Rayman 3 scores

Dildo_Potter · Aug 29, 2016

Thanks for the explanations guys, for LOTLD and LS. It's a great idea in LS, someone will manage it sooner or later :wink:

Cut, your video is really helpful, I mean I understand the details of each of your moves. 1234, I'll do my best in part 5, maybe an easier version :wink:

Maz, thanks for the support. By the way, you are exceptionally quick

excellent score. I was wondering, are you against glitches or what?

1234 said:
By the way, did you get too many points in part 3, so that you had to search for a way to finish part 4 with 0 points?

Indeed

, I got so many points :lol:

that I had to stop scoring at mid-level :lol:

and I got to skip part 4 :bitchplease: with my secret secret shared here

Edit:

1234 said:
In part 2 I'd say that about 46,360 points are possible when you want to play completely sick combos. With somewhat "normal" combos you'd lose 1k-2k.
In part 3 you can collect 3,820 points before the final combo. In the optimal case (that means you need the sick combos in part 2) you could have 96,170 points before playing the final combo.

I wasn't paying paying much attention to part 2, and now that I'm familiar with part 2, I wonder what are you planning but I didn't find a video about it on your channel. That must be freaking interesting, given I only got 27+k at part 2 myself.

Cut · Aug 29, 2016

My calculations yield 29.300 after part 1. You can include one red gem into the shoe-combo, because it's possible to reach the Green Gems in the secret room in time while only taking one yellow gem before. The biggest issue with that is the correct movement in the secret room, because rayman's response to the keys seem to be inverted in this room due to weird camera angle, making the required precise movement for this very hard. That's an extra 50 points. Then, you can get the lonely crown in the starting room in combo with the 3 other crowns in the room behind the 3rd door, even though the timing on the teleport is RNG-based (this is the reason I "only" have 43.180 points). So that's 70 points extra, I'm not quite sure where the other 20 are coming from?

Also, I think the maximum isn't considered to be 43.200 points anyway, that figure seems outdated to me. I'm not sure if I discussed this in this forum or in the skype group (probably the latter) so I guess since there is stuff in part 3 that I wanted to try anyway, I should overhaul all the LS scores to clear this situation up?

Maz · Aug 29, 2016

Thanks for the quick reply. Oddly enough, with that new information, I calculated 43.230 Points... 29.300 after Part 1, 35.270 after Part 2, and 43.230 after Part 3 :?:

Edit: Scrolled down and saw that you seem to have edited your post. I'll leave the text above as it is though. I guess and update for LS would be nice if that's not asking too much. Maybe we can work out some differences for an even better total Score.

@ Potter: It's not like I'm against Glitches, it's just that after IPGs and PCMs were discovered, there was a big discussion on whether certain Glitches should be banned etc. This got me thinking and I figured it would be a fun little project to try and see how far I could get without using any Glitches, which is why I'm currently doing this.

@ 1234: With that "new" Score for LS, I came to the following maximum Scores:

FC: 49.350 (maxed)
CF: 111.070 (potentially improvable by a few 100s)
BOM: 85.769 (maxed, unless there's some crazy shit I overlooked)
LOTLD: 121.099 (maxed)
DOTK: 109.789 (maxed)
LS: 43.230 (potentially improvable)
HH: 109.009 (maxed)
TOTL: 104.499 (maxed)

Total: 838.834

1234 · Aug 30, 2016

This evening I could play a little bit, so I made a video in DOTK3. After I've taken the 3 gems from the beginning, I had to renew the lockjaw, because otherwise the powerup would run out during the vine combo.

Maz said:
@ 1234: With that "new" Score for LS, I came to the following maximum Scores: [...]

Thanks, nice to see this! However SBTC is missing in your list ..., the max you've calculated for the level is 105019 I guess.

