Rayman 3 scores

[OCG]

You are really disrespectful to Ad you know that? There is no need for that.

[timoo]

there are actually lots of things that i care more about. like the second season of gilmore girls. and the love life of justin bieber. after how you behaved in this thread youre not even worth that i constantly answer to your posts to be honest. as ive said before, sadly, theres no measure to ignore mods because i would have done that weeks ago.

DORK DORK DORK !

[sfn42]

You are really disrespectful to Ad you know that? There is no need for that.

As he seems to be an illiterate and overly-arrogant asshole that over-estimates his worth on the forum in general, I'm not sure he understands that.

Oh, I get it now. It's normal here to just call people assholes. But saying that somebody is contributing nothing to this discussion is considered the worst insult ever. Got it.

[Adsolution]

How about 'Narrow-minded', 'Egotistical', 'Infantile' and 'Pathetic'? These are fancy words that all equate to (or in context are worse than) being called an asshole. Is the difference that the four prior insults are not insults, but an insinuation of fact? Where is the line drawn, and what are their distinguishing traits?

[sfn42]

You're seriously arguing that calling someone "narrowminded" is a worse insult than calling someone an "asshole"? Wow .

[Adsolution]

Ah, so you admit that they're insults!

Also, I ordered that list from what I perceived to be the least to the most insulting, so I'd love (I mean hate) to hear someone attempt to distance calling someone 'pathetic' from calling someone an 'asshole'.

[rolesfamily]

So where are we at with this debate?

In my mind it comes down to this solution:

All scores that have used glitches/cheats which are submitted to the HOF should be declared in the thread. Then in the actual list of scores in the HOF should have a side note which says (USED IPG) or something like that.

Maybe there should be an exception rule. If you score that you submit is in the top 10 you should be challenged on how you did the increase.

Because you guys who do it without the glitches know the limitations of the levels, and if people can't explain how they scored more then it'll be obvious that they IPG'd (or something like that).

[#Rubber mark#]

I'll be the first one to admit that quite a few of my comments were over the top and insulting and really not conducive to cooperation (in fact, I have apologized for some of them and I'll apologize again if anyone considered anything a personal insult, because that really was never my intention), but to absolve you side of all responsibility when you're just as guilty of this discussion escalating, is just not okay.

Drop it man, I have no opinion on the subject but you and your friends' posts reek of arrogance. How can you call Adsolution a troll after seeing Cut's childish attempts to mock his opponents in almost every single post? How can you justify your disdainful reply to Xenon, who is probably with Hunch the most respected member of this community, after he expressed his pleasure at your return and praised the quality of your messages?

Before you complain about getting no respect, start by showing some.

Interesting potato he says nothing but he decides of everything

Hunch is the boss but he obeys Canard WC and Comment ?

[Xenon]

i feel like regardless of the outcome of the vote, this argument has destroyed something which will never come back. the scoring community is tiny. we should unite because of the game we love and we should all ask ourselves why we are even participating in this discussion. even though i dont really feel like being part of a community that has mods like this one (best thing is you cant even ignore mods yo) i think there are great advantages it brings for all of us. im enjoying the inspiration that your game guide on page one brings me everytime im playing a level, mandm!
perhaps being second or third can be acceptable to some of you.
perhaps the past can be buried and left out of this topic by others.

if we close this topic and we get a consensus, will the losing side of the discussion simply leave the community and never come back because youre bitter or will you start to share your knowledge, compete in a reasonable way and actually have fun again? that is the question that >I< ask you, top players. what are you willing to sacrifice for the sake of being in the right?

You're being very pessimistic Sajiki. On the contrary I believe that the reason for this extensive debate is because the issue is so important to the scoring community, and each side is positing their own views about the development of the game and the HOF. And I think that's a testament to the strength and durability of this community.

Sure, thing's are going to change, there's no doubt about that. And one shoe will not fit all. But I think we're old enough and mature enough to overcome this issue, just like we have done in the past over previous (albeit smaller) disagreements. Just have faith and be patient while we deliberate over the best possible solution.

