Rayman: Revenge of the Dark

[Adsolution]

Well, I suppose in the meantime I can post this scene, containing some of the new rock models Spanex has been working on:





There are actually only two different rock models here, I had fun trying to get the most amount of variety out of just them.

[Master]

Ooh, reminds me of some rock formations in Rayman 2 and 3, but far more defined, Spanex amazes once again.

[saerleiya]

Kinda...celtic-ish/british-like rocks we have there. Maybe it's my feeling because of the ambiance given by the grass, the eerie brightness and the shape of the rocks to the picture.

This is why it fits quite well to Rayman's ambiance. As it was introduced in Rayman 2 with the Menhirs' Hill, dolmen and menhirs are great for the eerie tone of The Glade of Dreams. Well, or Ubisoft got us used to it.

EDIT: Holy s***, the quality of the rain and of those drops on the rocks is incredible!

I was also wondering, do you have several types of textures for the moss lying on the surface of rocks?

[PluMGMK]

Looks familiar, yet surreal. I love it!

[Spanex]

2000% proud.

Ooh, reminds me of some rock formations in Rayman 2 and 3, but far more defined, Spanex amazes once again.

Thanks so much!

I was also wondering, do you have several types of textures for the moss lying on the surface of rocks?

Not at the time, but the moss in the photoshop files are on a separate layer so they can be removed or changed if needed.

Once we finish this "theme" of textures (there are over 30 models still waiting to be textured!) We will create more themes as we begin working on other worlds.

[Adsolution]

Essentially, we'd be using the same rock models with different textures applied for different environments.

Everything's coming together so well right now! The assets, the environments, the mechanics, the music!

[MisterDark'sFanClub]

Essentially, we'd be using the same rock models with different textures applied for different environments.

Everything's coming together so well right now! The assets, the environments, the mechanics, the music!

I've been meaning to ask you about the music. Are there still completely blank parts of the soundtrack or do you just have to edit and place the songs now? And did you ever edit Raven's song (have I missed anything important about the music in the 2 months I've been gone)?

[Adsolution]

I've been meaning to ask you about the music. Are there still completely blank parts of the soundtrack or do you just have to edit and place the songs now?

Pretty much everything's going to be redone, save for maybe a few tracks. I'll probably only even reuse half the song ideas I originally came up with.

And did you ever edit Raven's song (have I missed anything important about the music in the 2 months I've been gone)?

You picked a good day to ask, as today's literally when I started doing that, and I've spent about seven and a half hours on it so far. Production quality-wise, it blows everything in my current Soundtrack Parts out of the water; not to sound like I'm bragging, it's just that I'd taken a break from composing ROTD stuff for over a year, during which I got to hardcore-practice mixing/production, mixing song after song for my friend's and others' bands.

[Droolie]

Those screenshots look genuinely amazing! The rocks look very Rayman-y. Really well done Ad & Spanex!

[Shrooblord]

I like how sharp the physical borders look like they should be, but how soft they appear. The texturing is sublime. Nice touch putting them in the rain.

[Adsolution]

Those screenshots look genuinely amazing! The rocks look very Rayman-y. Really well done Ad & Spanex!

Thanks 9 billion! :]

I like how sharp the physical borders look like they should be, but how soft they appear. The texturing is sublime. Nice touch putting them in the rain.

Part of the reason they're actually in the rain is because I haven't generated the normal maps yet, so the rain puddles (which have dynamic normals) help to mask that.

Kinda...celtic-ish/british-like rocks we have there. Maybe it's my feeling because of the ambiance given by the grass, the eerie brightness and the shape of the rocks to the picture.

This is why it fits quite well to Rayman's ambiance. As it was introduced in Rayman 2 with the Menhirs' Hill, dolmen and menhirs are great for the eerie tone of The Glade of Dreams. Well, or Ubisoft got us used to it

That's the whole concept being gone for, I feel like that, artistically, was where the series was at its strongest. Even Band Land/Picture City had a similar amazingly exotic vibe, though Picture City was definitely more Asian. Ah heck, it's all wonderful.

[Shrooblord]

A mix-and-match of cultures from around the world to inspire one's own concepts for world design is a neat idea - it enables everyone to relate to at least something and it also results in a cool, hive-mindesque combination of all peoples' styles and ideas. Good thinking, Batman!

[Plejadenwolf]

Wow, gosh, I've been just a bit neglectful in regards to this thread over the last two months. I apologise, here we go:

Everything looks so perfect,

Ahaha, no. Logically speaking, since what I have now is much better than that plain stuff, it isn't remotely perfect. But I guess I can't prove that to anyone until I actually show something!

