PSX/2 NTSC music rip of Rayman 2 and 3 request

[deton24]

Most of this messange is addressed to Droolie, but you can share your feelings about that.
My idea is unpack all music from PSX's NTSC version of Rayman 2 and 3 (PS2), maybe someone will do this faster then Droolie/Drolpiraat. I know that all will be cut for lot of small pieces.. but I can handle it.
Current music rips sounds terribly poor for today's conditions.

http://www.emuparadise.me/PSX_on_PSP_IS ... 2#Download

http://www.emuparadise.me/Sony_Playstat ... 2#Download

Points marked as * are additional to read/answer.
I'm warning that this weird yellow type is too painfull for eyes to read all of this..

First of all, sorry for my English, I'll do my best.
Please reserve a little time for me, because I have a few longer cases.

I'm really appreciate your work with unpacking soundtracks from Rayman Series. Great work.
Now I have a great need.
PSX version of Rayman 2 sounds the best from all releases.
1. Can you unpack that music for me from PS1 NTSC?
Please note that NTSC PSX version sounds better than PAL, so please rip music from NTSC if it's not problem. It serves better quality even than PS2's Rayman Revolution. I heavely compared.

Unfortunately, your Revolution rip sound much worse than original PS2 (I don't know why) and than PC version. Worse, even PSX sounds poor on today's conditions, but the best, like I sad.

I would, and I thinking about it for a long time, about work on remaster/crystalize all music from PSX, and then it's gonna findly sound well after 19 years from release of Rayman 2.. I'l work on it when I would have that rip from you. But without my interference it'll be sounds good too..

I hope that you'll make PSX NTSC rip in native quality, (not like Revolution is done) exacly how it is, send me this in flac, and I'll work on this files?

I'll sort it out, delete worse tracks from Revolution, leave better, rest leave untouched, or/and record what left from Revolution via PCSX2 emulator, which gives much better quality than your's revolution rip which suppose to sound better.

2*. If you couldn't do this unpack, do you have flac files of PC rip which was previously on raytunes, before Revolution? Because now R2 has worse quality than before (but it isn't really, only on your rip). That "hiss" which you had mentioned in PC version gives huge possibility in recovery quality in remastering/crystalizing process and X-Fi Crystalizer reduces that his, and thanks to this I'll enchance, refresh highs.
That's this 192 kbps version:

Code: Select all

https://www.dropbox.com/sh/od3djmk4xkhszto/AACowElycpCn56Nm5s1rzC0ga

After "tuning" it's really sounds great, but still PSX better...

3*. Second thing. There is a one file in PC release which sounds better than rest in this PC rip, its: "57 - The Disk". Do you know why? I know that's detail, but if rest would sound like this.. I guess it's PSX quality... I asking because maybe it's your job.

4. Now with Rayman 3. Sounds much better on PS2 than PC version (Ripped by Killy VBR V0). Can you unpack music from PS2 version too? You would ask Hunch to replace it in RayTunes as R2. Result will be great. Maybe without my interference in enchancing anything there, I'm not sure with it in this game. This PS2 version is good. But current R3 rip dosn't suite to anything...

5. Next think. I have found in good quality Tonic Trouble Soundtrack. Better than I have been given from one topic on raymanpc.com. Still 160 kbps, but sounds better. Source is grooveshark.com, downloaded via extension for Chrome. It seems that there is a Audio CD somewhere...
Can you post it on RayTunes as you promised at one time?

Code: Select all

https://www.dropbox.com/sh/8x83d55ihdi5ele/AAAHXaaKreojBn_SdfjwE3yca

(click on dots and download as zip for all songs)

6. Next idea is posting at RayTunes all speaches of Raymanian 2 creatures (because not everyone visit board) which are you share with us at some topic (thank you for all) .
French
English and Raymanian [file RayRev-VSFX.zip - error]
German [Ray2PS2VFX-de.zip as above]
all links from there are dead...

Here is a samples of my work with high quality Rayman 2 soundtracks.
Overworld -

Code: Select all

https://www.dropbox.com/s/jx6bf0irmzetk6k/overwolrd%20remastered%20beta%200.7.mp3

original (source) -

Code: Select all

https://www.dropbox.com/sh/od3djmk4xkhszto/AABbTl0JkOG1sbKVy3-n6gAza/06%20-%20Overworld.mp3

[remastered, crystalized, eq hi's correct] source - r2 pc rip, result is not bad, but still unfinished, imperfect. Need more work and better base - PSX ;]

Fairy Glade (part of song) -

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https://www.dropbox.com/s/08zuh6m3iax5shp/Fairy%20Glade.mp3

original (source) -

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https://www.dropbox.com/sh/od3djmk4xkhszto/AACKB7AhGxuFMO7Ai1dP4VaVa/07%20-%20The%20Fairy%20Glade%20-%20Part%201.mp3

eq, crystalized, complicated configuration of source - PCX2's Rayman Revolution (plugins etc.) (PSX has better quality - confirmed by me) still has some shortcomings - too loud drums (eq changes) and source is not perfect.
Original files are 24bit/192khz.
Remember that still i'm unlettered amateur in this topic, only enthusiast, not professional so result of these interventions will be not the best in the world.

Sorry for this long letter to you. I really appreciate your whole work with soundtracks and I'd like to help too.
On the end, I admiring English of most met users on board... My is not as yours.. sorry.
cheers!
deton24

PS. Can someone point out my generally repeated English gramatical errors? Thank you!
PS2. Where is xxx[spoiler/] on this board?[/color]

[Droolie]

Hey there!
Sorry for taking so long to respond. I just finished my university exams today. During my exams I didn't have the time to respond to lengthy messages like these, so sorry if it looked like I ignored your message. While I haven't fully recovered from all the work yet, I really want to get this over with.

First of all...

Current music rips sounds terribly poor for today's conditions.

You and I are off to a great start.

Anyway, you want me to rip the PS1 version of Rayman 2. Before I reply to this, let me clarify: the PS1 version does indeed have better sound quality than any other version. But looking at the game's files, it's nonsense that the NTSC version has better sound quality - the music files are exactly the same. It is also wrong that the rip currently on RayTunes sounds worse than what's on the Rayman Revolution disc - the audio files were extracted from the disc as professionally as possible, directly converted to lossless WAVE format with VGMStream (which includes the best PS2 ADPCM player), losslessly edited together and saved as MP3 and - you guessed it - lossless FLAC format. The same was done for the Dreamcast version, which is where the majority of the Rayman 2 tracks came from. Note that for this version, the files were actual, uncompressed wave files, and everything was again converted losslessly. This means that the quality is the same as it was originally. I'm sorry I didn't attempt to make it better than the source material.

Every single version of Rayman 2 has 22050Hz audio, while the PS1 version's audio quality is much higher: it has 44100Hz and 37800Hz audio. It's an audible difference and before I tried to rip it, I believed I had to include that in the soundtrack. But I didn't. Why, you ask? Because it's abridged, shortened. Only small parts of the actual songs are stored on the PS1 disc, and most of them are pre-edited so they loop and fade out. Short looping parts that fade out are hardly what one expects to hear - even with superb quality, the soundtrack would be rather poor if it used that source material. The only full song on the PS1 version's disc is the Hall of Doors theme, and even that is cut off slightly before the ending of the actual track. This is why I didn't use it and am not planning to use it.
So no, I will not rip the PS1 version's music. By all means, go ahead and rip it yourself, work your remastering magic, and share your work here. The members who prefer audio quality above completion will love it.

I hope that answers your first question - although not in the way you might have liked.