That means that now you can only improve FC, CF, BOM (by 49 points), LS and SBTC. Why do you actually have exactly 99.999 points in SBTC?
And gratulations on your new scores in FC and BOM, that was really fast. :shock:

Dildo_Potter said:
Indeed , I got so many points that I had to stop scoring at mid-level and I got to skip part 4 :bitchplease: with my secret secret shared here

As far as I remember, I saw this trick once in a speedrunner video, but great that you've found it as well; also nice video title, this should be definitely the official name of the glitch!

Dildo_Potter said:
I wasn't paying paying much attention to part 2, and now that I'm familiar with part 2, I wonder what are you planning but I didn't find a video about it on your channel. That must be freaking interesting, give I only got 27+k at part 2 myself.

I'm still trying to record some attempts of the combos, so yet there isn't a video about it on my channel. The most improvements are due to some glitches: In the first area there is the superswim glitch (I think you recorded this glitch some years ago), and in the balloon room and the room with the grim keeper you can get out of bounds and return to the first area by performing a superjump. That means you take the lockjaw, perform the superswim glitch, swim whereever you like, play a combo with the lockjaw and return to the beginning with help of a SJ. The difficulty of the combos is quite horrible though.

Dildo_Potter · Aug 30, 2016

Do you guys know that we can get past the 3 yellow gems without taking them at 0:25 (in 1234's DOTK3 video) ?

@Cut: looked again at your channel, if I want to go for a lower score, gotta replay the whole level right?
edit: I played the combo for max score, but after killing the first hoodblaster, I didn't went back to take the powerup. After many fails I ended with 122.199 points :mryellow:

1234 · Aug 30, 2016

Dildo_Potter said:
Do you guys know that we can get past the 3 yellow gems without taking them at 0:25 (in 1234's DOTK3 video) ?

I actually don't know that, how can you do that? Am I too stupid and you can carefully tiptoe past the gems or is there a SJ I don't know about? Either way, the vine combo would yield 840 points then, so it'd be an improvement.
I see you decided for an easier version of the LOTLD5-combo too. :mryellow:

Now you're only 420 points away from the maximum.

Something I forgot in my last post: While I was in part 3, I thought about following combo, which we could use, if the 6000-points-green-gem-combo don't work: Take the lockjaw and quickly get to the platform with the green gem. Start the combo with this gem, then fall down and get the single yellow gem, jump down and take the two yellow gems on the vine while falling, now run towards the matuvu. On your way take the uppermost gem from the other vine by running near the ledge and the next two gems in the hallway (until now everything works), then get the matuvu (this could be hard, but I think it's possible) and finish off with the next two yellow gems. (GYYYY|YYMaYY) (4900 points). Then take the two remaining gems on the vine (60 points).

Assuming the improved matuvu combo and the vine combo with all three yellow gems will work, we could get 11700 points in part 3.
Assuming the other questionable combos in part 4 and 7 will work too, we could reach up to 109430 points after the green gems combo in part 7. With an improved second matuvu combo in part 4, we could get 960 points more, leading us to 110390 points, still 540 points too short. However there are still ideas in part 1, so maybe ...

Cut · Aug 30, 2016

DildoPotter said:
@Cut: looked again at your channel, if I want to go for a lower score, gotta replay the whole level right?
edit: I played the combo for max score, but after killing the first hoodblaster, I didn't went back to take the powerup. After many fails I ended with 122.199 points

Not really, you can just go for this:

Yes, you lose 90 points because of the lower starting score, but optimally once you're willing to revisit this level, there is going to be a new maximum score after part 3 anyway, so you're not missing out on too much.

#undefeated

1234 said:
Something I forgot in my last post: While I was in part 3, I thought about following combo, which we could use, if the 6000-points-green-gem-combo don't work: Take the lockjaw and quickly get to the platform with the green gem. Start the combo with this gem, then fall down and get the single yellow gem, jump down and take the two yellow gems on the vine while falling, now run towards the matuvu. On your way take the uppermost gem from the other vine by running near the ledge and the next two gems in the hallway (until now everything works), then get the matuvu (this could be hard, but I think it's possible) and finish off with the next two yellow gems. (GYYYY|YYMaYY) (4900 points). Then take the two remaining gems on the vine (60 points).