To answer your question, I am actually willing to sacrifice quite a lot, and my own suggestion reflects this. I am willing to move to a reasonable compromising position, which really is far more than can be said for some from TSF.

if you would consider their position for just a moment you would perhaps see that i, being part of the "other side" of the discussing parties and probably they too, feel the EXACT same way about mandm. as i dont accept his arguments by my values i find some of his phrases just highly highly offensive and just plain disrepectful. there was a post by sfn several pages ago where he showed that everything mandm wrote had a negative connotation. additionally him ignoring like 80% of my posts where i explained every piece of reasoning i have and just replying on the things that fit him in his argumentation mean to me he.. yeah .. IS narrow-minded and infantile. but that doesnt mean anything right? we dont accept your arguments and you dont accept ours, i think we all got the gist. so where does this lead us?

I wasn't referring to you (nor any other English users who oppose the moderation of the IPG); I was referring to TSF specifically. Your contributions, as an impartial member, are very valuable to the thread and I've read and considered them all. However, the way TSF constantly complained about MandM's conduct in this thread struck me as quite a hypocritical move, and that's what I was referring to.

To expect us to release everything after constantly discrediting us and diminishing our accomplishments is at best naive and at worst arrogant. Cooperation is a two way street. Maybe you should take a minute to think about what your side has actually done to get such cooperation.

I wasn't expecting you to, not really. But there's nothing wrong with requesting. And frankly you shouldn't be moaning about receiving such requests, after revealing the IPG bombshell. That doesn't mean you have a duty to reveal anything; it just means you aren't really in a position to moan about any suspicions or questions people might be holding about the legitimacy of improvements.

As for Ad, the complaint was brought to the mod forum, where it's been made clear that he regrets the decisions he took to swear and insult at you. I would like to apologise on behalf of the mod team for truly uncharacteristic behaviour, but I'd also like to request that people at the top of this page stop talking about Ad's contributions here.

EDIT: How about this suggestion: We make a column in the HoF for every glitch or glitch category. A column for launching glitches, a column for the Razoff glitch, a column for the IPG, a column for black lums glitches, a column for superjumps etc. That would increase transparency of the HoF without ostracizing or branding any players.

Glitch categories is an interesting idea. It's certainly messy but I won't say I couldn't live with it. Thank you for bringing a fourth suggestion to our attention.

Does anyone else have any opinions about this?

In my mind it comes down to this solution:

All scores that have used glitches/cheats which are submitted to the HOF should be declared in the thread. Then in the actual list of scores in the HOF should have a side note which says (USED IPG) or something like that.

Maybe there should be an exception rule. If you score that you submit is in the top 10 you should be challenged on how you did the increase.

Because you guys who do it without the glitches know the limitations of the levels, and if people can't explain how they scored more then it'll be obvious that they IPG'd (or something like that).

The great problem with the game is the fact that it's full og glitches, and that almost every player that's made a post on this forum has used one, somewhere in their gameplay.

The thing is that some glitches are bigger and more controversial than others, and require attention (at least) but it's difficult to know where to draw the line.

--

Finally: will people please stop using this thread to throw slanderous remarks around? If you don't like the way someone is being, then respond to their posts intelligently instead of mudslinging mindless insults.

[Cut]

just like we have done in the past over previous (albeit smaller) disagreements

We did not overcome this disagreements until today, this makes me rather more pessimistic.

To answer your question, I am actually willing to sacrifice quite a lot, and my own suggestion reflects this. I am willing to move to a reasonable compromising position, which really is far more than can be said for some from TSF.

After some trolling the troll and raging yesterday I opened myself for a comprimse in my last post.

However, the way TSF constantly complained about MandM's conduct in this thread struck me as quite a hypocritical move, and that's what I was referring to.

In the end nobody knows who actually began with the idiocy, it also is not important anymore who was it. So I think it would be the best if we put this now behind us.

Glitch categories is an interesting idea. It's certainly messy but I won't say I couldn't live with it. Thank you for bringing a fourth suggestion to our attention.
Does anyone else have any opinions about this?

100% agree.

Finally: will people please stop using this thread to throw slanderous remarks around? If you don't like the way someone is being, then respond to their posts intelligently instead of mudslinging mindless insults.

For me the last days were the final straw. I remember myself being friendly and factual when I got in the discussion, and I'm sure I can go back to this but the last posts were a bit much and I need a basis for being friendly and factual which was not given anymore (I hope you can understand what I mean).

[Adsolution]

One more thing:

@sfn: I must've glanced over using the literal phrase, but yes, I do obviously apologise for calling you an asshole. From my perspective I already made this pretty clear though: the phrase 'on occasion' refers to multiple instances, and while I thought that left little room for misinterpretation, I suppose that wasn't so.