2*. If you couldn't do this unpack, do you have flac files of PC rip which was previously on raytunes, before Revolution? Because now R2 has worse quality than before (but it isn't really, only on your rip). That "hiss" which you had mentioned in PC version gives huge possibility in recovery quality in remastering/crystalizing process and X-Fi Crystalizer reduces that his, and thanks to this I'll enchance, refresh highs.
That's this 192 kbps version:

Code: Select all

https://www.dropbox.com/sh/od3djmk4xkhszto/AACowElycpCn56Nm5s1rzC0ga

After "tuning" it's really sounds great, but still PSX better...

That rip was actually a line-in rip from the Dreamcast version by kooz. The hiss that was discussed before isn't in that rip, because it is produced by the PC version's proprietary ADPCM coding system. As mentioned before, the Dreamcast version used uncompressed WAVE (PCM) files, so there's no way it can have that same hiss. However, if you want files with that hiss, you can still get them by running Ray2Get on the Rayman 2 files, if you manage to find the prorgam somewhere. It has been missing for some time now and I only still have the source of an old version on my hard drive. :/

3*. Second thing. There is a one file in PC release which sounds better than rest in this PC rip, its: "57 - The Disk". Do you know why? I know that's detail, but if rest would sound like this.. I guess it's PSX quality... I asking because maybe it's your job.

Haha, it's not my job, but I get what you mean. I have no idea why you think it sounds better in kooz's old Dreamcast rip. Try listening to the Globox Disc track currently on RayTunes - it sounds exactly the same (make sure to use the FLAC version for comparison), if not better, because it's not a line-in rip.

4. Now with Rayman 3. Sounds much better on PS2 than PC version (Ripped by Killy VBR V0). Can you unpack music from PS2 version too? You would ask Hunch to replace it in RayTunes as R2. Result will be great. Maybe without my interference in enchancing anything there, I'm not sure with it in this game. This PS2 version is good. But current R3 rip dosn't suite to anything...

I have been planning to do this for quite a while, but I haven't had any time since September. I finally have holdays again though, and will do my best to finally finish that Rayman 3 soundtrack I had been planning. It will have the extra Gamecube tracks as well.

5. Next think. I have found in good quality Tonic Trouble Soundtrack. Better than I have been given from one topic on raymanpc.com. Still 160 kbps, but sounds better. Source is grooveshark.com, downloaded via extension for Chrome. It seems that there is a Audio CD somewhere...
Can you post it on RayTunes as you promised at one time?

Code: Select all

https://www.dropbox.com/sh/8x83d55ihdi5ele/AAAHXaaKreojBn_SdfjwE3yca

(click on dots and download as zip for all songs)

Thanks. There is no audio CD for Tonic Trouble - the soundtrack you linked to is an old line-in rip of the Special Edition (beta version) by Mikael Bouillot. His original files can be found here. I know I promised to put it on RayTunes and I still want to keep that promise. Tonic Trouble's music is fantastic and I have already ripped half of it (the half from the final version - this doesn't include the PC version). I was working on this in February but ever since university started again, I haven't been able to continue. I always try to do these rips the best way possible, by extraction and not by recording. That can get pretty technical. That's why the soundtrack is not on RayTunes yet.

6. Next idea is posting at RayTunes all speaches of Raymanian 2 creatures (because not everyone visit board) which are you share with us at some topic (thank you for all) .
French
English and Raymanian [file RayRev-VSFX.zip - error]
German [Ray2PS2VFX-de.zip as above]
all links from there are dead...

Cool idea, but RayTunes is simply not for anything else than "tunes". But you're right, I should probably post it somewhere where people can find it. Even I don't know where I've posted those links anymore. ^^' If I remember after the R3 and Tonic Trouble soundtracks, I'll make a topic that has everything in it that I ever ripped from the Rayman games so everyone can easily access it. Oh boy, that's going to be huge.

Here is a samples of my work with high quality Rayman 2 soundtracks.
Overworld -

Code: Select all

https://www.dropbox.com/s/jx6bf0irmzetk6k/overwolrd%20remastered%20beta%200.7.mp3

original (source) -

Code: Select all

https://www.dropbox.com/sh/od3djmk4xkhszto/AABbTl0JkOG1sbKVy3-n6gAza/06%20-%20Overworld.mp3

[remastered, crystalized, eq hi's correct] source - r2 pc rip, result is not bad, but still unfinished, imperfect. Need more work and better base - PSX ;]

Fairy Glade (part of song) -

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https://www.dropbox.com/s/08zuh6m3iax5shp/Fairy%20Glade.mp3

original (source) -

Code: Select all

https://www.dropbox.com/sh/od3djmk4xkhszto/AACKB7AhGxuFMO7Ai1dP4VaVa/07%20-%20The%20Fairy%20Glade%20-%20Part%201.mp3

eq, crystalized, complicated configuration of source - PCX2's Rayman Revolution (plugins etc.) (PSX has better quality - confirmed by me) still has some shortcomings - too loud drums (eq changes) and source is not perfect.
Original files are 24bit/192khz.
Remember that still i'm unlettered amateur in this topic, only enthusiast, not professional so result of these interventions will be not the best in the world.

Yeah, the shortcomings you mentioned were the first thing I noticed. The percussion is quite a bit too loud, and the bells' noise in the Hall of Doors theme makes it, quite frankly, hard to listen to. You can probably do better with the PSX version, but then you're going to be working with incomplete songs. If only they had some kind of soundtrack CD with all of the music on it, complete and in full quality, right? That would have been amazing.

Sorry for this long letter to you. I really appreciate your whole work with soundtracks and I'd like to help too.
On the end, I admiring English of most met users on board... My is not as yours.. sorry.

Don't worry, it's fine.
I have some advice though: you often phrase things badly. I think you mean well, but quotes like these:

• "Current music rips sounds terribly poor for today's conditions.", which implies I did a really, really bad job;
• "I'm warning that this weird yellow type is too painfull for eyes to read all of this..", which implies your terribly contrasting white on green font is less painful to look at, while it looks really unprofessional compared to the default font;
• "your Revolution rip sound much worse than original PS2", which implies you actually listened to it, which can't be because it's lossless

make you look like the kind of person who knows nothing but acts like he knows everything.
These aren't mistakes in your English, but please think twice before you write something. It was quite aggravating for me to read your message with quotes like that, especially while studying for my exams. You only made it worse by then sending me 2 e-mails and a private message about it in the following days, as if I wouldn't notice from 1 PM alone (and I didn't even need that to see this topic). Seriously. Patience is a virtue, man!

PS2. Where is xxx[spoiler/] on this board?[/color]

We don't have a spoiler tag. We use this instead:

Code: Select all

[[color=transparent]This is hidden text, highlight it to see it![/color]]

That shows up as: [This is hidden text, highlight it to see it!]

... Phew! I finally answered everything in that message! Never thought I'd make it.

[deton24]

Hello. I'm glad to see exhaustive utterance like that..
I recently tought that you had exams Fine. No rush.

PS1 contains only parts of songs... -
Despite, I'll be very happy to look around in that files. Maybe you'll have some opportunity to extract them.. I'll be greatful. It's gonna take me years before i get them. If you can, use NTSC. Maybe it's matter of PAL decoding, but I know what I've heard. Small difference. Only extract. I'll join them. I think that it'll be good to include that files for collectors or as separate package. Ex. Woods of Light are mostly all I saw.

Now. R2 Rev. -
I think that it's also the matter of decoding. Same files can sounds difference in various configuration. Only PCSX2/console decodes that music like this. I had event when two different soundcards on PC differently decodes ADPCM in quality. Fairy Glade was from PCX2. Real, comparise.

So, only files which I can tweak well now are R2 PC, and I gonna capture while playing rest exclusive music from Revolution. Not all, but rest. Unless the distant future, I have some ideas to do that. My processing with PC files gives vs PCSX2 good and faster results, So they'll be first.

The only full song on the PS1 version's disc is the Hall of Doors theme

Curiosity - that song is little different than PC. I'll share when eq gonna be fine.