This is a really good idea, one of the things I tried in the past but did not put enough effort into it to succeed. This is probably 100x more doable than the 6000-combo, so I'm a fan of this. In part 1, I think we should examine some of the speedrun strats. There is a lot of techniques to clip out of bounds in the 2nd big room (with the goo) so I'd think it could be possible to do this with the lockjaw and then fly towards the area where you pick up the gems after falling down to the Knaaren. That would be a nice extra as well.

Also Maz, how exactly are we getting 121.099 points in LOTLD glitchless, when taking a green gem at 98.499 points and having it still count is clearly a glitch?

Dildo_Potter · Aug 30, 2016

1234, yes you can tiptoe the 3 yellow gem, like in LOTLD1 with the red gem next to the HMF in the hoodlum combo. Press, forward, forward, forward, etc.

Cut, in LOTLD5 in fact I lose 94029-93919=110 points + 30 points for a full hit for the 2nd hoodblaster. np it's a good level to replay. :mrgreen:

Maz, I got 87.338 points in BOM without any glitch, at least if in part 6 when I hit razoff multiple times with the HMF you call that a glitch.

edit: I still don't see which gems you're talking about for the improved matuvu combo, so I'm gonna check that.
Plus I seriously gotta play HH if I wanna improve my overall score: 34k+ available with the old max

after checking my video:

pause at 0:29, I guess you were talking about these gems. The time to get next to the green gem, the powerup may end.

edit after check: good news

that's totally possible concerning the timing with the LJ.

Maz · Aug 30, 2016

Score updated, got 103.509 in SBTC.

Cut said:
Also Maz, how exactly are we getting 121.099 points in LOTLD glitchless, when taking a green gem at 98.499 points and having it still count is clearly a glitch?

Damn, busted!

Nah, this was the one exception I was willing to make. Otherwise it wouldn't really be a challenge, since all I'd have to do is just get 99.999 in the levels where we can pass 100k.

Dildo_Potter said:
Maz, I got 87.338 points in BOM without any glitch, at least if in part 6 when I hit razoff multiple times with the HMF you call that a glitch.

I actually didn't use that. Everything hints towards the HMF being intended to knock Razoff off the wrecking ball and since that doesn't happen when using this "trick", I considered it a Glitch as well. If you used that and played Part 6 perfectly, that would probably be almost enough to reach 99.999 (at least you should be able to get very close).

Dildo_Potter said:
1234, yes you can tiptoe the 3 yellow gem, like in LOTLD1 with the red gem next to the HMF in the hoodlum combo. Press, forward, forward, forward, etc.

Well, looking at 1234's video, it does look like it's really hard to even get that one Yellow Gem while the Lockjaw's still active. If you tip-toed past the other 2 Gems with the intention of using them for the Vine-Combo, you'd have to tiptoe past them on your way back into the first area as well, which would make you lose even more precious time with the Lockjaw.
Granted, you could always just get these 2 Gems by themselves with a Lockjaw - which would still be an extra 30 Points - but I don't think you can use them for the Vine-Combo without losing more Points due to time-issues with the Powersuit.

1234 said:
Something I forgot in my last post: While I was in part 3, I thought about following combo, which we could use, if the 6000-points-green-gem-combo don't work: Take the lockjaw and quickly get to the platform with the green gem. Start the combo with this gem, then fall down and get the single yellow gem, jump down and take the two yellow gems on the vine while falling, now run towards the matuvu. On your way take the uppermost gem from the other vine by running near the ledge and the next two gems in the hallway (until now everything works), then get the matuvu (this could be hard, but I think it's possible) and finish off with the next two yellow gems. (GYYYY|YYMaYY) (4900 points). Then take the two remaining gems on the vine (60 points).

