Rayman 3 scores

[MandM81]

It seems to be used in almost all levels by now. This IPG or PCM is triggered in SBTC part 2. I wonder how that was done?

Most (all?) PCMs seem to be triggered at the beginning of a part. Can the PCM be triggered after a cutscene?

I'm still hoping someday to have an answer to a most pertinent question about R3: What happens if you hit a Knaaren with a fully charged HMF?

[RibShark]

PCM's are all triggered at the beginning of a part by pressing the screenshot button quickly after the loading screen disappears.

[Xenon]

What does PCM even stand for?

If these glitches are limited to certain platforms anyway, I'd say that's a pretty good reason to forbid their presence in the HOF (think of it as a cherry on the top sort of thing).

With each new discovery, the new gameplay continues to bear smaller resemblance to the score system I (and many others) valued before all of this. Can we take the increasingly frequent absences of the TSF members as a concession from them that their hyperliberal, pro-IPG position no longer stands to reason in this debate?

Watching the videos in the above posts actually makes me feel depressed. Depressed that the scoring in this game has taken this turn, and depressed that a large proportion of the community embraces this new kind of gameplay. This isn't one glitch we're talking about anymore; it's an entirely new rule book that applies to every level in the game and probably most parts of levels.

This isn't about maximum scores. It's not even about scoring high. It's about the actual gameplay. Let's face it: it's becoming obvious that the IPG (and other similar/associated glitches) will nullify >75% of everything written on the first page of this thread. Why would a player try a difficult combo when he can simply jump through a wall or double his points by using an infinite Powerup, using half the effort? If that's the general position of the forum, then so be it, but i certainly ain't gonna sacrifice the former gemeplay for the sake of an extra 10'000 points and a bit of activity in this thread, and it ain't going to be a game I'll be following for too much longer if we continue down this path.

[Adsolution]

What does PCM even stand for?

I was wondering the same thing. Point-Cumulation Mofo?

This isn't about maximum scores. It's not even about scoring high. It's about the actual gameplay.

I completely agree, but would most of the TSF?

The reason I agree is because competing in an ever-going contest to see who can use the provided rules to the best of their ability is a fair challenge, where everyone is equal, and that's what makes it fun. I don't think it's fun to partake in a contest where my efforts are rendered entirely pointless because the rules and gameplay aren't even remotely similar to what they once were back when I did compete, and the scores of this entirely new game can actually be rated on the same scoreboard as mine, shoving mine down lower. However, from the TSF point of view, maybe this contest all along has been about who can score the highest, breaking apart from what makes an ongoing contest an actual contest, leaving behind those who have retired long ago who may be more skilled than you.

With that (and the fact that it doesnt work on every version) in mind, I see IPG as entirely out-of the question, and I think the selection process for what glitches should be allowed should be very stingy.

[MandM81]

What does PCM even stand for?

It’s short for Playable Camera Mode and it is a way to trigger an IPG. It apparently works in each part shortly after the load screen disappears.

With each new discovery, the new gameplay continues to bear smaller resemblance to the score system I (and many others) valued before all of this. Can we take the increasingly frequent absences of the TSF members as a concession from them that their hyperliberal, pro-IPG position no longer stands to reason in this debate?

I wonder if we would have had such a relentless debate over the IPG if the TSF hadn’t resorted to self-help with regard to the HoF. We should have had this debate and settled the matter before the IPG became an integral part of their game. Hiding a glitch for so long has only created sharp fronts.

I believe we have made some progress in determining the extent of the IPG in R3. Since the revelation of the IPG in TOTL and subsequently in LOTLD months ago, we have found it in practically all parts of the game. Thus it has the potential of completely dominating the gameplay. That alone is a concern, but as it is heavily platform dependent as well, it has now become a glitch that should be banned in HoF. Maybe that has become clear to all by now and maybe the silence can be taken as a concession of that fact. Let's see...

This isn't about maximum scores. It's not even about scoring high. It's about the actual gameplay. Let's face it: it's becoming obvious that the IPG (and other similar/associated glitches) will nullify >75% of everything written on the first page of this thread. Why would a player try a difficult combo when he can simply jump through a wall or double his points by using an infinite Powerup, using half the effort?

I share your sentiments and I can’t see how the recent discoveries have any merit in the scoring game. The speedrunner guys are very active in finding new glitches. The most recent developments are only a day old: New discoveries.