And there is some inaccuracy. If I not mistaken, DC version had worse quality than PC. Linked release by me has hiss, so it's PC's ADPCM. There is no flac for it, what I need. But it's not doing as such difference. Ray2Get fine, but thousands of cut files temporary no. Otherwise, N64 had of course completly different songs.

Tonic Trouble
If you noticed that yours version sounds better, ok. I can tweak that soundtrack too on your version. But temporary you can upload that mine files, after yours, or maybe mine tweaked. From ages nothing happens on Raytunes. [this more invasive type of my expression. missed i guess. I'm sory for that. ]

R2 Samples

the bells' noise in the Hall of Doors theme makes it, quite frankly, hard to listen to.

You mean bells as several parts of song or constant, repeated part? Several I know...
Percussion on Fairy Glade? I know

If only they had some kind of soundtrack CD with all of the music on it, complete and in full quality, right? That would have been amazing.

Curiosity - Rayman 3 PS3 version had professional remastered music. I guess that you can't deal with them.. Line-in.. Better, I can tweak PS2.
2. R2 PS3 version has content of PSX. Propably with music. grhhr..
offtop. Eric Chevalier have made some good soundtracks for movies.

which implies I did a really, really bad job

Sounds "really bad". But seems to very solid and hard work. Respect.

you often phrase things badly

As this bad?

About type. For first look, white is better. When I see this yellow longer for some time, it starting looks better than white. For constant users it's better. But white still looks more patient for eyes...

I tought that traffic on site limits regular visits.
For disturbing the peace and privacy, and annoying I condole and I wish you pass your exams. If they not.
Have a good holidays.
Greetings.

[Droolie]

Okay, I'm going to be brutally honest. In your first post, you made a lot of claims that didn't make sense. I tried to tell you why they didn't make sense, but you simply don't seem to understand. Well, let me introduce you to the boon smiley: . You'll be seeing it a lot in the following post. Right now, it is the only way I can express how monstrously stupid you are.

If you can, use NTSC. Maybe it's matter of PAL decoding, but I know what I've heard. Small difference.

Well, aren't you stubborn. I said the files are the same. That's proof enough. If you heard a small difference, there's an error on your disc.

I think that it's also the matter of decoding. Same files can sounds difference in various configuration. Only PCSX2/console decodes that music like this. I had event when two different soundcards on PC differently decodes ADPCM in quality. Fairy Glade was from PCX2. Real, comparise.

You don't know anything about encoding and decoding at all, do you?

If I not mistaken, DC version had worse quality than PC.

Basically, you're saying a high-bitrate PCM file is lower quality than a heavily compressed, low-bitrate ADPCM file. You are very much mistaken.

Linked release by me has hiss, so it's PC's ADPCM.

The linked release doesn't have the hiss you think it has. Either that, or you're talking about analog noise, because what you linked to is a line-in rip. It is the first rip by Kooz which was a line-in rip from Dreamcast as he himself stated in this post.
Either way, it being caused by UbiSoft's ADPCM codec is completely out of the question.

Curiosity - Rayman 3 PS3 version had professional remastered music.

I pity you that they were able to make you think they even touched the music for any other purpose than converting it to XMA (Xbox format) or a AT3 (PS3 format) - and badly at that!

R2 PS3 version has content of PSX.

Okay, you make less and less sense.

Just stop making claims like that man, you're making a fool of yourself. You don't have any proof of what you say at all, and you're trying to argue against someone who's had almost ten years of experience with videogame music encoding. You can't win this. :/

Either way, I'm not going to help you with this anymore. I was going to, but then you suddenly knew everything better. What an attitude to have when asking someone for help! You can rip the PS1 music yourself if you want to, maybe by doing so, you'll finally learn that I was right all along.

[deton24]

Sorry, but I don't understand your nervousness.

What an attitude to have when asking someone for help!

Maybe my language is not as this precise. In English there are some habits, what I can't uderstand well yet because of my language inexperience.
I'm sorry for annoying you, but I trying to help, and do high quality R2/3, what needs explanation of few complicated questions.

You don't have any proof of what you say at all

Proofs. From the beginning. Maybe blood will not flow :/

If you can, use NTSC

I said if you can. There is very small propability of variance, but there is. I understood that propably for 98% they are same. But it's not important now.

You don't know anything about encoding and decoding at all, do you?

Why about decoding? There is one proof. Still it doesn't change anything since they are the same as extracted files. We don't need professional knowledge and 10 years experience. Proof
We got Max Payne 2. There are ADPCM voices in RAS compressed archives.
Older soundcard during game produces better and clear voices than same game running at newer soundcard. When you unpack voices, and play it via Windows, on all soundcards, voices are worse than in game.

So it's matter of decoder/game engine which uses game. It's basicly explains why your Revolution files are worse than in game. Maybe not worse than native, because like you say, that unpacked files are may be exacly how they are in game archives. And you proof it. But game/console plays/decodes it different.

Basically, you're saying a high-bitrate PCM file is lower quality than a heavily compressed, low-bitrate ADPCM file. You are very much mistaken.

From your previous post my fault was that I hadn't understood that line-in DC it is my linked version. I know what is PCM, but we have still only Kooz's line-in rip, not native. So the best avaible source for R2 now it's DC (PCM). So line-in files left, these linked source. There is no flac for it, Kooz wrote. PC version is worse, I understand. Now we need extract native DC music to make line-in version better. Would not that be wonderful to have it?
Hiss was my mistake. That's not the same what you mentioned somewhere, I understand. Forgive it Drolpiraat. We both are in the same side and want that sound better. Really sorry if I offend you at all.

R2 PS3 version has content of PSX.

Okay, you make less and less sense.

Watch gameplays on You Tube.
Here you have cover nammed PS One.
http://us.playstation.com/games/rayman- ... 3-psp.html
They touched nothing there. But I don't have 100% sure. In that version Murphy not saying anything, we watch freeing slaves, and speaking with guardians of masks. It's normal PSX version if don't mistaken.

I pity you that they were able to make you think they even touched the music for any other purpose than converting it to XMA (Xbox format) or a AT3 (PS3 format) - and badly at that!

http://www.ubi.com/US/Games/Info.aspx?pId=10351 -

The catchy and eclectic soundtrack and all-star voices have been remastered to sound better than ever.

I heard that at You Tube. There can be some change. But PS2 is not bad, especially after my processing.

Don' t hit me, Boss
Sincerely -
deton24

[Droolie]

Sorry, but I don't understand your nervousness.

Let me explain: it ticks me off that you say things you don't know anything about, and you keep doing so even though I told you why you are wrong 2 times. :/
It's not your language that is the problem, it's that you say stupid things based on you (mis)hearing differences in the music while I have proof that there are no such differences, and you just keep going!

There is very small propability of variance, but there is. I understood that propably for 98% they are same. But it's not important now.

No, it is important, because you keep saying there is a small difference. Well, let's say you are right - then that means there is a difference in the source audio, the files on the disc. If there is a difference in the source files, at least one bit in them will differ, and generated checksums will be different. The files that contain the music in the PS1 version are STREAM.IXA and THEME.VAG. I generated three different checksums for each of them, and compared them between versions. You can find the checksum results for STREAM.IXA here and the ones for THEME.VAG here. As you can see, the generated checksums are the same for both regions! There is NO difference between the music in the PAL and NTSC versions of Rayman 2 for PS1. And no, the PS1 does not decode the music differently for different regions. :/

You don't know anything about encoding and decoding at all, do you?

Why about decoding? There is one proof. Still it doesn't change anything since they are the same as extracted files. We don't need professional knowledge and 10 years experience. Proof
We got Max Payne 2. There are ADPCM voices in RAS compressed archives.
Older soundcard during game produces better and clear voices than same game running at newer soundcard. When you unpack voices, and play it via Windows, on all soundcards, voices are worse than in game.