That's some Fairy-Council-like shit with the Matuvu right there

Well, it's ertainly a good idea. I remember trying something else with these Gems, and if I recall correctly, I had trouble connecting the Gem next to the Matuvu with the one next to the vines. Have you succeeded in doing that? And if so, isn't it hard (like, REALLY hard or impossible) to get the Matuvu this way?

Dildo_Potter · Aug 30, 2016

HH warehouse is absolute whoreshit, each time someone dies

and I can't manage the basic matuvu green gem combo at the beginning so I involved the door and left the matuvu :pfff:

good luck with DOTK.

Cut · Aug 30, 2016

Dildo_Potter said:
HH warehouse is absolute whoreshit, each time someone dies and I can't manage the basic matuvu green gem combo at the beginning so I involved the door and left the matuvu

There is a trick with the very fist combo. If you kill the Grim Keeper with the trick where you just shoot him straight from above, try to "jump onto" his shield while killing him. Rayman will actually stay on his shield for a few frames and that allows you to convert both lums, but because the shield disappears after the Grim Keeper dies, the conversion-animation is cancelled, giving you a lot of extra time. This sounds complicated, but it's actually not once you know what to do. This:

shows how this looks like when executed perfectly, and it is what allows me to get both the door and the matuvu with the HMF in time.

Also, I assume you are weakening some Hoodlums in the warehouse? I'd suggest just not do that (except for the Elite Monger). You'll have the HMF for the first hoodlum, and in the 2nd half of the combo, there should be enough time to kill both Hoodblasters with a fully charged fist, even though it requires you to move precisely on the boxes. I used to have problems with this, but now that I spent like 50 hours in the warehouse, I know exactly what to do so that nobody gets hit at all. It's probably more an experience thing rather than anything else, because rarely is the camera as weird as in this room, as well as the boxes behaving very weird.

Maz said:
Nah, this was the one exception I was willing to make. Otherwise it wouldn't really be a challenge, since all I'd have to do is just get 99.999 in the levels where we can pass 100k.

That sounds fair, it's one of the parleys with glitchless scoring, at what point did we remove so many glitches and techniques that scoring itself becomes pointless because playing literally everything as it's intended is usually very boring.

Maz said:
Well, it's ertainly a good idea. I remember trying something else with these Gems, and if I recall correctly, I had trouble connecting the Gem next to the Matuvu with the one next to the vines. Have you succeeded in doing that? And if so, isn't it hard (like, REALLY hard or impossible) to get the Matuvu this way?

Again, this sounds like a very good spot for the camera mode glitch, where you would just take the yellow gem and as soon as you touch it, you activate camera mode for instant zoom mode after exiting it. That should probably work and make getting the yellow gem in combo in the first place the harder part of this.

Harpic fraîcheur · Aug 30, 2016

Dildo_Potter said:
HH warehouse is absolute whoreshit, each time someone dies and I can't manage the basic matuvu green gem combo at the beginning so I involved the door and left the matuvu good luck with DOTK.

Shame on you. :boon:

Dildo_Potter · Aug 30, 2016

Thanks a lot Cut. Yeah I already watched almost all your videos, and that one too, so I'm a fan of you

I agree that I completely lack experience in HH warehouse, because when I was a kid I cheated my way through it. Looking closely, it's exactly what you say: you gain a ton of time with your trick GG. I thought you were playing whole part 1 with IPG, but how can you pass the hoodlums at the beginning (with the green gem combo)?

@Harpic fraîcheur:

1234 · Aug 31, 2016

Cut said:
In part 1, I think we should examine some of the speedrun strats. There is a lot of techniques to clip out of bounds in the 2nd big room (with the goo) so I'd think it could be possible to do this with the lockjaw and then fly towards the area where you pick up the gems after falling down to the Knaaren. That would be a nice extra as well.