Yeah, I was more emotionally speaking and referring to the overall atmosphere you created in that video back in the days. Especially the first half of the video with the beach and all that stuff. It was like a revelation for me. I know that the term of perfection is rather relative. It's not unreachable as some say, but more or less dependent on external factors (circumstances like the historical time you live in, social milieu, technical progression and the spirit of time and so on) and internal factors (subjective sensation and appraisal, ideas, how the ideas work and so on). One of the major problems with perfection is, that you have to culminate and translate many dynamic events, some of them unrecognizable and working in the background of reality, into a less dynamic and more static medium. That's maybe the problem (and benefit) of human thinking: You think in terms of things (for example: "What is consciousness?" like asking for a handy thing, ignoring a whole lot of processes in spacetime). But hell, that's another topic I think.

1.) Memory Realms: Is this actually the realm in where Rayman's travels to other worlds shortly similar to the Hall of Doors or is it really the realm in where the memories of his powers are stored, some of them forgotten, some of them not yet revealed? In my humble opinion this should be for "memories" as the name suggests and it could be very interesting to search around in Rayman's mind for hidden secrets or memories from the past.

The idea of the place is that it's basically a mental place - not even metaphysical, more comparable to a lucid dream - where Rayman can sift through his memories in clear detail (revisiting levels), in a way so that it actually changes the outcome as a result of Rayman having garnered more knowledge over the course of his journey, a 'power' he gains after his first visit to the Memory Realm in the... Memory Realm level, technically, the level you're entered in to between the first and second levels (you won't automatically be transported here after completing any other level, you can just choose to go back there at any time). You could perceive this as being an elaborate way to make sense of revisiting levels and events in order to collect pickups, but a little twist I've thrown in is that whatever you do differently in one level will affect every level after it (these are mostly scripted if they're game-changing, and dynamic if they're related to powering up and whatnot), but every level before it still remains unchanged.

Please point out if there's any inherent game-breakiness to this concept, because I feel like there would be, but I can't think of any for some reason.

I like the idea of a mental place and the connection to lucid dreaming (which is a very interesting topic, indeed!) you mentioned. I hope there's going to be a little animation of Rayman going back into his mind.

2.) Looking at the Canyon of the Lost I just have to say: Ad, please add tumbleweeds! (You know, those famous rolling bushes in cliche western.) They would perfectly fit to this place in my opinion. As for the atmosphere I think it could be influenced by a mix of martian surface, Australian dessert and Uluru (or Ayers Rock), the Grand Canyon or other canyons, maybe some not so commonly known ones.

Maybe some giant, 20-foot tumbleweeds, that would be hilarious!

Sounds like Rayman having a bad nightmare of the Canyon of the Lost. Hm, maybe some dangerous thorn-tumbleweeds or some little enemies hiding and rolling in those bushes to attack Rayman on his journey... That actually reminds me of those rolling lizard creatures from M.C. Escher, the Curl-ups. Would be cool to see some similar creatures in the Canyon of the Lost, moving forward only driven by the wind. However, this would also fit into Picture City as Origami-creature, folding itself into a more compact form to move forward.

(...)
It think that concept may fit into that. Think about our shattered hero who sometimes needs a rest before going on to his journey. Maybe some resting places like hammocks are needed even to enter the Realm of Memories, but there should be a distinction between sleeping and just snoozing for a while. However, let's go for a possible scene what happens when he actually sleeps:
(...)

I actually had an idea like this way back in 2009, where a fountain or really reflective pond would signify the end of a level, and if you look into it, you go into the Memory Realm/level select. It's similar to the hammock idea. Unfortunately, the more I pondered this, the more it became obvious that that would severely hamper the flow of progressing from one level to another, always assuming that any transition is a situation where Rayman can stop for a moment, let alone sleep. There are a few levels already where this would literally be impossible, the best example probably being the transition from the Ice Volcano to Starlight Peak, where the previous level ends and the next level begins just as Rayman slides off a cliff after being chased by a lavalanche (hehe, just thought of that word now).