So it's matter of decoder/game engine which uses game. It's basicly explains why your Revolution files are worse than in game. Maybe not worse than native, because like you say, that unpacked files are may be exacly how they are in game archives. And you proof it. But game/console plays/decodes it different.

The console does not decode it differently. The decoder was made from official PS2 specifications, and works exactly like how it does on an actual PS2.
What you say about Max Payne 2 and older sound cards producing better sound than newer sound cards is due to the sound driver not being compatible with newer sound cards and/or newer versions of Windows. Unpacking the sounds produces voices "worse than in game" because they don't have a 3D sound effect applied to them anymore, while they do in-game. While it is common practice to apply effects to voices and sounds in games, music is always played the same as the source material, which means your argument is invalid for music.

Now we need extract native DC music to make line-in version better. Would not that be wonderful to have it?

As I said before, the current rip on RayTunes is a direct (native as you call it) rip of the Dreamcast version... (except for the Revolution-specific tracks)

R2 PS3 version has content of PSX.

Okay, you make less and less sense.

Watch gameplays on You Tube.
Here you have cover nammed PS One.
http://us.playstation.com/games/rayman- ... 3-psp.html
They touched nothing there. But I don't have 100% sure. In that version Murphy not saying anything, we watch freeing slaves, and speaking with guardians of masks. It's normal PSX version if don't mistaken.

Oh, that. It's not the "PS3 version", but rather an emulated ISO of the original PS1 version. So you can be 100% sure - they touched nothing.

I pity you that they were able to make you think they even touched the music for any other purpose than converting it to XMA (Xbox format) or a AT3 (PS3 format) - and badly at that!

http://www.ubi.com/US/Games/Info.aspx?pId=10351 -

The catchy and eclectic soundtrack and all-star voices have been remastered to sound better than ever.

I heard that at You Tube. There can be some change. But PS2 is not bad, especially after my processing.

If you heard that on YouTube, it's because YouTube encodes audio for SD videos in worse quality than audio for HD videos. Once again, the audio files are the same as the ones in the PS2 version, barring the bad conversion to XMA or AT3, which introduced extra gaps between the segments. They haven't touched the voices either. What you quoted is called false advertising.

[deton24]

that means there is a difference in the source audio

No. I said that this is matter of decoding PAL vs NTSC. Thats not depends from files. For ex. NTSC is always major in production against rest.

And no, the PS1 does not decode the music differently for different regions.

Sorry, but Revolution has the same, if I comparised, I can't remember now. I know that files are same! Thanks for checksums. :] It's really not audible difference.

I'm some kind of audiophile. Some people don't hear several frequencies. For example, above 16khz (ex. 20) I can hear it. Mp3 by default cut off frequencies above 16khz (it's not presize, you have - lowpass 19.7 command for lame to that, it's not my plot, that's not only one what encoder do with waves). It's also explains why most people doesn't recognize mp3 vs flac. Every human has different sensitive of hearing sound. Maybe you just have worse hearing or soundsystem. Small test. 1. Try to blind comparise Windows Media Player vs Foobar. 2. Try to raise in eq freq. 20khz. 3. Comparise audio cd/flac against Mp3 320 kbps, even 192. Most people does't recognize difference.

The console does not decode it differently. The decoder was made from official PS2 specifications, and works exactly like how it does on an actual PS2.

But PS2 has completly different architecture, soundcard etc.

Unpacking the sounds produces voices "worse than in game" because they don't have a 3D sound effect applied to them anymore, while they do in-game.

I think only effect which was there, it is emulating EAX by my onboard soundcard there, and mostly it's just giving echo and nothing else. Never increase of quality. What is interesting, my Creative card has native support of EAX (this 3D) and voices are still worse than on older soundcard. Maybe let we treat that 3D is a way of playing/decoding files and it's over, you can't achieve same quality on unpacked raw files, and on various configurations. The same think with Revolution. If it's really 3D effect, nothing else.

music is always played the same as the source material, which means your argument is invalid for music

There is no effects added in music. So it's not yours 3D. You'll have right when music will be played from CD-Audio in CD-Extra Compilation. Then you can run music without any kind of broker during process of playing. Even CPU etc. There was one cable from drive to soundcard responsible for that. Now it's not needed with XP. I don't remember why.

As I said before, the current rip on RayTunes is a direct (native as you call it) rip of the Dreamcast version... (except for the Revolution-specific tracks)

All files there has bad quality there and worse than line-in DC rip. I was suprised that fact. It's confirms only that unpacking from whatever source gives bad results. Only capturing while playing. If you really gave DC files there.. Do you have still only this DC files somewhere? But it's seems that it's no sense.

YouTube encodes audio for SD videos in worse quality than audio for HD videos.

No more. Now If you have rendered file by You Tube, it has good quality even when you give there <720p. That was the other day. And because it was recorded during capturing while playing I said that I don't have 100% sure. It wasn't good quality there. If you have opportunity, why to not try to get this files and find out. Maybe they decoding well on Windows. Have you touched R3 HD files already, or this is your assumptions? And what is better quality of R2, DC or PS2? Maybe it's better to emulate DC. Homever, thank you for discussion and interest.

Only thing left what I can do is:
- Tweak DC-line-in rip
- Capture while playing Revolution/3 and tweak
- Wait for your work with PS3 files, if you haven't done this already :] (I can help perhaps with source)
Time will shows.
Curiosity (DC version): -

I never had so much trouble on a release, it cost me the whole day. Music are packaged in a strange DCZ format, that I've never seen before. Fortunately, I found a set of tools to uncompress and compress them back. Uncompressing was alright, then I converted the music and compressed back. When I went testing, music was not playing. After a lot of time I really found out the reason: the utility I was using to pack the DCZ was not working correctly. So what to do now? Can you guess? Yeah, figure out the DCZ format by myself and pack them back. After some hours, I finally understood the format (the cool part (<- sarcasm) is that there was no data about it on internet),
and could figure out how to pack my music back properly. After some (more) hours, I finished programming my utility to pack DCZ, and I could finish the release.

[Droolie]

that means there is a difference in the source audio

No. I said that this is matter of decoding PAL vs NTSC. Thats not depends from files. For ex. NTSC is always major in production against rest.

And no, the PS1 does not decode the music differently for different regions.

Sorry, but Revolution has the same, if I comparised, I can't remember now. I know that files are same! Thanks for checksums. :]

Oh, in that case, you're talking about the difference in audio modulation in the PAL/NTSC signals, and you prefer NTSC's audio. A rip of the source material will yield the exact same (and best!) result for both versions. If you prefer audio distorted by NTSC's audio modulation so much, you'll need to do a line-in rip.

The console does not decode it differently. The decoder was made from official PS2 specifications, and works exactly like how it does on an actual PS2.

But PS2 has completly different architecture, soundcard etc.

The architecture has nothing to do with the algorithm, which works the same way on different architectures. Sure, the sound card produces a slightly different output, distorted by the PAL/NTSC audio modulation which does not happen outside of a PS2, but you fail to realize that during development, Eric Chevalier's music was directly converted from the source WAV files to the PS1 sound files found on the disc (which is decoded on a PS1 afterwards). This means that decoding it on a PC is actually the closest you can get to the source audio!

As I said before, the current rip on RayTunes is a direct (native as you call it) rip of the Dreamcast version... (except for the Revolution-specific tracks)

All files there has bad quality there and worse than line-in DC rip. I was suprised that fact. It's confirms only that unpacking from whatever source gives bad results. Only capturing while playing. If you really gave DC files there.. Do you have still only this DC files somewhere? But it's seems that it's no sense.

Here are two example tracks from the Dreamcast version: https://app.box.com/s/xiors159wficfwvdbzjf
As you can see, they're simple WAV PCM files, which, as we both know, is far better quality than the ADPCM found in all of the other versions.
Even nicer is that these files are directly from the disc, and were not packed by any means. All of the segmented tracks are stored in DCZ files, but not compressed. They are also WAV PCM files.

