Talk:Resistance

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R1 fist charging

I just worked out that fully charging Rayman's fist in R1 quadruples its force. I checked out its effect on the clowns: when you hit a big clown with a fully-charged fist, he requires only four more standard punches to defeat, meaning that the first punch took away four of his eight hit points. It's also possible to defeat a water clown (which has exactly four hit points) with a single fully-charged punch. I'm still not sure how much damage a fully-charged golden fist does, or whether a semi-charged punch does more damage than a standard one. —Spiraldoor 16:08, 9 February 2011 (UTC)

I also know that a standard fist done with a jump while walking also does more damage than in soil. How much damage this gives? --Haruka 16:16, 9 February 2011 (UTC)
I'm pretty sure that a punch launched while Rayman is in the air does the same damage as a fully-charged fist launched while Rayman is standing on the ground. This is probably to compensate for the fact that he can't charge his fist while he's in the air. —Spiraldoor 17:53, 9 February 2011 (UTC)
Just as I was thinking, but a real confirmation would be welcomed. --Haruka 17:55, 9 February 2011 (UTC)
After a couple tries, I found out that punching when jumping inflicts 3 HP, as one punch when jumping followed by two standard punches are enough to defeat a stone man (5 HP). A punch with a golden fist inflicts 3 or 4 HP, since two are needed to defeat a stone man, while punching with a golden fist when jumping inflicts 5 HP or more, as only one is enough to defeat a stone man. Speed fists do not seem to influence the strength of Rayman's punches (fortunately for us!). Just in case you may be wondering, I did take into account the fact that punches need to be spaced out against stone men. We're getting closer :) —Hunchman801 18:01, 9 February 2011 (UTC)
Addendum: it takes 2 punches with a golden fist when jumping to defeat a moth (6 HP), which leads us to the conclusion that this attack inflicts 5 HP. Spiral, it seems that you can easily access big clowns (my savegame doesn't go past Twilight Gulch), so could you please (or anyone whose savegame allows them to access Candy Château):
  • See if a fully charged punch with a golden fist is enough to defeat a big clown; if yes, then the damage dealt by this attack is 8 HP or more,
  • See how many simple punches with a golden fist are needed to defeat a big blown; if it's two, then the attack inflicts 4 HP, and if it's three, then the attack inflicts 3 HP?
Thank you! —Hunchman801 18:58, 9 February 2011 (UTC)
Defeating a big clown requires either two fully-charged golden-fist punches, or three standard golden-fist punches. Therefore the fully-charged golden-fist punch must do somewhere between 4 and 7 HP of damage, and the standard golden-fist punch must do exactly 3 HP of damage. I'm inclined to assume that the fully-charged golden-fist punch does 6 HP, and I should be able to confirm that in a moment. —Spiraldoor 19:57, 9 February 2011 (UTC)
All right, it turns out that a big clown which has been hit with a fully-charged golden fist requires only one more standard golden-fist punch to be defeated. I'd forgotten that there was no way to get rid of a golden fist without dying, so it's not possible to hit a big clown with a fully-charged golden fist and then keep hitting him with standard punches to see how many hit points he has left (which is what I planned to do). We now know that a fully-charged golden fist does either 6 or 7 HP of damage. —Spiraldoor 20:07, 9 February 2011 (UTC)
Great, we're almost there. On your last sentence: couldn't it be 5 as well (as implausible as it is)? A simple punch with a golden fist inflicts 3 hit points, and 5 + 3 = 8 damage are enough to defeat a big clown. I'm afraid there's only one way to find out: creating a map in Rayman Designer with a big clown and a golden fist close to each other (I don't think there is any such place in the original game), so that it is possible to hit the clown with regular fists first. —Hunchman801 20:23, 9 February 2011 (UTC)
Yes, that's right. For a moment there I thought my last investigation had ruled out the 5 HP possibility, but looking back, I'm not sure precisely how I arrived at that conclusion. All three clown types appear exclusively in the third part of Mr Dark's Dare, which is completely devoid of golden fists. We will need to use Rayman Designer to get definitive confirmation, but I don't have the game myself. —Spiraldoor 20:42, 9 February 2011 (UTC)
If you guys tell me what you essencially want to know I can test it for myself since I have got Rayman Designer. --Haruka 21:44, 9 February 2011 (UTC)
It's actually very simple: all you have to do is create a map with a large platform, a golden fist and a big clown. Then, for X = 3, 2, 1 and 0, play the map, punch the clown with a standard fist (not when jumping, full frontal and not charged) X times, get the golden fist and punch him with a fully charged fist, then exit the map. Write down, for each value of X, whether the clown is still alive after the above instructions.
Also, I can confirm that a fully charged punch with a golden fist deals at least 6 damage, as it is enough to defeat a moth. But well, it's still worth double checking on the clown.
Hunchman801 22:06, 9 February 2011 (UTC)
Addendum: something interesting is that if the damage dealt by a fully charged golden fist proved to be 6 (7 seems much less likely to me), then the golden fist would actually increase the damage by 2 HP in all cases, and so would punching when jumping. —Hunchman801 01:26, 10 February 2011 (UTC)
Sorry for the delay. I have been studying like crazy in these last days because of tomorrow's test I must do but I've done what you asked. (I hope I did all correctly) I tried to do standard punches X number of times and after a single fully charged golden fist. The Clown survived in "X = 0" and "X = 1". In "X = 2" and "X = 3" he got defeated. --Haruka 21:53, 10 February 2011 (UTC)
Awesome Haruka, thanks a lot for your help! This clearly proves that the damage dealt by a fully charged golden fist is 6 HP, which now allows us to provide extensive information about the strength of Rayman's fist in the original game! :D —Hunchman801 22:17, 10 February 2011 (UTC)