According to this and other videos, it seems that it’s all about triggering glitches that put the game in a mode where the usual rules and boundaries are lifted. These glitches include the IPG (and thus the PCM) and the GW (glide walk). These glitches constitute a category of their own, which perhaps can be referred to as LMG (long mode glitch). Opposed to this one can also introduce a category SMG, short mode glitches. The SMG would include launching glitches, SJ and most other glitches we have known for years. The short mode refers to the timeframe in which the mode is active after being triggered. A launching glitch or a SJ (superjump) is active a fraction of a second after being triggered where after the normal rules of the game apply.

The IPG and the GW are active for a very long time indeed after being triggered, several minutes in some cases like TOTL part 2.

Isn’t the main problem in the scoring game the appearance of LMGs? As RibShark points out, all LMGs are platform dependent, so maybe the problem will sort itself out?

If that's the general position of the forum, then so be it, but i certainly ain't gonna sacrifice the former gemeplay for the sake of an extra 10'000 points and a bit of activity in this thread, and it ain't going to be a game I'll be following for too much longer if we continue down this path.

I’m not sure it’s the general position of the forum. There’s a very vocal group of players who have been using the IPG for about half a year, but other than that I detect only a few supporters.

I can understand why players find these new discoveries interesting. I do too. It’s really cool to watch a speedrunner video. But I’m sure the same players can see how the glitches used in a speedrunner context may not benefit the scoring game.

[MandM81]

I apologize for the double posting, but I had to split it in two to make it readable.

The reason I agree is because competing in an ever-going contest to see who can use the provided rules to the best of their ability is a fair challenge, where everyone is equal, and that's what makes it fun. I don't think it's fun to partake in a contest where my efforts are rendered entirely pointless because the rules and gameplay aren't even remotely similar to what they once were back when I did compete, and the scores of this entirely new game can actually be rated on the same scoreboard as mine, shoving mine down lower.

I agree that at the moment the HoF doesn’t reflect the results of a game where all players use the same set of rules. We will have to fix that.

With that (and the fact that it doesn’t work on every version) in mind, I see IPG as entirely out-of the question, and I think the selection process for what glitches should be allowed should be very stingy.

One thing we all have agreed on, TSF included, is that a glitch must work on all platforms to be accepted into the game (and thus the HoF). And it turns out the IPG is in fact platform dependent, so the conclusion should be straight forward.

However, from the TSF point of view, maybe this contest all along has been about who can score the highest, breaking apart from what makes an ongoing contest an actual contest, leaving behind those who have retired long ago who may be more skilled than you.

Those who have retired have been left behind for many reasons. Progress has been made, also without the aid of game changing glitches. A tell-tale sign of a “scoring by all means available” mentality by the TSF has been the continuous effort of hiding glitches from the RPC. The IPG was not disclosed by the TSF but by a member who posted a speedrunner video. And we still haven’t been presented with the glitch they use in CF, despite the fact they have entered scores into the HoF using this glitch.

[DTUCC]

unfortunately, at the moment i'm lying in bed with influenza. i'll provide a more detailed response when i'm healthier.
quick question though, aren't you tired of repeating the same things over and over while there's nothing else going on here? Don't get me wrong, you're free to do whatever you want, but I've been told to stop doing that exact thing in the past. Maybe it gives you a better understanding though, of how we feel about this discussion, when you guys make the same "mistakes" we did.

"I’m not sure it’s the general position of the forum. There’s a very vocal group of players who have been using the IPG for about half a year, but other than that I detect only a few supporters."

people have been talking about represantative values earlier, while there are indeed not a lot supporters of the ipg, i believe there are even less who are against it, but as you guys said yourselves, we're not in the realm of represantative values right now.

also, who spread this rumour that the ipg doesn't work on all platforms? we've tested it for GC, PC and PS2, and we've seen a speedrunner do it on XBoX. I'm not sure about the camera mode as i haven't used it myself as of now.

with regards to glitch categories, I really like mandms suggestion about LMG's and SMG's. I guess we can look into that as soon as the list is out. when i'm healthy again i'll gladly provide the videos requested. give me that time though.

on a side note, Adsolution, you keep mentioning how glitches break the rules of the game, which is not supposed to happen. i never saw you mention launching glitches etc. though, which break the game's rules just as well. what is your position on those?