YouTube encodes audio for SD videos in worse quality than audio for HD videos.

No more. Now If you have rendered file by You Tube, it has good quality even when you give there <720p. That was the other day.

You're right, I shouldn't have said SD, but <480p. YouTube's audio encoding is okay from 480p on, but is definitely still worse for 360p. Also, remember that the source videos were encoded before they were posted to YouTube as well.

And because it was recorded during capturing while playing I said that I don't have 100% sure. It wasn't good quality there. If you have opportunity, why to not try to get this files and find out. Maybe they decoding well on Windows. Have you touched R3 HD files already, or this is your assumptions?

Unlike you, I don't assume these things. I was very interested in R3 HD's audio when it came out (also thanks to Ubisoft saying the audio was remastered), so I immediately extracted the source files to check. Unsurprisingly, it didn't sound better than before at all. I am 100% sure they are not remastered.

And what is better quality of R2, DC or PS2? Maybe it's better to emulate DC.

DC, because the source is uncompressed PCM, while PS2 uses ADPCM. It's better to get the files directly from the disc as I did, because emulation will distort the audio.

Curiosity (DC version): -

I never had so much trouble on a release, it cost me the whole day. Music are packaged in a strange DCZ format, that I've never seen before. Fortunately, I found a set of tools to uncompress and compress them back. Uncompressing was alright, then I converted the music and compressed back. When I went testing, music was not playing. After a lot of time I really found out the reason: the utility I was using to pack the DCZ was not working correctly. So what to do now? Can you guess? Yeah, figure out the DCZ format by myself and pack them back. After some hours, I finally understood the format (the cool part (<- sarcasm) is that there was no data about it on internet),
and could figure out how to pack my music back properly. After some (more) hours, I finished programming my utility to pack DCZ, and I could finish the release.

This is wrong - the DCZ files are not compressed. Rather, they are bigfiles that contain a list of segments and offsets, followed by the actual segment data.
The segments being stored in the DCZ files has nothing to do with the encoding of the files, but rather with better seek times, since all of the data that belongs together is stored together.

About you saying that my Revolution rip sounds worse than in-game, how about an actual recording and/or comparison of it so we can all see what you're talking about? :/

[deton24]

A rip of the source material will yield the exact same (and best!) result for both versions.

It turns out that the opposite is true

If you prefer audio distorted by NTSC's audio modulation so much, you'll need to do a line-in rip.

I working on it.

Sure, the sound card produces a slightly different output, distorted by the PAL/NTSC audio modulation which does not happen outside of a PS2, but you fail to realize that during development, Eric Chevalier's music was directly converted from the source WAV files to the PS1 sound files found on the disc (which is decoded on a PS1 afterwards). This means that decoding it on a PC is actually the closest you can get to the source audio!

Ohhh, but they are not the same files! Compressed vs 1411 PCM original (propably). It's not mean that PC decode is closer way because source files was 44\16?\1411 PCM...
But with modulation you hit. Maybe it's cause.

And what is better quality of R2, DC or PS2? Maybe it's better to emulate DC.

DC, because the source is uncompressed PCM, while PS2 uses ADPCM.

Remember that it's not classic PCM 1411 wave like in Audio CD. One of these files are exacly as I had in Max Payne 2, and they was differently played then! They're have 352kbps and 705kbps. I'm not suggest that they're not uncompressed. They are different than other uncompressed, because of bitrate. One of them is sure compressed, second maybe not, because of sample rate, then maybe is lower bitrate. Last modified 1999 year. Cool Ok, they are pretty the same like in your Revolution rip. Still worse than Kooz's line-in rip of the same files. Why? "Decoding it on a PC is actually the closest you can get to the source audio!"? No!

emulation will distort the audio.

Absolutly not. Unless you wrong setup plugins. It's like a line-in, even better. Long to explain. Much more I can do with music on computer than with console, and there is no distortions.

how about an actual recording and/or comparison of it so we can all see what you're talking about? :/

You had. Fairy Glade was from PCSX2. PSX is better..

Code: Select all

https://www.dropbox.com/s/08zuh6m3iax5shp/Fairy%20Glade.mp3

Substract that drums. I working on it.
Previous original was Kooz's. Now yours, worse -

Code: Select all

https://www.dropbox.com/s/crarfprllmxba4p/013%20-%20The%20Fairy%20Glade.mp3

Enough?
Maybe you want 24/96 waves.. They're better...

[Droolie]

A rip of the source material will yield the exact same (and best!) result for both versions.

It turns out that the opposite is true

How so? The source material is the files, and the files are the same as I proved, so a rip of that will give the same result.
If you're talking about it not being the best result, you still didn't prove that. :/

Sure, the sound card produces a slightly different output, distorted by the PAL/NTSC audio modulation which does not happen outside of a PS2, but you fail to realize that during development, Eric Chevalier's music was directly converted from the source WAV files to the PS1 sound files found on the disc (which is decoded on a PS1 afterwards). This means that decoding it on a PC is actually the closest you can get to the source audio!

Ohhh, but they are not the same files! Compressed vs 1411 PCM original (propably). It's not mean that PC decode is closer way because source files was 44\16?\1411 PCM...

That's not my point. Of course they are not the same files. But decoding on a PC with a decoder based on official PS2 specifications will yield the very same result as the internal decoding on a PS2 before the data is streamed to your TV - so before audio modulation (which is an extra distortion) is applied to it. The algorithm doesn't work differently despite the different architecture. If you read my post again, you'll see that I said the result of the algorithm is closest - not equal - to the source, compared to what you hear through a PS2, because of the audio modulation.

And what is better quality of R2, DC or PS2? Maybe it's better to emulate DC.

DC, because the source is uncompressed PCM, while PS2 uses ADPCM.

Remember that it's not classic PCM 1411 wave like in Audio CD. One of these files are exacly as I had in Max Payne 2, and they was differently played then! They're have 352kbps and 705kbps. I'm not suggest that they're not uncompressed. They are different than other uncompressed, because of bitrate. One of them is sure compressed, second maybe not, because of sample rate, then maybe is lower bitrate.

No, they both play at 706kbps (half of 1412kbps), and that's because the sample rate is 22050Hz (half of the normal 44100Hz). This means it's like audio CD quality for that sample rate. The only version with a better sample rate is the PS1 version, but as I said the music in that is abridged as hell and unusable for a complete soundtrack.

Still worse than Kooz's line-in rip of the same files. Why? "Decoding it on a PC is actually the closest you can get to the source audio!"? No!

Let me remind you that you still didn't prove that it's worse than Kooz's rip.

emulation will distort the audio.

Absolutly not. Unless you wrong setup plugins. It's like a line-in, even better. Long to explain. Much more I can do with music on computer than with console, and there is no distortions.

I am talking about how an inconsistent framerate usually makes the sound system play faster or slower than usual. It's possible that nullDC has some kind of fix for that or is stable enough now to run at a consistent framerate, but it wasn't back when I tried it. It's been a while since I used it.
As an example of what I'm saying, I'd like to point out that the audio pops at 0:10 in your remastered version of Kooz's line-in recording, and several times around 1:39, most likely due to a framerate inconsistency in the actual game (and hence also in the emulator). Further emulation would only introduce more framerate inconsistencies, so that's not good at all.

how about an actual recording and/or comparison of it so we can all see what you're talking about? :/

You had. Fairy Glade was from PCSX2. PSX is better..

Code: Select all

https://www.dropbox.com/s/08zuh6m3iax5shp/Fairy%20Glade.mp3

Substract that drums. I working on it.
Previous original was Kooz's. Now yours, worse -

Code: Select all

https://www.dropbox.com/s/crarfprllmxba4p/013%20-%20The%20Fairy%20Glade.mp3

Enough?
Maybe you want 24/96 waves.. They're better...