[MandM81]

In my mind it comes down to this solution:

All scores that have used glitches/cheats which are submitted to the HOF should be declared in the thread. Then in the actual list of scores in the HOF should have a side note which says (USED IPG) or something like that.

Maybe there should be an exception rule. If you score that you submit is in the top 10 you should be challenged on how you did the increase.

Because you guys who do it without the glitches know the limitations of the levels, and if people can't explain how they scored more then it'll be obvious that they IPG'd (or something like that).

Works for me.

How about this suggestion: We make a column in the HoF for every glitch or glitch category. A column for launching glitches, a column for the Razoff glitch, a column for the IPG, a column for black lums glitches, a column for superjumps etc. That would increase transparency of the HoF without ostracizing or branding any players.

Thanks for the constructive suggestion. I'm very pleased to see you are ready to categorize all glitches and thus making them public for anyone to use. It could be a way to move forward and an important step in reaching a solution.

I suggest we for each category you mention give information about how to trigger the particular glitch and where it can be found and used in the game. A video would be preferable. The following is an incomplete list, so there's some work to be done.

The launching glitches: Several videos exist, including SBTC part 1 and 3, rolling on Pigs etc. More can be made by request.
The Razoff glitch: Videos exist for two and three hits. I'm not sure about four hits, but anyone is welcome to make a video of that during the long winter evenings.
The IPG: Videos exist for TOTL part 2 and LOTLD part 2. New areas where this can be triggered should be posted when discovered.
The Black Lums glitches: Several videos exist, including DOTK part 7, DOTK part 8 and HH part 2.
The superjump: We have yet to see where this is used for scoring purposes. Some examples are shown in the speedrunner videos.
The superglide: We have yet to see where this is used for scoring purposes. Some examples are shown in the speedrunner videos.
The CF glitch: It has been announced and we are waiting for details about where and how it can be triggered. A video would be nice.
The TOTL part 1 glitches: They haven't been confirmed and their existence denied, but like a black hole is detected by its influence on its surroundings, so are glitches often detected by their influence on the score. The nature and category of these glitches are unknown. Videos would be nice.

Let's fill out the blanks and take it from there.

[Cut]

It could be a way to move forward and an important step in reaching a solution.

We all would be satisfied with this and as it seems we're on a good way to finally find the solution, we need you to be commited on this solution to go on here. When you like it and would be satisfied too, then please tell us.

The superglide: We have yet to see where this is used for scoring purposes. Some examples are shown in the speedrunner videos.

We DTUCC, sfn, MountainGoat, Sajiki and me agreed on NOT using the superglide due to it's impossibility on PC although we now at least one place where it would be useful for scoring. I would appreciate if everyone here could go this way to take care about platform-differences for the first time in the Rayman-3-era.

I would like to add the Razoff-Dungeon-Glitch to your list. Also I would prefer to summarize similar glitches to one category to not make the HoF burst at its seams, that means Launching Glitches in general are one category, same for Black-Lums-Glitches etc.

[sfn42]

To expect us to release everything after constantly discrediting us and diminishing our accomplishments is at best naive and at worst arrogant. Cooperation is a two way street. Maybe you should take a minute to think about what your side has actually done to get such cooperation.

I wasn't expecting you to, not really. But there's nothing wrong with requesting. And frankly you shouldn't be moaning about receiving such requests, after revealing the IPG bombshell. That doesn't mean you have a duty to reveal anything; it just means you aren't really in a position to moan about any suspicions or questions people might be holding about the legitimacy of improvements.

There isn't. There was nothing wrong with your initial request and there was nothing wrong with asking us again when we failed to respond (and I want to repeat that that was just an oversight). If I gave you that impression, then I apologize. What I was referring to, were the constant demands (in particular by MandM) after we had explained that CF wasn't about the IPB or any similar glitches that could be viewed as controversial and that, therefore, we don't want to talk about it, before the IPG-issue had been resolved. That we were portrayed as skilless glitch-abusers, almost like cheaters, in some of those demands rubbed me (and I guess also Cut, although I can't speak for him) the wrong way.

As for Ad, the complaint was brought to the mod forum, where it's been made clear that he regrets the decisions he took to swear and insult at you. I would like to apologise on behalf of the mod team for truly uncharacteristic behaviour, but I'd also like to request that people at the top of this page stop talking about Ad's contributions here.