Revolution

Hi there!

I'm quite concerned by the way we should deal with enemies' resistance in Revolution. The problem is that each upgrade for Rayman's fist also increases its power: a blue shot is thrice as powerful as a white shot, a yellow shot and a charged blue shot are thrice as powerful as a blue shot, a charged yellow shot and a Power Fist-empowered yellow shot are thrice as powerful as a yellow shot, and a Power Fist-empowered charged yellow shot is probably twice as powerful as a charged yellow shot (I haven't been able to check yet). Therefore, a charged yellow shot is worth 27 white shots! This leads to an exponential increase in the pirates' resistance: while green Henchmen take 2 white shots, purple ones take 6, yellow ones take 18 (equivalent) and red ones take 54 (equivalent), not to mention barrel pirates (around 120-130)!!

We cannot really use these figures as their resistance: let's consider the example of spiders. They take 6 yellow shots to defeat, which would mean 6 HP in the original and 54 HP in Revolution, for the same effective resistance. However, if we align ourselves on the power of yellow shots, green and purple Henchmen would respectively have a ridiculous 0.222 and 0.666 HP. While this is more realistic when compared to the other versions, how could we deal with non-integers? Rounding them up to 1 HP isn't entirely satisfactory, even though this has been done for enemies such as Hecklers (16.25 rounded up to 17) and Lavomatrixes (8.75 rounded up to 9).

So, should we:

  • take white shots as a reference, leading us to use staggeringly high figures?
  • take yellow shots as a reference, leading us to deal with numbers smaller than one?
  • take blue shots as a reference, leading to both too small and too high figures?
  • take any other value as a reference?
  • ignore the power increase and consider that all Henchman 800s have 6 HP, unless maybe green Henchmen with 2 HP (and take yellow shots as a reference for stronger enemies)?
  • use any other scale (e.g. logarithmic)?
  • do anything else?

I seriously count on you guys to share your views on this dodgy problem! Thank you =) —RRRGBAIcon8.pngRRRGBAIcon0.gifRRRGBAIcon1.png 23:56, 26 March 2011 (UTC)