First of all, the recording you linked to is the one you said you remastered. That doesn't prove anything about my rip being worse than Kooz's line-in rip.
This was the file in Kooz's original DC rip, right?

Code: Select all

https://www.dropbox.com/sh/od3djmk4xkhszto/AACKB7AhGxuFMO7Ai1dP4VaVa/07%20-%20The%20Fairy%20Glade%20-%20Part%201.mp3

Second, you're using an mp3 file while the FLAC version of my rip is available on RayTunes.
Third, as I said before, kooz's rip has various pops and clicks in it, while mine doesn't. The one at 7:15 in the track above is a good example.
Fourth: kooz's rip has a lot of analog noise. To illustrate this, I did a spectral analysis just for you: this is the result from Kooz's Fairy Glade track, and this is from mine (note that this is using the MP3 files!). Notice the band of frequencies from 12kHz to 16kHz in kooz's file, and several high-frequency pops in the middle of the track? That's analog noise. My track doesn't have that, except for an almost invisible bit of noise at 1:27 and this is purely due to the MP3 compression - the original FLAC file doesn't even have those frequencies!

[deton24]

Terrible... Hell's coming. Our yearbook is really stubborn
Man, I hearing that difference in front of me..
Even CT developer of drivers made special drivers to enchcance crystalizer on my soundcard for my request, when I found fault in his newer versions during doing these tweaks. Every people at hardwareheaven.com are happy. Everything because of Rayman
http://www.hardwareheaven.com/community ... ts.226736/
result -
http://www.hardwareheaven.com/community ... us.226833/
haha. Poetry

Ok. Let's pratice my English...
One thing. I didn't playing this DC files via VGMSTREAM!
Thanks be to God, I got plugin with that decoder for my Foobar to good comparise. There will be a lot of mess with command line and libraries...
Decoder! Other decoder! And... -
nothing. DSP checked, in menu appeared vgmstream, but everything is like before.
Have you noticed change in quality when you run DC files in VGMSTREAM or on usual player?

A rip of the source material will yield the exact same (and best!) result for both versions.

It turns out that the opposite is true


How so? The source material is the files, and the files are the same as I proved, so a rip of that will give the same result.

Right. There will be no other opportunity to get other files. Your DC->VGM->[whatever]->MP3. But these waves are decoded by console/emulator different. There is audible difference between them.

But decoding on a PC with a decoder based on official PS2 specifications will yield the very same result as the internal decoding on a PS2 before the data is streamed to your TV

Temporary I can't run VGM via command line. Maybe with me player is something wrong. It will took long time before I set this up. I guess faster will be extract PSX files... please. I only want to look around there..

No, they both play at 706kbps (half of 1412kbps), and that's because the sample rate is 22050Hz (half of the normal 44100Hz)

Nope. Look at files desriptions. Second is 352 kbps PCM, not ADPCM. One is uncompressed, second no. First need good decoder for this unstandard samplerate/method of encoding. The same thing was with Max Payne. Maybe VGM is that decoder.

I am talking about how an inconsistent framerate usually makes the sound system play faster or slower than usual.

PCSX2 sound plugin allows you to set up how sound should behave when framerate/smoothness is various. There is no distortion thanks to this.

the audio pops at 0:10 in your remastered version of Kooz's line-in recording, and several times around 1:39, most likely due to a framerate inconsistency in the actual game (and hence also in the emulator). Further emulation would only introduce more framerate inconsistencies, so that's not good at all.

No, no. If I understood you well. It's because game plays different parts of music on various parts of level. If you would have right, there will be stretching problems (to slow, to fast, audible distorions)

First of all, the recording you linked to is the one you said you remastered. That doesn't prove anything about my rip being worse than Kooz's line-in rip.

Have you really comparised these two files? Please.. R U trolling me?..

Second, you're using an mp3 file while the FLAC version of my rip is available on RayTunes.

It's not introduces anything. In these case flac will be usefull when you would compress it to bitrate 96kbps mp3. They are 256. Unrecognizable bitrate vs flac in usual good high quality music.

Notice the band of frequencies from 12kHz to 16kHz in kooz's file, and several high-frequency pops in the middle of the track?

Doesn't matter. I eliminating these in eq. That's that hiss what I mentioned...

My track doesn't have that

And most of band which causes better quality.
Homever. Respect for your knowledge.
Hah, you know why Kooz have better quality? Because your files are finishing at 11khz, his at 16 khz. Thats good proof. Thats not analog noise! How did you hit upon such an idea?! You should see that kind of distortions in audacity. It seems different. I can't relate to this spectograms deeply for now. You know what? I guess that we just speaking too much, and doing not enough, and too young too speak as this many. We losing then something most important. True. I see her in front of me.
The only what I need is PSX R2 (whatever region in this case, we both prove it)
and R3 PS2. Would you be so kind and do it? These can take some time for arguing longer. And.. sorry for my tone. I would like to be good and kind but I'm exited.
Here you have my 24/96 Fairy Glade. Wages 2/5 of all R2 disc:

Code: Select all

https://www.dropbox.com/s/mtz2sbckadrdajt/Audio%202014-02-20%2008-04-00%20nmr.wav

Have you heard a difference?

[Droolie]

One thing. I didn't playing this DC files via VGMSTREAM!
Thanks be to God, I got plugin with that decoder for my Foobar to good comparise. There will be a lot of mess with command line and libraries...
Decoder! Other decoder! And... -
nothing. DSP checked, in menu appeared vgmstream, but everything is like before.
Have you noticed change in quality when you run DC files in VGMSTREAM or on usual player?

Those are regular wav files, VGMStream does nothing for those. So no, I just used my usual player.

A rip of the source material will yield the exact same (and best!) result for both versions.

It turns out that the opposite is true

How so? The source material is the files, and the files are the same as I proved, so a rip of that will give the same result.

Right. There will be no other opportunity to get other files. Your DC->VGM->[whatever]->MP3. But these waves are decoded by console/emulator different. There is audible difference between them.

What you quoted was about the difference between the NTSC and PAL PS1 versions, and now you're talking about the DC version? Start making sense please...

But decoding on a PC with a decoder based on official PS2 specifications will yield the very same result as the internal decoding on a PS2 before the data is streamed to your TV

Temporary I can't run VGM via command line. Maybe with me player is something wrong. It will took long time before I set this up. I guess faster will be extract PSX files... please. I only want to look around there..

Not when you act this way, no. As I said, that's not an attitude to ask someone for help. If you know so much about these things, I'm pretty sure you should be able to so get your problems fixed.

No, they both play at 706kbps (half of 1412kbps), and that's because the sample rate is 22050Hz (half of the normal 44100Hz)

Nope. Look at files desriptions. Second is 352 kbps PCM, not ADPCM. One is uncompressed, second no. First need good decoder for this unstandard samplerate/method of encoding. The same thing was with Max Payne. Maybe VGM is that decoder.

What are you using to get the bitrates? Because that's just plain wrong. Let me calculate the bitrate manually for you:

• JAIL10.WAV: The music is 106.680 seconds long. The size of the track is 9409208 bytes (=75273664 bits). 75273664/106.680 is about 705602. Since were talking about kilobits per second and not bits, it's that, divided by 1000. You do the math.
• JAILMUS.WAV: 89.521 seconds long, and 7895616 bytes large (=63164928 bits). 63164928/89.521 is about 705587. That is once again 706kbps. :/

It's true that the WAV files aren't standard containers (the header is slightly different), but the PCM data itself is, so that doesn't really matter.

I am talking about how an inconsistent framerate usually makes the sound system play faster or slower than usual.

PCSX2 sound plugin allows you to set up how sound should behave when framerate/smoothness is various. There is no distortion thanks to this.