[Cut]

If these glitches are limited to certain platforms anyway, I'd say that's a pretty good reason to forbid their presence in the HOF (think of it as a cherry on the top sort of thing).

It's not that consequent when you think for instance about the Lums-Glitch in DOTK8/HH4 but if we want equality, we need the moment to start with, so I would agree on this when all Non-GC players agree on playing only GC-compatible combos at the 2nd Tribelle in FC4. The methods have to be only equal in points, not in routing.

Watching the videos in the above posts actually makes me feel depressed. Depressed that the scoring in this game has taken this turn, and depressed that a large proportion of the community embraces this new kind of gameplay. This isn't one glitch we're talking about anymore; it's an entirely new rule book that applies to every level in the game and probably most parts of levels.

That's the progress. This development is not new, the last "revolution" of discoveries is just way too long ago. I admit that the PCM is the most annoying shit-glitch I have ever seen in R3, but if it was available on GC, I could not see a reason to forbid it. Everyone is free to not use it, but then you can not expect to be first in the HoF. The snowboard is also the most annoying shit ever, but if you want the 111k, you just have to go through that and be patient. I remember that MandM took around 4 months to achieve 111k, so I'm not surprised that he wants to conserve this ultimate obstacle of SBTC, but we could have seen this coming when Jona (?) found the launching-glitch 2005 (?), I can't remember anyone protesting against that. Sometimes discoveries and development is shit, but even shit is able to be fair. And IPG for instance is absolutely fair.

This isn't about maximum scores. It's not even about scoring high. It's about the actual gameplay. Let's face it: it's becoming obvious that the IPG (and other similar/associated glitches) will nullify >75% of everything written on the first page of this thread. Why would a player try a difficult combo when he can simply jump through a wall or double his points by using an infinite Powerup, using half the effort?

Everything written on the first page nullifies >75% of Butterflocke's solution from 2003. Why should I try on difficult combos in SBTC when I can just use the snowboardtrick to break 100k? Because that's the point, TOTL has NOT become easier because 104.499 is NOT the maximum anymore, and achieving 116k makes TOTL to the hardest luck-unbased level ever. It's completely irrelevant how easy/hard it is to achieve 104.499 as it's completely irrelevant how easy it is to achieve 100k in SBTC. The frontier has moved upwards, and I would invite everyone of you to try on 116k in TOTL because this is a challenge with a huge level of difficulty and a challenge you never faced before, I'll give you my full guarantee. Yes, you have to deal with annyoing shit like flying through walls, but that's the new age. Rolling on pigs or flying through walls, both is completely absurd but one of it is new to you and the other one completely known. These things are the minor part of the "new" TOTL. And as far as no one of you every seriously tried on comboing TOTL part 2 with the IPG, I can't take any opionion about the change of the game due to the IPG in TOTL 2 serious or valid, because then you don't have the expertise to make a decision about this. We spent 4 months on the new TOTL, how many did you?

...

One serious question without hidden agenda or the intent to judge you based on the answer, I'm just highly interested: what are your level scores?

It’s short for Playable Camera Mode and it is a way to trigger an IPG. It apparently works in each part shortly after the load screen disappears.

It's not an or the IPG, there are technical differences and I don't mean the way of triggering, also the infinte powerup itselfs delivers some differences. I find this just important, on with the show.

I believe we have made some progress in determining the extent of the IPG in R3. Since the revelation of the IPG in TOTL and subsequently in LOTLD months ago, we have found it in practically all parts of the game. Thus it has the potential of completely dominating the gameplay. That alone is a concern, but as it is heavily platform dependent as well, it has now become a glitch that should be banned in HoF. Maybe that has become clear to all by now and maybe the silence can be taken as a concession of that fact. Let's see...

As every glitch in the past handicapped itself, the PCM also does, the crux is: you are practically not able to jump while doing combos, it's at least extremely limited and that's the main reason why I only see few places where this glitch could be potentially useful. We have to consider that, the PCM is not that OP than it seems on the first sight, it makes itself rather useless. And the fact that you can't do easy jumps and the First-person-mode is completely unavailable, the PCM is not the IPG and hase to be treated differently. My (or our?) attitude towards the IPG hasn't changed. I agree on HoF-icons telling that I used the IPG (if this is done consequently with all important glitches) and presenting every IPG found in the game, but this is already a good compromise from my side. I won't go any step further.

