodlum has a spawning-trigger-zone which is activated when the previous hoodlum is killed. if you kill the hoodlum too late, then you will be already out of this zone and the next hoodlum will not appear. you will notice that the penultimate hoodlum is the only one you usualy kill in the air, due to the long distance to the next elements, but this problem could theoretically appear on every hoodlum in this combo if you would kill them the same way.

i usually lose my combo because of the distance to the following gems if i do not wait a bit when killing the one before the last. so do i have to kill him before i enter his platform or what are you trying to say?
additionally i tend to lose the hoodboom combo because he hits me in the air and i fall down again. this happens as well when i get myself intentionally hit before i start collecting the gems. if i try to dodge the shots in the air i either dont reach the platform or the combo runs out. any tips for that? im so unconsistent at both of them. god.. hh is really not my favorite level.

yeah, you have to fire the deadly fist exactly at the moment when you are leaving your platform with your feet. press shoot and jump simultaneously. the combo time until the yellow gems is really short, but this is my most successfull technique. as for the hoodbomber, try to do a slight left-curve. tip left-arrow 4 to 6 times shortly while you are helicoptering to his platform.

[Sajiki]

With regards to MandM, it is obvious that he doesn't understand the meaning of the word 'objective' from his most recent post. I find it hilarious that he accuses me of trying to further my standing in the HoF, considering that my HoF-score has been exactly the same since 2009 and that removing the IPG-users would actually improve my ranking. If I wanted to improve my standing in the HoF, I would, you know, actually play the game and improve my score.

And you don't seem to understand the meaning of the word "you". Anyway, a good advice, please stop insinuating everyone who doesn't agree with you is an idiot.

@sfn: [...] You blocked access to your forum for “competitive reasons”, which is what it is. But it’s a symptom of a gaming culture you, Cut, MG and CC represent. A culture that I hope will not spread in RPC. You are so hell-bent on improving your positions in HoF that you will use any means in your power to do so, even if it means using dubious, game-changing glitches or other shortcuts.

i would think the word "you" in these sentences directly refers to sfn.

additionally i want to add that you call the people using the one glitch that you dont like dubious and ruthless (as they use any means).
so, are you dubious because you tried BOM part 3 until the hoodlum survived or because you got triple razoff?

and thanks for the hints cut i will try them out later. im too frustrated for today..