Does nullDC (or any other Dreamcast emulator) have this? As you were talking about Dreamcast emulation... if it does, that's new and pretty awesome.

the audio pops at 0:10 in your remastered version of Kooz's line-in recording, and several times around 1:39, most likely due to a framerate inconsistency in the actual game (and hence also in the emulator). Further emulation would only introduce more framerate inconsistencies, so that's not good at all.

No, no. If I understood you well. It's because game plays different parts of music on various parts of level. If you would have right, there will be stretching problems (to slow, to fast, audible distorions)

Audible distortions? Pops and clicks are audible (and visible on the spectrogram) distortions! You're right that it sometimes occurs between segments, but the pops and clicks I mentioned aren't on segment boundaries, so they're not caused by the game's audio engine jumping to different segment. This is definitely due to framerate inconsistencies. That stretching happens in PCSX2 (when not configured to adapt to variable framerate, as you said), but not on nullDC or the original Dreamcast as far as I know.

First of all, the recording you linked to is the one you said you remastered. That doesn't prove anything about my rip being worse than Kooz's line-in rip.

Have you really comparised these two files? Please.. R U trolling me?..

No, are you trolling me?
This is part of your first post in this topic:

Fairy Glade (part of song) -

Code: Select all

https://www.dropbox.com/s/08zuh6m3iax5shp/Fairy%20Glade.mp3

original (source) -

Code: Select all

https://www.dropbox.com/sh/od3djmk4xkhszto/AACKB7AhGxuFMO7Ai1dP4VaVa/07%20-%20The%20Fairy%20Glade%20-%20Part%201.mp3

eq, crystalized, complicated configuration of source - PCX2's Rayman Revolution (plugins etc.) (PSX has better quality - confirmed by me) still has some shortcomings - too loud drums (eq changes) and source is not perfect.

As you can see, you said the following link is a remastered version of the Fairy Glade track by Kooz.

Code: Select all

https://www.dropbox.com/s/08zuh6m3iax5shp/Fairy%20Glade.mp3

But then you used that same link again to "prove" that my gamerip has worse quality than Kooz's. You can't prove that by comparing a remaster to the original track. Of course, any good remaster will sound better than the original! But that's very unfair. Why didn't you just use Kooz's original rip for this comparison instead of your remaster?

Second, you're using an mp3 file while the FLAC version of my rip is available on RayTunes.

It's not introduces anything. In these case flac will be usefull when you would compress it to bitrate 96kbps mp3. They are 256. Unrecognizable bitrate vs flac in usual good high quality music.

Yes, you're right that it's not very useful. But the mp3 conversion still introduced a tiny amount of noise, as shown in the spectrograms.

Notice the band of frequencies from 12kHz to 16kHz in kooz's file, and several high-frequency pops in the middle of the track?

Doesn't matter. I eliminating these in eq. That's that hiss what I mentioned...

My track doesn't have that

And most of band which causes better quality.

Wait, what? You say it's hiss, yet it causes better quality? That's dumb. The hiss is generated by the digital to analog conversion in the sound card. I had called that "analog noise" but I guess the term is somewhat incorrect in this case.

And you're saying you eliminate the pops yourself? Are you comparing your remastered version to my gamerip again? Because as I said, a remastered version of course has better quality than a gamerip. You introduced it. :/

Hah, you know why Kooz have better quality? Because your files are finishing at 11khz, his at 16 khz. Thats good proof.

As I said, the hiss is introduced by the digital to analog conversion. It's not possible for the files to finish at anything over 11kHz, because the source files' sample rate is 22kHz (meaning the maximum frequency is 22kHz/2=11kHz). Any higher frequency is distortion and quite definitely not intended by the developers of the game.

The only what I need is PSX R2 (whatever region in this case, we both prove it)
and R3 PS2. Would you be so kind and do it? These can take some time for arguing longer.

R3 PS2, sure. I have been planning to do so for a long time, and it will be done this summer. It won't be an analog rip, but a digital rip like the R2 one you dislike so much. The Tonic Trouble one too. Sorry.
I have the R2 PS1 files but I'm definitely not converting them to PCM for someone like you.

Here you have my 24/96 Fairy Glade. Wages 2/5 of all R2 disc:

Code: Select all

https://www.dropbox.com/s/mtz2sbckadrdajt/Audio%202014-02-20%2008-04-00%20nmr.wav

Have you heard a difference?

Actually, that sounds really good. It sounds really crisp in some places. Nice work! It's a pity that it's riddled with the pops and clicks I mentioned though. And the maximum frequency in your file is about 24kHz, so you could just have made it a 48kHz file too.
Try doing the same with my file and I'm pretty sure you'll get better results.

[deton24]

What you quoted was about the difference between the NTSC and PAL PS1 versions, and now you're talking about the DC version? Start making sense please...

Yeah, thats correct. I'm stirring in it already... Actually, we can pin on the same for PSX, but I hope that 44khz files are decodes properly at PC...

Good calculate, and it proofs why these two files has same quality. Foobar shows that informations. They can be wrong.

Does nullDC (or any other Dreamcast emulator) have this? As you were talking about Dreamcast emulation... if it does, that's new and pretty awesome.

Now. I said about PS2 rev. DC emu should have it too.
I don't exacly now about what pops and clicks you saying. I've never noticed any kind of regular distortions, maybe from framerate inconsistencies.

As you can see, you said the following link is a remastered version of the Fairy Glade thing by Kooz.
CODE: SELECT ALL
https://www.dropbox.com/s/08zuh6m3iax5s ... 0Glade.mp3

But then you used that same link again to "prove" that my gamerip has worse quality than Kooz's.

Ah, that's that harder level of discussion. This is result of remastering. Now you seeing it. It's good. I'd never achieve that using your files as base. The only way to proof that since spectogram doesn't convincing you is trying to train you how to make a little remaster your self. If you have Eq raise all specifiend bands to at least 16k + 4,4 8k + 2,5, and more depends from your soundsystem. Do it for all files. Play files, you can raise treble somewhere during hearing if you have. What R U hearing? Yes. Kooz started sounds better, yours stopped and those band which have been cut off in your spectograms. It's explain why I can achieve good quality with your files.

But the mp3 conversion still introduced a tiny amount of noise, as shown in the spectrograms.

I't not worth to note.

Wait, what? You say it's hiss, yet it causes better quality? That's dumb.

Try yourself.. X-Fi Crystalizer doing miracles with these files, even eq does.

Are you comparing your remastered version to my gamerip again?

It was sure. Yes. I done it for enchance that soundtrack though.

It's not possible for the files to finish at anything over 11kHz, because the source files' sample rate is 22kHz (meaning the maximum frequency is 22kHz/2=11kHz)

DC files has 22khz? Culprit of better quality is unkown analog noise... There was somewhere post when someone resampled R2 files to higher sample rate and achieve better quality. Do you remember? It's only tip of the iceberg of course.

I guess faster will be extract PSX files... please.

Not when you act this way, no. As I said, that's not an attitude to ask someone for help.

Allright. You won. I'd like to pretend the proper attitude for ask you for advice and help with unpacking PS1 music from Rayman 2 without arguing. I'm sorry for my tone and would you be so kind to do it for me Bart? I'd be very greatful.

I'm pretty sure you should be able to so get your problems fixed.

Nope, I can't. I need your help.

[Droolie]

What you quoted was about the difference between the NTSC and PAL PS1 versions, and now you're talking about the DC version? Start making sense please...

Yeah, thats correct. I'm stirring in it already... Actually, we can pin on the same for PSX, but I hope that 44khz files are decodes properly at PC...

Of course they are decoded properly, where did you even get the idea that they are decoded differently than on the system itself? You just agreed in your post that on Dreamcast, analog noise is the cause of it sounding different than in my rip. Why can't you see that it's the same on PS1? :/

As you can see, you said the following link is a remastered version of the Fairy Glade track by Kooz.