According to this and other videos, it seems that it’s all about triggering glitches that put the game in a mode where the usual rules and boundaries are lifted. These glitches include the IPG (and thus the PCM) and the GW (glide walk). These glitches constitute a category of their own, which perhaps can be referred to as LMG (long mode glitch). Opposed to this one can also introduce a category SMG, short mode glitches. The SMG would include launching glitches, SJ and most other glitches we have known for years. The short mode refers to the timeframe in which the mode is active after being triggered. A launching glitch or a SJ (superjump) is active a fraction of a second after being triggered where after the normal rules of the game apply.

When you take it consequently then glidewalk is already forbidden due to it's unavailability on PC
LMG and SMG, well. It's valid to differentiate glitches like this, but I would not give too much on this when we are going to decide on allowed or forbidden.

Isn’t the main problem in the scoring game the appearance of LMGs? As RibShark points out, all LMGs are platform dependent, so maybe the problem will sort itself out?

Actually it's funny because there never was a problem, but I know what you mean with it so it's okay. IPG is not platform-dependent. I'm happy about platform-differences finally get the adherence from the community but you have to understand that it has a negative connotation (does this match? German would be "fader Beigeschmack") to me that platform-differences suprisingly become relevant when they fit so good into your argumentation/your purpose and your DOTK and HH-scores are not resettable (funnily, on PC it would be possible thanks to CheatEngine^^). It's ok that we go this way now but I wanted to have this said.

I’m not sure it’s the general position of the forum. There’s a very vocal group of players who have been using the IPG for about half a year, but other than that I detect only a few supporters.

"few" is a relative numeral. As the community is small too, it doesn't fit very well here as we have 5 supporters in form of me, sfn, CC, MountainGoat and Sajiki.

I can understand why players find these new discoveries interesting. I do too. It’s really cool to watch a speedrunner video. But I’m sure the same players can see how the glitches used in a speedrunner context may not benefit the scoring game.

Call me blind but, no. I can't see, and you know why? Because I actually PLAYED the new TOTL, and I can't understand how you as an absolute lover of this game can reject this new challenge. It's like you disagree on replacing 1 ounce of gold with 1 bar of platinum because you don't like the colour of silver. Maybe were are just that totally different, but this can't be it. The new TOTL is fucking great, no one can tell me anything else. Sorry^^

I agree that at the moment the HoF doesn’t reflect the results of a game where all players use the same set of rules. We will have to fix that.

The main job of a rule is guaranteeing the fairness, the second is the interest/fun of a game. In case of the IPG, the current rules do their job perfectly. In case of GW and PCM, they don't. That's actually true. CC wanted to do some investigations about the PCM, maybe we know more about it when he is done (especially on the concerns about the platform-availability).

One thing we all have agreed on, TSF included, is that a glitch must work on all platforms to be accepted into the game (and thus the HoF). And it turns out the IPG is in fact platform dependent, so the conclusion should be straight forward.

Excatly this sentence gives me the negative connotation of your "platform-fairness"-attitude. To constitute IPG and PCM as equal is wrong on all levels, and I don't want to call you a hypocrite but it gives me the impression that your new attitude is just an alibi to push your interests. You never showed real interest on platform-equality (maybe because Xbox is the "Golden" platform of R3), why now?

Those who have retired have been left behind for many reasons. Progress has been made, also without the aid of game changing glitches. A tell-tale sign of a “scoring by all means available” mentality by the TSF has been the continuous effort of hiding glitches from the RPC. The IPG was not disclosed by the TSF but by a member who posted a speedrunner video. And we still haven’t been presented with the glitch they use in CF, despite the fact they have entered scores into the HoF using this glitch.

Every glitch is game-changig. Every glitch, the only expection is the giant-murphy-glitch in the main menu. As for the CF-glitch, I'm going to make a video.

EDIT: http://youtu.be/4NbJNnMmdFc
accidentaly on the wrong channel

[GOT4N]

God... Don't call them "lauching glitch" I'm the original founder of this glitch, and the community calls it rolling sj

[Adsolution]

also, who spread this rumour that the ipg doesn't work on all platforms? we've tested it for GC, PC and PS2, and we've seen a speedrunner do it on XBoX. I'm not sure about the camera mode as i haven't used it myself as of now.