Thank you! The reason I even brought that up again, was that I had the impression it was swept under the rug. None of us can see what happens in the mod forum and it was not acknowledged at all in the public part, except for the deletion of the offensive passage. Also, Adsolution's next few posts really didn't help the matter. That gave me and, I guess, also others the impression that the issue was not treated professionally. I'm glad to see that that impression was wrong.

@Adsolution: Thank you. And I apologize for calling you narrowminded. That was a stupid generalization based on just a few posts I had read from you. Hopefully, we can move on now, to discuss the issue at hand.

In my mind it comes down to this solution:

All scores that have used glitches/cheats which are submitted to the HOF should be declared in the thread. Then in the actual list of scores in the HOF should have a side note which says (USED IPG) or something like that.

Maybe there should be an exception rule. If you score that you submit is in the top 10 you should be challenged on how you did the increase.

Because you guys who do it without the glitches know the limitations of the levels, and if people can't explain how they scored more then it'll be obvious that they IPG'd (or something like that).

It's probably a bit more difficile than that. At some point, we just have to trust each other. The days that everyone reveals everything are long over (and that's not a criticism, this is just the way the game has developed) and such a demand of proof, such a challenge, as you call it, would be counterproductive in my opinion because it really doesn't foster trust in the community. I agree that all glitches should be marked in the HoF, equally, at least for those players who are still active in the community, as I suggested in my previous post (even though, I must say, CC's suggestion is much more elegant than mine), but we still need to trust each other that the scores we got were achieved in a legitimate way (and so far, none of the people here have given any reason to doubt their achievements, in my opinion). Sure, if somebody comes out of nowhere with some uber score, we'd probably be sceptical (and rightfully so) but, fortunately, that has never happened. If it does happen, we can decide what to do, then. However, I don't think a system that is built on challenges and demands is the right way to go.

[GOT4N]

Can I just fuck you all by doing a max score TAS xD ?

[rolesfamily]

Xenon:

What's an OG glitch? Sorry I'm not totally with it on the lingo here - I think the line should be drawn at the top 10. Because that's when it's getting pretty serious in terms of scoring. Otherwise who really cares if someone did a score of like 300k with a few glitches? - That wouldn't affect the HOF. Whereas if someone ranks 3rd using cheats(or whatever) then that's a different matter altogether.

Mand:

Thanks man, glad to hear you're on board! And you're one of THE top scorers!

sfn:

The nature of competitive scoring is bound to result in lack of trust among players. When you're dealing with the top 10 scores, that's when the player is under the most scrutiny. If they are challenged about their increase and give their answers explaining how, that's where the trust comes in. We have to trust that their answers are legit. We only stop trusting people when they're shady about how they achieved it.

Perhaps something needs to change in our attitudes towards glitches to achieve scores. It shouldn't be seen as a bad thing that people should feel they have to hide, it should be embraced but labeled so everyone knows the how the score was achieved.

[sfn42]

sfn:

The nature of competitive scoring is bound to result in lack of trust among players. When you're dealing with the top 10 scores, that's when the player is under the most scrutiny. If they are challenged about their increase and give their answers explaining how, that's where the trust comes in. We have to trust that their answers are legit. We only stop trusting people when they're shady about how they achieved it.

It's hard to separate that, though. When someone doesn't trust a score that was put into the HoF, it is unlikely, imo, that that person is gonna trust the word of the person who put the answer in the HoF. We've always had a high level of trust among the top players, competition or not and I think that's what we should base the system around, this kind of trust, we should be careful that we don't lose that trust.

I definitely agree with you that glitches should be seen as something positive. That's always been my view as well and I had the impression that that was the consensus view of the community, which is why I was so baffled (and still am) by the initial reactions to the IPG.

I don't agree with you that the top 10 should be treated differently (even though, I agree that they are more likely to face scrutiny). With regards to the suggestion by me, that was then elaborated by CC and MandM, the goal is transparency with regards to what types of glitches were used and that should happen from top to bottom. Sure, there are a ton of people in the HoF who have left long ago, but those everywhere from top to bottom and we can't do anything about it, either way. I just don't think there's much of a point to this suggestion, if only 5 players or so get the tooltip CC suggested. It should be something that affects the whole community to really increase transparency and not just a select few.