You're right about the aspect of game flow. It feels more organic and coherent when it isn't interrupted by such elements, just think about the progress in The Last of Us for example. However, I was always a fan of stationary checkpoints even in times of constant saving. In any case, I prefer only those who are not unifunctional but multifunctional, without directly screaming to the player: "Hey look, you can clearly see that I'm a checkpoint because I look so out-of-place!" A good example for what I mean are the checkpoints in Shadow of the Colossus (just like The Last of Us, if you haven't played: DO IT IMMEDIATELY!). They feel like they are part of the world and they fulfill several purposes: The primary purpose is, as you may have guessed, to save game progress. In Shadow of the Colossus you aren't interrupted that much in game flow, you can move the camera and look around. The second purpose is that you can hunt lizards to gain more perseverance. A third purpose is that you can climb on top of every shrine to have a fantastic view on the landscape. If that weren't enough, it also has another function: When you wait some time in the starting menu, the camera goes behind a flying eagle flying around those specific checkpoint. You can't control him, but you can move the camera around, seeing the hero sleeping on the shrine, your horse romping around, have an epic view on the already amazing landscape, which is absolutely amazing.
To summarize it: Checkpoints don't feel like a pain in the ass or like a needed compulsion in a nice packaging. They are not cut down to their primary function, but share several additional functions which you can use if you're up to. And last but not least: They make sense in the world in which they are placed in. Hypothetically, they could be used by everyone, not only the main character.
According to Rayman, I think there could be places like that in several shapes dependent on the environment in which they are placed in with several additional functions: Shrines, hammocks, tents, houses, paintings and stuff like that which you can interact with in several ways as you please.
Whatsoever, that leads to one final question related to that: How is the player of Revenge of the Dark supposed to save his game? Manual saving, a combination of checkpoints and background auto-saving or even a mixture from all of them?

Why is Pictur e City scary looking? (...) Is it the same basic concept in this game?

Given that Picture City is the only area (besides the Dream Forest, though that doesn't really count) that is directly revisited, I figured I would put my own twist on it. By no means am I retconning the style of the original though, no, it's just that a large amount of Rayman's time in Picture City here is spent in areas/seasons that Rayman hadn't previously explored. The misty/rainy Picture City seen here has a sentimental, very much intended meaning behind it; it's difficult to describe without artwork or a video accompanying it. Nothing in Picture City in ROTD is made to look 'human', and I'm not talking anthropomorphically. Even if you have a drawing pin with two eyes, they move and act in such a way that seems unrelatable and distant - it may seem as if they're following you, but then you notice them actually tracing a different path, as if they've already forgotten about you, or never noticed you in the first place. There's one scene where you see shredded origami birds continually floating across the scene, and the whole point is to arouse a sense of confused poignancy by having them simply be shoddily-made papercrafts on par with newspaper hats floating about, but at the same time, given that everything in this land is sentient and organic even if alien, they're actually probably torn, living birds, but you can't feel for them the way you know you want to, and that's what's upsetting.

Of course, that's something very specific I'm going for, and a lot of work will be put into that particular scene so that as many people react as similarly as possible, even if it's just as a little tinge on their subconscious. I don't intend for everyone to literally grasp the roots of their feelings, it's moreso a 'motif' present throughout the level.

That's just brilliant. Especially the point where a creature is following you and then it just progresses forward, apparently forgetting about your presence. I very much like this way of presentation and thinking as a whole. It's all about those details, the coherence between beings and things and the work-together of the totality of involvements, which shows in an excellent way one the several meanings what I would call "organic" or "organic realism". The great thing about this inner coherency is that you are able to place non-coherent things more drastically. Think about the monoliths in Kubrick's 2001: A Space Odyssey or black holes in our very own reality... Like something that seems not belonging to it's place, something that hurts our room of perception.

A mix-and-match of cultures from around the world to inspire one's own concepts for world design is a neat idea - it enables everyone to relate to at least something and it also results in a cool, hive-mindesque combination of all peoples' styles and ideas. Good thinking, Batman!

Exactly!

Well, I suppose in the meantime I can post this scene, containing some of the new rock models Spanex has been working on:





There are actually only two different rock models here, I had fun trying to get the most amount of variety out of just them.

Kudos to Spanex an Adsolution, the scenery plus those great looking rocks create a sense of badassery, reflecting the amazing talent of both.

[incognito]

I have a question : is the game gonna be an easy hackable one like Doom so someone can easily make an hypothetic sequel or be less hackable than a rock ?

[MisterDark'sFanClub]

I've been meaning to ask you about the music. Are there still completely blank parts of the soundtrack or do you just have to edit and place the songs now?

Pretty much everything's going to be redone, save for maybe a few tracks. I'll probably only even reuse half the song ideas I originally came up with.

And did you ever edit Raven's song (have I missed anything important about the music in the 2 months I've been gone)?