It sounds to me as if Revolution's resistance system is not even internally consistent, so reconciling it with that of the original version will be a difficult task. It seems that the resistance values up until the point where Rayman's magic fist is upgraded to blue can be accepted at face value, but some other system will have to be found for calculating enemies' resistance to the more powerful shots. Do the resistances of Rayman's enemies increase at the same rate as the strength of his magic fist (eg – when Rayman's magic fist doubles in strength, do his enemies also double in resistance)? Or is their progression more complicated (either greater or lesser)? If we can find exactly how much their resistances increase relative to the strength of Rayman's fist, perhaps we could come up with some coherent system of measurement? —Spiraldoor IconSpiralDoor.png 13:10, 27 March 2011 (UTC)
I agree with you on the fact that this scale hardly makes sense; how could some pirates be 27 times as resistant as others? Enemies' resistance kinda follow the increase in power of Rayman's fist, but not exactly I'm afraid. At first, Rayman encounters green and purple pirates (respectively 2 and 6 white shots). After his second Silver Lum, he faces off purple and yellow pirates (respectively 2 and 6 blue shots), as well as green pirates which he can defeat in one shot. And finally, he has to fight yellow and red pirates (respectively 2 and 6 yellow shots), as well as green and purple pirates which he can defeat in one shot. Another problem is that white and blue energy balls are still present as rebounding shots after Rayman's fist has been upgraded to its full power, making it hard to ignore the much lower damage they inflict. —RRRGBAIcon8.pngRRRGBAIcon0.gifRRRGBAIcon1.png 14:47, 27 March 2011 (UTC)
If the white and blue energy spheres are still in play when Rayman has maximised the power of his magic fist, then there's no way we can get around the insanely high resistances of the later Robo-Pirates. Am I to take it that the Barrel Pirates near the end of the game can withstand up to 120–130 hits from Rayman's reflected white spheres? This is impossible to avoid if it's the case. I think we can chalk this entire mess up to Revolution's dubious canonicity – maybe we could add these extremely high resistances to the list of Robo-Pirates, but have a paragraph at the start of the page explaining the situation to the readers and mentioning that these values should be taken with a pinch of salt? The only problem with this solution is that it would leave the article looking highly imbalanced, and may mislead casual readers as to the actual resistance of the Robo-Pirates. Perhaps we could create a separate section on the list for Revolution – or even separate sections for every version? —Spiraldoor IconSpiralDoor.png 15:46, 27 March 2011 (UTC)
I think we agree on the fact that we will have to take into account the very scale used in Revolution, however it still leaves us choice on which shots to take at face value when considering a pirate's resistance. White, blue or yellow? A way to solve this problem would be to consider that one hit point in Revolution should be equivalent to one hit point in the other versions, in terms of power. While choosing blue shots seems like an in-between insufficient solution, we have to wonder which is the most logical: Rayman's very first shots being 9 times as weak or his full-power shots being 9 times as powerful? Since Rayman has lost his powers at the beginning of the game, it sounds acceptable to me that he gradually recovers them in Revolution, while I really fail to see how his final shots would increase ninefold in power compared to the other versions; that's Ly on steroids to me. Other reasons include the fact that a system based on the number of yellow shots would be entirely coherent in every single level once Rayman has been given the Silver Lum by Globox (other systems being only coherent in certain levels), as well as the apparent equivalence with other versions when considering, for example, spiders with 6 HP in both systems (spiders in Revolution being nine times as resistant may alert the world anti-doping agency). The only drawback is the very low resistance of green and purple Henchmen (respectively 2/9 and 2/3), while that of yellow and red Henchmen would be more acceptable (respectively 2 and 6). I suggest rounding up the first two numbers at 1 HP, while always mentioning the actual figure and/or the number of shots of the pertinent colour. How about using grouped reference tags for this? —RRRGBAIcon8.pngRRRGBAIcon0.gifRRRGBAIcon1.png 01:47, 28 March 2011 (UTC)

Globox

Yo dawgs.

I've been recently watching some of Haruka's videos (take the following, for example: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=OZ4vDWwjdjk&feature=related) and notice that Globox takes an active part in combat (when he's sloshed on plum juice, of course, or he'll just run away). How powerful is he when he's drunk (because he kills a Hoodmonger Soldier in one hit)? --iHeckler9Life.gif 14:02, 24 April 2011 (UTC)

Hmmm, interesting question. As far as I can remember, Hoodlums also have a determined number of resistance in Rayman Hoodlum's Revenge. Maybe some hacking could help? --Sparkle.gifHarukaSparkle.gif 20:00, 24 April 2011 (UTC)
Well it beats me why he drinks the stuff anyway. He's supposed to be allergic to it, but in the video he drinks several kegs of it. --iHeckler9Life.gif 20:03, 24 April 2011 (UTC)
Hoodmongers have 3 HP in this game, that's all I know. —RRRGBAIcon8.pngRRRGBAIcon0.gifRRRGBAIcon1.png 23:31, 24 April 2011 (UTC)