[rolesfamily]

sfn:

The nature of competitive scoring is bound to result in lack of trust among players. When you're dealing with the top 10 scores, that's when the player is under the most scrutiny. If they are challenged about their increase and give their answers explaining how, that's where the trust comes in. We have to trust that their answers are legit. We only stop trusting people when they're shady about how they achieved it.

It's hard to separate that, though. When someone doesn't trust a score that was put into the HoF, it is unlikely, imo, that that person is gonna trust the word of the person who put the answer in the HoF. We've always had a high level of trust among the top players, competition or not and I think that's what we should base the system around, this kind of trust, we should be careful that we don't lose that trust.

I definitely agree with you that glitches should be seen as something positive. That's always been my view as well and I had the impression that that was the consensus view of the community, which is why I was so baffled (and still am) by the initial reactions to the IPG.

I don't agree with you that the top 10 should be treated differently (even though, I agree that they are more likely to face scrutiny). With regards to the suggestion by me, that was then elaborated by CC and MandM, the goal is transparency with regards to what types of glitches were used and that should happen from top to bottom. Sure, there are a ton of people in the HoF who have left long ago, but those everywhere from top to bottom and we can't do anything about it, either way. I just don't think there's much of a point to this suggestion, if only 5 players or so get the tooltip CC suggested. It should be something that affects the whole community to really increase transparency and not just a select few.

The issue of trust started when someone refused to share how they managed to achieve the high score. (I can't remember who now off the top of my head). - 2 reasons for that 1 - they don't want to share their competitive edge - 2 - they used some kind of cheat/glitch.

But I see that the top 10 are the ones that really are significant to competitive scoring, that's where you get the title 'best in the world' etc. That's where the competition is going to be at it's fiercest.

Well perhaps there should be 2 separate hall of fames? One for non-glitches/cheats and the other for standard gameplay.

If you're worried about old scores that have been submitted by people who are no longer active here, you could always start the HOF from a fresh (probably not going to be a popular idea) so you ensure there's no entries that don't meet the new criteria.

It's a difficult topic to have a solution to. Somebody is going to have to compromise somewhere, or otherwise they'll have to be drastic action to make it a level playing field.

[DTUCC]

(actually, as i was wrting this post, i came up with this idea, haha)
this is a pretty crazy idea, but if we can somehow implement this into the HoF, it seems like a pretty logical compromise to me. Now, don't be mad at me if this is somehow completely unrealistic (i have quite literally no understanding of programming), but is it possible to add a column named "glitches used?" that can either have a checkmark or not? and if you move your cursor over said checkmark, it'll show the glitches the specific player used to achieve his score in a tooltip.

that way, you wouldn't just brand 3 specific players for the use of a single glitch some people don't like, but rather, you mark all the players and show which specific glitches they used. you could add a line above the HoF saying "move your cursor over the checkmark to see the glitches used by a specific player" of something along those lines.

now, i know that might be pretty hard to implement, but if we find some people willing to moderate the HoF that way and take the actions necessary to realise that, it'll be a fair compromise, containing the use of IPG but without differentiating it from other glitches in the game. all we need for this is someone able to implement it into the HoF as well as an outline of all the glitches.

so, since people seem to have missed this addition to sfn's suggestions (which indeed is just a little more practical in terms of aesthetics), i'd like to hear people's standings on this. it's basically the same thing mandm suggested, but for all the glitches used. i'd also still like to see a short statement from hunchman whether the things we are discussing here are even possible. if none of this is achievable, we need to move on soon instead of discussion for weeks again.

regarding rolesfamily's suggestions, i understand the idea behind it, but it's going to straight up change the way new combos have been handled during the past years. we're talking about combos that have been held back for as much as 6 years, you can't just force people to reveal them in an act of modifying the HoF. maybe i misunderstand you here, though, so how do you vision people's explanations for how they achieved their top 10 score?

furthermore, if you want to seperate the HoF between glitch/glitchless, you'll have to realise you might as well just stamp everyone from top to bottom spot. we've been using glitches for years, it's just this one particular glitch some people choose not to implement into their games, which is perfectly understandable. therefore, i find it a lot more practical to mark each player individually and metion which glitches they chose to use and which they didn't. that way, we won't treat the IPG different from all the other glitches, but we'll treat each individual glitch differently without the need of long debates over each one that will come up in the future.

i'd love to hear opinions on the idea.

[Hunchman801]

From a technical point of view, pretty much anything can be achieved. However, I have no idea when we will be able to implement such changes.