Rayman 2

[Haruka]

Speaking of Rayman Revolution, I wasn't aware it had a release on PSN for PS3.
To those who own that digital copy, can you see any graphical improvements?

Only the americans have access to it for some reason.

[Master]

On Grolem 13, we did indeed discuss it not too long ago (back in February): viewtopic.php?p=890711#p890711

[PluMGMK]

About there being no guardian/temple for the fourth mask, it's actually a bit of Fridge Brilliance (if I may use that trope in this context).

Clearly it's the air mask (Grolem 13 in fact reinforces this), but remember what Polokus says right after you bring him the mask?

On land, the lums make me invincible, but in the air I am as vulnerable as a new-born.

He never had the power to make a guardian or a temple suitable for containing that particular mask.

[Master]

Huh, never thought of it that way, that is actually pretty clever in retrospect.

[spiraldoor]

About there being no guardian/temple for the fourth mask, it's actually a bit of Fridge Brilliance (if I may use that trope in this context).

A trope is an instance of figurative language, like an exaggeration or a metaphor. You're thinking of narrative devices. There's really no similarity, but that site started conflating the two and now you see people making the same mistake all over the internet. God knows why.

He never had the power to make a guardian or a temple suitable for containing that particular mask.

Which never made any sense. How can he have dreamt the universe into existence, yet have no power a couple of miles into the air? Normally I try not to overthink plot devices like this, but surely they could have come up with a better excuse for Rayman having to take on Razorbeard himself – one that doesn't diminish Polokus's role as creator god quite so severely?

[PluMGMK]

I don't know. The statues of robots in the Tomb of the Ancients somewhat give the impression of history repeating itself, so maybe the whole thing was contrived. How convenient that Rayman had to fly an airship to obtain the air mask. I won't go so far as to say that Polokus lied, but he may have adjusted the circumstances so that it would play out that Rayman had to fight on the Prison Ship himself in order to fulfill the… I won't say prophecy, but I can't think of a better word for it.

[spiraldoor]

I'd forgotten about those statues – or should we say fossils? They add another layer to the proceedings all right. (I remember someone on here telling me not to waste time trying to interpret them, saying that they were simply models reused out of laziness – what a frightfully dull attitude!) There's certainly a cyclical aspect to the Rayman series, with an assault on the Heart of the World and a plunge into metaphysical chaos initiating each adventure, followed by Rayman working to restore the status quo. Maybe that's what the O on his chest really signifies. Here's a daft idea to think about: maybe the various ports of the game are actually sequels.

When I was thirteen or fourteen, I tried to rationalise Polokus's claims by suggesting that the Leptys was an air god with whom he existed in a kind of duality, reducing Polokus to the status of an earth god. Of course I also concluded that Jano was a fire god and that there was some kind of water god out there somewhere. All this fits uneasily with the four masks, and more to the point it's terribly reductive. My August Derleth phase.

[Master]

Ooh, Headcanon brewing, eh? Lemme season this discussion, then. This is mostly going to be based off the Knowledge of the World:
Hmm, I don't think Polokus has absolute power over the Glade, he does share a symbiotic link, no doubt. But I find it curious how he then decided to create Clark, who's stated to have carved the various mountains and other features of the Glade. I also find it interesting in how it doesn't make mention of him ever making any physical aspects of the Glade, merely inhabitants for it. (Looking it over, it seems that other material supports it, so ignore that. Still, I hold my belief in that Polokus' power in shaping the Glade is limited, he might have been able to create the Glade, but shaping it might have been another matter entirely).

We know that Polokus himself came to be due to the lums themselves. In early times, it's said that the gods fought over the lums emanating from a disc (as GlobDisc states). During this time, the "world" was completely flat. Given the vagueness of that statement, it could be interpreted that "world" could refer to the entirety of the Rayman Universe. With all those factors in mind, I think Polokus might have superiors in the hierarchy of spirits, and his domain (the Glade) is merely a small speck in the grander RayVerse that we haven't seen.

[PluMGMK]

In terms of gods and power, it would appear that Leptys is actually superior to Polokus, since it appears to have control over lums (it can transform black lums into red ones, and even clone black lums), which themselves are responsible for the creation and continued sovereignty of Polokus.

Also, I noticed in that discussion about Grolem 13, something was mentioned about the original guardians' names meaning something. Is there anything to this?

[Master]

Not entirely sure, I know that Axel's original (ie. French) name was a pun or some form of wordplay in regards to the cold, but that's all I'm aware of.

Hm, and in regards to Leptys, that's an idea, though I wonder what the cause is for the duality of the lums in the first place.

[PluMGMK]

Aglagl? Maybe it approximates the sound of chattering or shivering. Froutch might likewise approximate someone's reaction to being burned/scalded (although I suppose everyone reacts differently). Not sure about "Oumbr" though.