PCM is platform-dependent, though given that it's technically an 'IPG', I just refer to it as that sometimes. I probably shouldn't, since the original IPG isn't platform-dependent, though the other reason I listed I think is plenty to also state my position on the IPG.

on a side note, Adsolution, you keep mentioning how glitches break the rules of the game, which is not supposed to happen. i never saw you mention launching glitches etc. though, which break the game's rules just as well. what is your position on those?

Given the nature of certain glitches, some perceptibly being less 'contrived' than others (PCM being the pinnacle of contrivance, for example), I'm sure most people would be far more welcoming to the launching glitches than to PCM. Personally, I'm against it in an area like DOTK, because it's just absurd, and doesn't require any extra skill to get the most out of it. I've never actually been able to successfully execute the snowboarding one myself, so I don't have as much of an opinion on that one, but I don't feel as strongly toward it as I do the rolling-jump.

One serious question without hidden agenda or the intent to judge you based on the answer, I'm just highly interested: what are your level scores?

I can't tell you exactly, since I haven't seen the GC memory card that had my file on it for quite a while now (it's on one of those many old ten-blockers, before I got my thousand-blocker), but my HoF score is 620950. Not as high as most people here, but it came with a lot of effort. Just not as much as the people who are in the 700-800k range!

I have however played around with some of these glitches more recently, but on the PC version. They didn't contribute to my HoF score.

[MandM81]

unfortunately, at the moment i'm lying in bed with influenza. i'll provide a more detailed response when i'm healthier.
quick question though, aren't you tired of repeating the same things over and over while there's nothing else going on here? Don't get me wrong, you're free to do whatever you want, but I've been told to stop doing that exact thing in the past. Maybe it gives you a better understanding though, of how we feel about this discussion, when you guys make the same "mistakes" we did.

I hope you get well soon.

Maybe we sound like a broken record to your ears, and I can understand why you would think so. The thing is, for me, or us, the situation looks different today than it did only a week ago. Realizing the IPG can be triggered in every level has been an eye opener. It seems an increasingly large part of the game can be played in an alternative mode and that raises some concern. That's basically what the recent posts have been about. What were merely theoretical concerns months ago about the extent of the IPG now seem to have become reality.

also, who spread this rumour that the ipg doesn't work on all platforms? we've tested it for GC, PC and PS2, and we've seen a speedrunner do it on XBoX. I'm not sure about the camera mode as i haven't used it myself as of now.

The PCM is and IPG. IPG stands for Infinite Powerup Glitch and the PCM is a glitch that provides infinite powerup, so by definiton the PCM is an IPG. As far as I understand, the IPGs in TOTL and LOTLD draw on different mechanisms when triggered. The PCM requires yet another mechanism, but it represents the same family of glitches, namely the IPGs.

However, I can vouch for the fact the TOTL IPG works for Xbox. I don't know about the others.

with regards to glitch categories, I really like mandms suggestion about LMG's and SMG's. I guess we can look into that as soon as the list is out. when i'm healthy again i'll gladly provide the videos requested. give me that time though.

Sure, let's get to work when you're up and running again.

[sfn42]

Some general remarks: I left to take some time to cool off and give others the chance to do so as well. I gotta say, though, you, RPC guys, have to stop playing the blame game and blaming us for everything. There are two sides in this argument and we are equally responsibly for it escalating. We have all said and done some stupid things throughout this argument and everyone has to take responsibility. You have to stop justifying your snide remarks or throwing old stuff around like the different gaming culture which is total nonsense or the hidden forum which has no bearing on the discussion at hand whatsoever. If we ever want to get to a solution, we have to move on from stuff like that.

About PCM: It's a totally different glitch from the classic IPG and we cannot make the mistake of throwing them together and treating them as the same. The only thing they really share is that they allow for a powerup to never end, which in reality is more of a side effect of both glitches than anything else. Besides that, they have different triggers, different restrictions and affect gameplay in different ways (Cut has addressed these issues). Personally, I would not have a problem if we ultimately decide to ban PCM if there are good reasons for it (primarily platform differences, but also if the jumping and camera restrictions do not prove to be as bad as Cut reported (I have not tested them myself). To find out if there are such reasons, we have to investigate this glitch and discuss our findings. That has nothing to do with IPG, though, as there are no good reasons for banning the latter (as we have discussed ad nauseum). Maybe we should stop calling the classic IPG 'IPG', though and find a name that better describes what it really is: a mix between in-game and cutscene.