Code: Select all

https://www.dropbox.com/s/08zuh6m3iax5shp/Fairy%20Glade.mp3

But then you used that same link again to "prove" that my gamerip has worse quality than Kooz's.

Ah, that's that harder level of discussion. This is result of remastering. Now you seeing it. It's good. I'd never achieve that using your files as base. The only way to proof that since spectogram doesn't convincing you is trying to train you how to make a little remaster your self. If you have Eq raise all specifiend bands to at least 16k + 4,4 8k + 2,5, and more depends from your soundsystem. Do it for all files. Play files, you can raise treble somewhere during hearing if you have. What R U hearing? Yes. Kooz started sounds better, yours stopped and those band which have been cut off in your spectograms. It's explain why I can achieve good quality with your files.

Hmm, I'm afraid I have more than three bands in my equalizer tool, so I can't follow your configuration. I think it'd be easier if you could do this (but properly). Can you provide a remaster (using the same settings) of a song using Kooz's files and a remaster of the same song using my files, and point out where exactly they sound different?

Wait, what? You say it's hiss, yet it causes better quality? That's dumb.

Try yourself.. X-Fi Crystalizer doing miracles with these files, even eq does.

Cool. Either way, you're saying that the extra hiss makes some remastering techniques work on it better. That does not prove that the quality of the audio with that extra hiss is better than the quality of the audio without it. You do know that X-Fi Crystalizer can yield worse results if the quality is actually better, right? As for the equalizer tool, have you actually tried another configuration?

Are you comparing your remastered version to my gamerip again?

It was sure. Yes. I done it for enchance that soundtrack though.

So you chose to compare your "enhanced" track to the source material to prove that yours sounded better? That's like taking a black-and-white image, colouring it and saying the coloured version looks better. Well, duh.

It's not possible for the files to finish at anything over 11kHz, because the source files' sample rate is 22kHz (meaning the maximum frequency is 22kHz/2=11kHz)

DC files has 22khz? Culprit of better quality is unkown analog noise... There was somewhere post when someone resampled R2 files to higher sample rate and achieve better quality. Do you remember? It's only tip of the iceberg of course.

Yeah, the DC files are 22kHz, but resampling to a higher sample rate will NOT yield better quality, ever. It can, however, make it more resistant to noise. But the extra compression needed to keep the filesize small will likely make the quality worse. It can happen that compression makes the audio sound better, but that's a subjective matter and very unlikely.
Anyway, this is not what's happening here as my mp3s are actually oversampled to 44kHz.

I guess faster will be extract PSX files... please.

Not when you act this way, no. As I said, that's not an attitude to ask someone for help.

Allright. You won. I'd like to pretend the proper attitude for ask you for advice and help with unpacking PS1 music from Rayman 2 without arguing. I'm sorry for my tone and would you be so kind to do it for me Bart? I'd be very greatful.

pretend

No.

[deton24]

where did you even get the idea that they are decoded differently than on the system itself?

From some unkown reason music on console/emulator sounds better

Why can't you see that it's the same on PS1? :/

Exacly as above. Your DC files are poor, Rev sounds the same. Both sounds better while playing.

It's explain why I can [CANT] achieve good quality with your files.

Mistake
Audacity has all needed bands.

Can you provide a remaster (using the same settings) of a song using Kooz's files and a remaster of the same song using my files, and point out where exactly they sound different?

Sure. But Rev as source is better. No problem. But it'll take me some time.
That was one thing which I haven't realize why you are still unconvinced.. :}

That does not prove that the quality of the audio with that extra hiss is better than the quality of the audio without it.

Proofs on remastering. Actually hiss is part of high's existing at higher bands 10>, which your files hasn't, we saw this on your spectogram.

You do know that X-Fi Crystalizer can yield worse results if the quality is actually better, right?

When file is very bad, we can achieve small improve (with eq too), when it's better, but still not too good, we can achieve huge enchance (eq too). When quality is good, I set Crystalizer to normal setting for usual listening, eq too. I enchancing old 128kbps this way. Results of old encoders, poor settings of encoder etc. Otherwise it's universal. We can always exaggerate. I catch it during setting.

As for the equalizer tool, have you actually tried another configuration?

Actually, we can set one specific eq and cr setting for specific R2 release, and we have better quality, we must find compromise throw all songs. Then is the harder process, not needed as this much, but appliable, eq for all single song, for that I need serious headphones.

So you chose to compare your "enhanced" track to the source material to prove that yours sounded better?

Have some fun with audacity eq to find out it if you don't realize diffrence between these raw files DC-Kooz/Your Rev

That's like taking a black-and-white image, colouring it and saying the coloured version looks better. Well, duh.

For listening without any modify it's not huge difference.

resampling to a higher sample rate will NOT yield better quality, ever

Not in result files what we have now, but during recording.
If don't mistake, just Kooz wrote that he knew that samplerate of his version was 22khz, so he should capture this way, but he tried at 44khz and revealed that quality is better, so console done something with this music. Better to keep all noise to possible cut it via editor program, not via downsample.

Anyway, this is not what's happening here as my mp3s are actually oversampled to 44kHz.

I have resampler DSP in my Foobar, and it's set to constant 96khz for all files. Result -better quality of all files. Not all soundcard work in 96khz.

pretend

No.

i mean take...
Try in google. Sorry for that. Otherwise, one my word has usually many synonyms in English, that's why it's easier language.
I'll try to enchance Kooz files. I'm loosing me time for capture Rev, but OK.

[Droolie]

Well, to be honest, I'm not going to keep replying to this. I spend hours deciphering your English every time. You don't understand how audio works, and I can't convince you of the truth. You may think the rips on RayTunes are poor for all I care. Try to do better if you can.
What you especially don't seem to realize is that the "added quality" (which I still don't think makes it better) by the hiss is not part of the original track, so it's false quality and not very useful for any rip that's supposed to be true to the original. If you really want better quality, you'll have to start using the PS1 version, and I'm not going to rip that for you, as I said before. You'll have to do it yourself or find someone else to do it.

[OCG]

I am surprised you even had patience to reply to all these idiotic posts before Droolie.

[deton24]

it's very rude of you. And from moderator i expected more professionalism in drawing hasty conclusions. Hasty attacking younger user is more comfortable. I met with that before.
Unless.

I spend hours deciphering your English every time.

Thank you so much for your interest and... patience.
And unbelief. I praticed writing a little.

What I had to write .. ahh

You may think the rips on RayTunes are poor for all I care. Try to do better if you can.

Thank you for first sign of respect that.

the hiss is not part of the original track, so it's false quality and not very useful for any rip that's supposed to be true to the original.

Hiss it's very contractual definition for that. Have you tried at least one of my proofs with sound? And yeas, it will be no pro audio-cd.
Still I have no interest since you have 'foch cos user with less practice pointed you out wrong judgments. Still we're to young to understand few matters. But few things has been clarified. And I remind that i still trying to help. I very sad your attitude. Sorry. I also dedicate my time and good word.
Wait for results.
Greetings, and feel free everyone to hating bellow. Thanks.
Maybe someone has more questions, or somebody made proofs.
For now we even exhausted topic from theoretical part.
I know how you are Droolie. You'd like to answer...

[Droolie]

I'm only being rude because you were. I would have attacked any user like this, even a moderator or an admin, if he had tried to tell me the RayTunes rips are poor with arguments like that. Even in your last post, you keep saying hiss is part of the original track, even though it's clear the source files don't have it. It's quite clear that higher frequencies got lost when downsampling the files to 22kHz during development, but it is not good practice to falsely reintroduce them by keeping the analog hiss. I won't expect you to understand this straight away. Ponder on it some more and maybe in the future, you'll understand what I tried to tell you in my past few posts, and then I'll gladly rip the R2 PS1 files for you.

[deton24]

I'm sorry for my rude.
I respect your superiority.
I offended you.
I become rude when I spoke.
I was impatient
and incautious.
Humility is a virtue.