As for lum duality, it could be as simple as being akin to different polarisations of light. Although it's implied that any form of lum can be transformed into any other (recall that André wanted to transform the Heart itself into black lums). Which makes sense, when you consider the good ol' Principle of Conservation of Mass-Energy!
Sorry about the Physics overdose, I think most people here are reasonably well-versed in that…

[Master]

Energy and Mass cannot be created or destroyed, merely converted, if memory serves. Anyways, I wouldn't apply too much IRL logic to the RayVerse, but a little doesn't hurt here and there, I guess. Though on the topic of duality, I remember once considering Dark Lums as Anti-Lums, as Anti-Matter to Matter.

[PluMGMK]

The third doctor (whatever his name is ) did refer to André as "a negative energy" which kind of matches up with that. Also I just realised that normal lums give out light, whereas black lums, by definition, absorb it. That might explain the "negative" part, if nothing else.

[Shrooblord]

I get the feeling Polokus didn't as much create the Universe, but rather their Universe, or, to put it in other words, dreamt into existence everything that can be seen on Rayman's world. Since the Pirates came from outer space (read: 'outside' of Polokus's dreams), the spirit has no power over their dominion (the sky). He very well may have dreamt up the world and its skies, but he, such is the nature of dreams, has no control over them once they're there. It's why his nightmares have been allowed to continue on to live in the world of the Rayman games.

Polokus's power to create is as much a blessing as it is a curse - he can form marvellous things with his mind, but control over them he has not - similarly, if he creates horrid, foul beings, control over them, he also has not.

[Haruka]

I get the feeling Polokus didn't as much create the Universe, but rather their Universe, or, to put it in other words, dreamt into existence everything that can be seen on Rayman's world. Since the Pirates came from outer space (read: 'outside' of Polokus's dreams), the spirit has no power over their dominion (the sky). He very well may have dreamt up the world and its skies, but he, such is the nature of dreams, has no control over them once they're there. It's why his nightmares have been allowed to continue on to live in the world of the Rayman games.

Polokus's power to create is as much a blessing as it is a curse - he can form marvellous things with his mind, but control over them he has not - similarly, if he creates horrid, foul beings, control over them, he also has not.

I agree with this point of view. Polokus did warn Rayman in R2 that he couldn't stop the Buccaneer since it was in the air, while he could take care of the remaining pirates in the land of the Glade, simply because he seems to be nearly unbeatable in earth.

[Master]

Yeah, that's a pretty apt way to put it, it explains why he needed Clark to carve the Glade, as well as the whole vulnerable in the sky problem.

I still wonder about what I'm tempted to call the Greater Spirits, as mentioned before, Polokus came to be after the Lums emerged, which emerged at "the dawn of time." According to BBDisc, there were some gods who fought over the emerging lums. It's this piece of lore in particular that intrigues me, because I wonder if the events of this fight are connected to the reason we have a variety of lum types. A headcanon of mine is that the Origins lums are general lums (this is obviously retroactive), however, due to the nature of the war between these Greater Spirits, these lums fused and changed, giving the various coloured lum types that would eventually populate the RayVerse.

Another thing I find interesting is how BBDisc refers to its event occurring at the "dawn of time," despite it being stated in the Knowledge of the World that Polokus and other fellow spirits dreamt up time. Which would occur...later? I think that when time was dreamt up, it wasn't being created anew, but merely being moulded into the time that would eventually flow as we see in the modern RayVerse. Think of it a little like how the Time Lords began creating laws of time and managed it, even though time itself predates them.

[Droolie]

I have a pretty good theory/headcanon in which all of this fits perfectly, but that is touched upon in Dreambound and thus somewhat spoilery for it.
However, about this:

I don't know. The statues of robots in the Tomb of the Ancients somewhat give the impression of history repeating itself, so maybe the whole thing was contrived.

The name "Tomb of the Ancients" might be somewhat of a mistranslation, seeing as it gives off a different vibe than the original French name.
Although I really like the thought that the Ancients were beings that existed a long time ago (I even use that in Dreambound), and although it would be amazing if there was some kind of cyclic history in the Rayman universe, we might just have been wrong by thinking about ancient things this whole time!

In the original French name "Le Tombeau des Anciens", the word ancien in French of course means ancient when looked at as an adjective, but as a noun, it means "predecessor in a function". The robots in the Tomb of the Ancients might simply be Razorbeard's predecessors - the previous captains of the Robo-Pirate army.
But that would raise more questions: why would his predecessors be buried in the Glade? The war hasn't been raging on for that long, has it?

[PluMGMK]

I had a feeling there was something up with that "Anciens" thing. I ignored it for some reason though.

I get the feeling that the pirates may only have built the tomb since their invasion of the Glade - recall that it's not on Rayman's path, but rather further north, and therefore closer to the Prison Ship (or should that be Ship-Prison? ).
Actually, I just realised, it might be a burial place for those that failed the "Technical Check-up". As for why Zombie Chickens etc. appear, it's probably one of the first places they set up shop, and therefore the effects of their upsetting of the world are most pronounced there.

[Master]

Hmm, come to think of it, what would one class as the normal progression of time in the Rayverse?

[PluMGMK]

Well, if I may enter the realm of Physics once again, if time increases with entropy, then events that shatter harmony such as an explosion of the Heart of the World should lead to abnormal passage of time… No wonder things seemed to get so loopy with Rayman 2!