@WeshKanapesh: Sorry to disappoint you, but you didn't discover the launching glitch. It has been around in the scoring community since 2003 and we have always called it that and we will keep doing so.

@Adsolution: We saw the IPG has a new and exciting change that enhanced the game. I guess that's the difference. We played with it because we enjoyed it and we enjoyed playing the game that way. Saying that you don't like the IPG is subjective and it's fine but it's on the same level as when we say we liked the IPG-gameplay. That doesn't make it unfair, though. The IPG can be used on all platforms and the maximum in TOTL is, based on our current understanding, the same on all platforms. Old technqiues becoming obsolete and new techniques making old maximum scores easier to get is a natural process and there are many examples in the history of R3 for that. Some even involve glitches. And those who have retired long ago will be pushed down the scoring list by the discovery of new gameplay techniques. That is a natural process and not unfair to anyone.

About the CF-glitch (which Cut has posted now): It was always our intention to post that but we wanted to get on the same page regarding general issues related to the treatment of glitches before we did that. 'Getting on the same page' never meant 'fully resolved', but rather to have some kind of plan on how to proceed. Maybe that caused some confusion. As you can see, it's nothing big but just a small trick that gives you a few extra points in combination with two launches.

With regards to the solution proposed by MandM:
I am not against it, but there are a set of conditions for me that has to be met by any possible solution:
- The classic IPG has to be allowed in the HoF.
- No players currently in the HoF are banned from the HoF.
- No decision about the acceptance and especially non-acceptance of a glitch can be made by one person or two people (that means no veto + the idea of representative samples).
- No spllitting of the HoF (there can be additional columns, though).
With regards to platform differences, we are on the same page for the most part. I agree that that is the best criterion to allow/ban future glitches. However, we should be careful because there are already platform differences in the HoF (black lums, green can in FC4) and if things of similar magnitude are found that favor one platform or the other (like getting 100 extra points for extra lums), we should discuss them individually and not pronounce an insta-ban.

[MandM81]

Actually it's funny because there never was a problem, but I know what you mean with it so it's okay. IPG is not platform-dependent. I'm happy about platform-differences finally get the adherence from the community but you have to understand that it has a negative connotation (does this match? German would be "fader Beigeschmack") to me that platform-differences suprisingly become relevant when they fit so good into your argumentation/your purpose and your DOTK and HH-scores are not resettable (funnily, on PC it would be possible thanks to CheatEngine^^). It's ok that we go this way now but I wanted to have this said.
...
Excatly this sentence gives me the negative connotation of your "platform-fairness"-attitude. To constitute IPG and PCM as equal is wrong on all levels, and I don't want to call you a hypocrite but it gives me the impression that your new attitude is just an alibi to push your interests. You never showed real interest on platform-equality (maybe because Xbox is the "Golden" platform of R3), why now?

I do not excel in any ad hoc arguments about platform fairness. As I have explained before, I lived comfortably for several years with the fact that PC players could get around 400 more points in DOTK than players on other platforms. It later turned around, but that's another story. And if you think of Xbox as the "golden platform", I know you never have played BOM on this platform. And there are other examples where the Xbox platform falls short on options.

Platform equality becomes a factor when you talk about thousands of extra points as opposed to the 100+ points in FC for GC.

As for PCM being a member of the IPG family, see previous post.

Every glitch is game-changing.

By game changing we mean glitches that changes the normal rules and boundaries of the game. An example is changing the range of a Powerup.

As for the CF-glitch, I'm going to make a video.

Thanks for posting the video. I can understand why you said at the time you found it by chance. I guess no-one would actively look for something like that and expect to be successful.

[Adsolution]

@Adsolution: We saw the IPG has a new and exciting change that enhanced the game. I guess that's the difference. We played with it because we enjoyed it and we enjoyed playing the game that way. Saying that you don't like the IPG is subjective and it's fine but it's on the same level as when we say we liked the IPG-gameplay. That doesn't make it unfair, though. The IPG can be used on all platforms and the maximum in TOTL is, based on our current understanding, the same on all platforms. Old technqiues becoming obsolete and new techniques making old maximum scores easier to get is a natural process and there are many examples in the history of R3 for that. Some even involve glitches. And those who have retired long ago will be pushed down the scoring list by the discovery of new gameplay techniques. That is a natural process and not unfair to anyone.