You picked a good day to ask, as today's literally when I started doing that, and I've spent about seven and a half hours on it so far. Production quality-wise, it blows everything in my current Soundtrack Parts out of the water; not to sound like I'm bragging, it's just that I'd taken a break from composing ROTD stuff for over a year, during which I got to hardcore-practice mixing/production, mixing song after song for my friend's and others' bands.

That's great to hear! And sorry about the stalls; but you seem to be having fun with all the music!

Btw, I have another question. I remember there was, before I left for two months, some ideas about Dark Rayman falling in love with Raven and turning from the villain to the tragic hero.

So is that gonna happen? Will Dark Rayman die as a villain or live long enough to see himself become a hero?

[Bradandez]

A mix-and-match of cultures from around the world to inspire one's own concepts for world design is a neat idea - it enables everyone to relate to at least something and it also results in a cool, hive-mindesque combination of all peoples' styles and ideas. Good thinking, Batman!

Not to purposely shamelessly promote myself, I'm actually doing with that with my game.

[Adsolution]

I hope there's going to be a little animation of Rayman going back into his mind.

I want there to be, something like the Rayman 2 knowledge animation where he puts his hands on his head, but at the same time I might not as it would look strange doing that in a fight or any kind of action sequence.

Sounds like Rayman having a bad nightmare of the Canyon of the Lost. Hm, maybe some dangerous thorn-tumbleweeds or some little enemies hiding and rolling in those bushes to attack Rayman on his journey... That actually reminds me of those rolling lizard creatures from M.C. Escher, the Curl-ups. Would be cool to see some similar creatures in the Canyon of the Lost, moving forward only driven by the wind. However, this would also fit into Picture City as Origami-creature, folding itself into a more compact form to move forward.

I like all this. I could have enemies rolling in those tumbleweeds, jumping out when they get near, or just riding them all the way down.

Whatsoever, that leads to one final question related to that: How is the player of Revenge of the Dark supposed to save his game? Manual saving, a combination of checkpoints and background auto-saving or even a mixture from all of them?

It's very much like in Rayman 3: every checkpoint will save the game, and you can exit or turn off after any of those and you''ll start back at the beginning of the checkpoint. If you want to load a different level however, you start at the beginning of that level.

I have a question : is the game gonna be an easy hackable one like Doom so someone can easily make an hypothetic sequel or be less hackable than a rock ?

It is running on a big, public engine, so it would be difficult to make it entirely non-hackable. There are internal ways of encrypting your project which make all the game files located within PAK containers (models, textures, sounds, levels, music etc) unattainable unless you do some reverse-engineering, but that's about the closest I would be able to get, which is still pretty close to being relatively hack-free. I like modding however, so I don't want to lock users out from that, at least not in the end. For demo releases and whatnot, everything will probably be encrypted, but in the final release, I want to ship a ModSDK or something.

Btw, I have another question. I remember there was, before I left for two months, some ideas about Dark Rayman falling in love with Raven and turning from the villain to the tragic hero.

I haven't actually really thought about it since then. I don't want 'love' to show its face in any literal form, however the idea of her being close to both Rayman and Dark Rayman could create some wonderful tension, which I now want to think about! It could fill in a few gaps to make Raven's character more apparently interesting.

So is that gonna happen? Will Dark Rayman die as a villain or live long enough to see himself become a hero?

Lel. Well I can't say unfortunately!

[Shrooblord]

Well I can't say unfortunately!

Damn you, copyright press release legislation! Have you gotten to the indie dev companies now too???

[MisterDark'sFanClub]

@ Adsolution

Yeah, I understand. The only "love" there was in the Rayman games was Rayman and Ly smiling at each other at the end of Rayman 2.

Tension? This may sound dumb, but do you mean similar to the kind of tension Daphne and Freddie feel in Scooby Doo when they flirt with other people even though they never officially become a thing? Maybe a poor analogy, but does that mean that Raven will be completely oblivious to Rayman and Dark Ray's "flirting" (there really is no flirting in Rayman) and Rayman will get mad because she's talking to Dark Ray more than she talks to him and vice versa?

[Adsolution]

I didn't mean tension between the characters, rather tension from the player, as if I were to use this plan, Rayman and Dark Rayman would be completely oblivious. The only time this might possibly be revealed to Rayman would be during the final fight, but even then I wouldn't want him to actually understand what's going on - Dark Rayman could exhibit shock at what's happening when Raven obviously takes Rayman's side - as if she knows him or something - and Rayman can interpret that however he wants.

This is obviously completely up in the air, I'm just describing possibilities. I'm keen on it though because it takes her character in the precise direction I want it to, and it would help to flesh out her character - I was having trouble doing that before this idea showed up.