Rayman Origins' case

I was reading the Blowfish article, and I have something to debate. If by playing normally these can be defeated with a fist/slap/magic, while in Moskito ridings it takes four shots, I think we should mention both resistances in the tables for enemies who also appear in Moskito riding levels. What do you guys think? —Preceding unsigned comment added by Haruka (talkcontribs) 23:49, 15 December 2011

Without a doubt. But some enemies only appear in the Moskito sections, and some don't appear in them. Thus, to find an accurate resistance for both of these, we need to find out how much Moskito's attacks do. --iHeckler9Life.gif 08:25, 16 December 2011 (UTC)
It seems that a regular attack is equivalent to four Moskito shots, we have to make sure about it though. Also, some attacks destroy cages instantly while others don't, so could there be a certain hierarchy? —RRRGBAIcon8.pngRRRGBAIcon0.gifRRRGBAIcon1.png 17:00, 16 December 2011 (UTC)

Power Fist in Revolution

It seems that a fully charged Power Fist-empowered shot in Revolution deals more damage than in the other versions. Could someone try (preferably on an emulator) to hit a Barrel Pirate with a Power Fist-empowered simple shot, a medium-charged Power Fist-empowered shot and a fully charged Power Fist-empowered shot? Thanks in advance. It would also be nice to see if Accumulation 1 and 2 have any effect on the damage taken. —RRRGBAIcon8.pngRRRGBAIcon0.gifRRRGBAIcon1.png 18:56, 5 April 2012 (CEST)

Well, I wonder who could be up to the job. :P --iHeckler9Life.gif 12:02, 6 April 2012 (CEST)
I think Accumulation 2's explosion helps to give even more damage to the enemies that are caught in its impact area. --Sparkle.gifHarukaSparkle.gif 13:26, 6 April 2012 (CEST)
I don't understand your remark, Haruka. With Accumulation 1, I don't think the surrounding enemies are damaged, so they are necessarily “more damaged” with Accumulation 2. I simply happen to wonder how much damage they take compared to the main target, even though the answer is probably as much. In fact, we need to know how much damage is dealt by:
  • a Power Fist-empowered simple shot with Accumulation 1
  • a fully charged Power Fist-empowered shot with Accumulation 1
  • a Power Fist-empowered simple shot with Accumulation 2
  • a fully charged Power Fist-empowered shot with Accumulation 2
Don't forget to turn off rebounds! This should give us all the information we need. —RRRGBAIcon8.pngRRRGBAIcon0.gifRRRGBAIcon1.png 16:47, 6 April 2012 (CEST)
Anyone? —RRRGBAIcon8.pngRRRGBAIcon0.gifRRRGBAIcon1.png 13:19, 29 April 2012 (CEST)
I could try to have that in mind for the near future, but for now it is a bit complicated. Month of tests, next month I have final exams... I need to see if I can grab a break time in order to make these experiments, but I can't promise a date. --Sparkle.gifHarukaSparkle.gif 21:17, 1 May 2012 (CEST)
Right, I can do it now, so let me get this clear: You need to know all the things in bullet points? --iHeckler9Life.gif 12:31, 7 May 2012 (CEST)
My results!
After a Power Fist enhanced Accumulation 1 shot: [1]
After a fully charged Power Fist enhanced shot with Accumulation 1: [2]
After a Power Fist enhanced Accumulation 2 shot: [3]
After a fully charged Power Fist enhanced shot with Accumulation 2: [4]
Make of them what you will. --iHeckler9Life.gif 15:39, 7 May 2012 (CEST)
Thanks a lot for taking care of this! It's quite hard to get accurate figures from photographs, but it looks like it's 3, 9, 3 and 12 damage (out of ~13.22), what do you think? You turned off rebounds, right? These results make sense, at least by Revolution's standards. —RRRGBAIcon8.pngRRRGBAIcon0.gifRRRGBAIcon1.png 16:01, 21 May 2012 (CEST)

In Rayman Legends

Has anyone figured how damage works in Legends? According to the French article, a Francky takes three hits if the player is standing still, but only one if they're running or jumping (kinda reminiscent of damage in the original game). Just wondering if anyone has useful information to add to that. —RRRGBAIcon8.pngRRRGBAIcon0.gifRRRGBAIcon1.png 19:19, 8 May 2019 (CEST)