Indeed, that's an excellent way of describing that point of view, and it works, it just comes down to what objective people are seeking from the HoF. It's just a bother since both perspectives need to be squished into one HoF, but neither is wrong. I actually think it's pretty neat that the community is in charge of the Rayman 3 scoreboard, otherwise all usage of any kind of glitch would be condemned by the creators without discussion.

- No players currently in the HoF are banned from the HoF.
- No decision about the acceptance and especially non-acceptance of a glitch can be made by one person or two people (that means no veto + the idea of representative samples).
- No spllitting of the HoF (there can be additional columns, though).

Agreed on these (though, getting more than two people to vote on something seems like a give-in). I'm especially in support of additional columns, what kind of extra info did you have in mind?

I'm still not for letting in IPG, but again, that's just my own vote from my own viewpoint towards the competition aspect. Though, with that, I think it should, like everything else, be put under a vote. Even if we already have voted, it would be better to have it again along with everything else, so that the decision is a little more formal.

Should we do all the voting through a poll being added to this thread, or just state in a post? If the former, I (or Xenon) could manage that whenever it's to be done.

[Cut]

God... Don't call them "lauching glitch" I'm the original founder of this glitch, and the community calls it rolling sj

WTF, the technique of the "rolling superjump" is known since 2003 and there are like thousands of places where this can be done... not every useful glitch in the game is patented by the speedrunners^^

The PCM is and IPG. IPG stands for Infinite Powerup Glitch and the PCM is a glitch that provides infinite powerup, so by definiton the PCM is an IPG. As far as I understand, the IPGs in TOTL and LOTLD draw on different mechanisms when triggered. The PCM requires yet another mechanism, but it represents the same family of glitches, namely the IPGs.

It's like saying "The Razoff Glitchs allows to get the boss-points multiple times, so killing a boss with a Powerup is a Razoff-Glitch too". One effect of the PCM is infinite powerup, but that's just one chapter of the story. There are so many differences that it's just impossible to put these two glitches together. When the same thing is done, it's never quite the same.

Platform equality becomes a factor when you talk about thousands of extra points as opposed to the 100+ points in FC for GC.

Platform equality is a factor or it is not. You can't demand for strict rules about glitch usage on the one hand and then take up this inconsequent attitude. When the IPG was unknown, 100 points in the regions of 857k+ were more valuable than 10k points in the regions of 847k so points do not equal points.

And if you think of Xbox as the "golden platform", I know you never have played BOM on this platform. And there are other examples where the Xbox platform falls short on options.

Every platform has it's handicaps and Xbox has by far the least and I don't now any handicap which actually has influence on the possible maximum scores and there are many advantages (e.g. the jump-height) other platforms don't have. When we first misprized the power of the IPG in TOTL, we aimed for the Hoodflyer-Maximum in TOTL. Guess which platform has the most Hoodflyers and which the least? Sometimes it's just crazy. But let's not take up this endless discussion again.

I actually think it's pretty neat that the community is in charge of the Rayman 3 scoreboard, otherwise all usage of any kind of glitch would be condemned by the creators without discussion.

The creators already were in charge of the Rayman 3 scoreboard. Let's ask Nikra or Epona how these days were.

[MandM81]

It's like saying "The Razoff Glitchs allows to get the boss-points multiple times, so killing a boss with a Powerup is a Razoff-Glitch too". One effect of the PCM is infinite powerup, but that's just one chapter of the story. There are so many differences that it's just impossible to put these two glitches together. When the same thing is done, it's never quite the same.

Like I said, the PCM is an example of an IPG. The Razoff thing eludes me.

Platform equality is a factor or it is not. You can't demand for strict rules about glitch usage on the one hand and then take up this inconsequent attitude. When the IPG was unknown, 100 points in the regions of 857k+ were more valuable than 10k points in the regions of 847k so points do not equal points.

You’re on the road to nowhere with this kind of argumentation. The consensus in the scoring community has been a pragmatic attitude towards platform differences. My posts reflect that pragmatism. The basis for the consensus was the fact that platform differences were not a factor in the HoF rankings.

Every platform has it's handicaps and Xbox has by far the least and I don't now any handicap which actually has influence on the possible maximum scores and there are many advantages (e.g. the jump-height) other platforms don't have. When we first misprized the power of the IPG in TOTL, we aimed for the Hoodflyer-Maximum in TOTL. Guess which platform has the most Hoodflyers and which the least? Sometimes it's just crazy. But let's not take up this endless discussion again.

I remember counting the combo-able Hoodflyers on the PS2 and the Xbox platforms when Xenon and I investigated TOTL. It was the same number on each platform. I don’t know about GC and PC.

Rayman may have a jump advantage in SBTC on Xbox but a disadvantage in running speed compared to PS2. That fact together with the survival rate of the Hoodblaster makes BOM a challenge to complete. In other words, Xbox is probably the best platform for SBTC and the worst platform for BOM.

TO me PC must be the “golden platform” since it’s the platform where you can get most points. I don’t have the MG discovery working on my Xbox for example.

[Cut]

Like I said, the PCM is an example of an IPG. The Razoff thing eludes me.

PCM is the example for a glitch which has one effect which is equal to one effect of the IPG. Like killing a boss with a powerup has one effect the Razoff (Single-) Glitch has too: getting the points doubled. I hope you see what's the intent of this bad comparison, one communality in many properties does not make two things the same.

TO me PC must be the “golden platform” since it’s the platform where you can get most points. I don’t have the MG discovery working on my Xbox for example.

So we're back on polemic now?
Let's go on with the serious matters.

[MandM81]

So we're back on polemic now?
Let's go on with the serious matters.

I was being kind and taking the time to correct certain platform related misapprehensions.

I'm satisfied you're ready to move on to things that matter, and can you please leave the confrontational style in your posts behind as well.

[sfn42]

@Adsolution: We saw the IPG has a new and exciting change that enhanced the game. I guess that's the difference. We played with it because we enjoyed it and we enjoyed playing the game that way. Saying that you don't like the IPG is subjective and it's fine but it's on the same level as when we say we liked the IPG-gameplay. That doesn't make it unfair, though. The IPG can be used on all platforms and the maximum in TOTL is, based on our current understanding, the same on all platforms. Old technqiues becoming obsolete and new techniques making old maximum scores easier to get is a natural process and there are many examples in the history of R3 for that. Some even involve glitches. And those who have retired long ago will be pushed down the scoring list by the discovery of new gameplay techniques. That is a natural process and not unfair to anyone.

Indeed, that's an excellent way of describing that point of view, and it works, it just comes down to what objective people are seeking from the HoF. It's just a bother since both perspectives need to be squished into one HoF, but neither is wrong. I actually think it's pretty neat that the community is in charge of the Rayman 3 scoreboard, otherwise all usage of any kind of glitch would be condemned by the creators without discussion.

That's true. I remember the old RZ days when the HoF was full of cheat-engine cheaters and that really invalidated the whole ranking in a way. On the other hand, we have to be careful to not overmoderate the HoF. Imposing questionable restrictions on the HoF invalidates it just as much.

Agreed on these (though, getting more than two people to vote on something seems like a give-in). I'm especially in support of additional columns, what kind of extra info did you have in mind?

I still think that the glitch categories-idea we discussed a few pages back is a reasonable approach to that. We could collapse some categories but I think we could work with that. Also, integrating platform differences like the lums-glitch advantage in DOTK and HH (in terms of maximum score) and the missing green can in FC would be something worth looking into in my opinion.

I'm still not for letting in IPG, but again, that's just my own vote from my own viewpoint towards the competition aspect. Though, with that, I think it should, like everything else, be put under a vote. Even if we already have voted, it would be better to have it again along with everything else, so that the decision is a little more formal.

Should we do all the voting through a poll being added to this thread, or just state in a post? If the former, I (or Xenon) could manage that whenever it's to be done.

I think we should strive towards a compromise that everyone can accept and that a vote should be a last ressort. As the last vote showed, it's a procedure that is likely to leave some people dissatisfied and create additional tension. Also, we have to always consider the problem of representative samples, as has been mentioned multiple times. There may be no way to avoid a vote but I would be glad about a solution that doesn't involve one (or at least a formal one). If there is a vote, I am definitely in favor of stating things in the post, as it is a much more reliable measure. With polls there is always the danger that people start voting randomly without having put any thought into the issue (as in: they see a poll and just click on something for fun) and that's something we should definitely avoid.

[Cut]

MandM, Xenon, Adsolution, are you going to play Rayman 3 again for points? Especially TOTL and CF?