That'd be quite great. Unfortunately when we enter the area with the knaaren in a different way than foreseen, then the pit, where we have to fall down, won't teleport us to the next area, plus the camera will remain focused on the pit. I made a video in case you don't know what I mean. Theoretically we could still helicopter down to the next area and play the remaining combos, but we would have to do it blindly.

Anyway, if we could work around this problems, we would win 270 points, so we should investigate this.

Dildo_Potter said:
1234, yes you can tiptoe the 3 yellow gem, like in LOTLD1 with the red gem next to the HMF in the hoodlum combo. Press, forward, forward, forward, etc.

I tried to pass the gems from the left side and from the right side, but to no avail, even though I made the tiniest steps I could do. If it's no trouble, could you make a video of that, because I'm really clueless, maybe I use a wrong technique?
Maz' concern about the time issue with the powerup is also justified, but luckily there is a spot near the blue can, where you can perform a SJ. That should allow you to quickly pass the yellow gems again. I didn't make any tests yet though.

Maz said:
I remember trying something else with these Gems, and if I recall correctly, I had trouble connecting the Gem next to the Matuvu with the one next to the vines. Have you succeeded in doing that? And if so, isn't it hard (like, REALLY hard or impossible) to get the Matuvu this way?

It's hard indeed, but after you got the uppermost gem from the vine, you can use the two seconds to bring yourself carefully beside the next yellow gem, so that you can then take the gem from the side. That way you can reach the next gem in time. As for the matuvu, it's definitely hard to get him in time, but luckily you can enter the look mode very quickly in this place (even if you couldn't, there is still the instant look mode trick involving the snapshot). So I succeeded in both connection (gem - gem; gem - matuvu), but they're quite hard. (I hope the description was understandable).

There's also something I wanted to ask already some time ago: In DOTK 3 in the last room with the huge knaaren tower, there is a wall with a hole in it. One could say that it's quite well hidden as you usually don't go nowhere near it. However you can helicopter down to this hole and even stand there. I'm not sure if you know what I mean, but if you do, then do you also know for what purpose the game developers made this hole; I can't see any reason for it. Also when you've reached the top of the tower and look upwards, then you can see that the ceiling has also a hole. I can't see any reason for it either. The ceiling is not that special, but the wall actually is. The question isn't really important, I'm just curious.

Cut · Aug 31, 2016

1234 said:
There's also something I wanted to ask already some time ago: In DOTK 3 in the last room with the huge knaaren tower, there is a wall with a hole in it. One could say that it's quite well hidden as you usually don't go nowhere near it. However you can helicopter down to this hole and even stand there. I'm not sure if you know what I mean, but if you do, then do you also know for what purpose the game developers made this hole; I can't see any reason for it. Also when you've reached the top of the tower and look upwards, then you can see that the ceiling has also a hole. I can't see any reason for it either. The ceiling is not that special, but the wall actually is. The question isn't really important, I'm just curious.

I know exactly what you mean, and I examined huge areas of this level 2 years ago with the infinite throttle-copter cheat. Both these holes appear no have no purpose at all it seems like. One half of the pit has a slightly elevated walkway more close to the spiral tower, and I think you can reach the hole from this elevated path. Maybe it's supposed to be a way to the other side of the pit? Even though there is no reason to do so? This entire level looks like it was supposed to contain a lot more room than is featured in the finished version of this, so maybe they tried to make this part a little more open-world-style, but then they couldn't come up with ideas of what the purpose of all those areas could be. Same applies to the hole in the ceiling on top of the knaaren tower, there is a rolling superjump that allows you to reach the top of the ceiling and there is absolutely nothing in there. Interestingly, rayman can actually grab the ledges of the hole, which is usually an indicator that this was created intentionally.

There is another weird thing with the Knaaren at the very beginning. If you manage to go behind them, you can actually explore the little backroom where they are waiting when Rayman is not around, and if you go far enough, you will just be teleported back to the starting room. Or think about the pointless Knaaren in the room with the Green Gem, who appears to protect something, but when you explore his path, there is absoultely nothing there.

Since this level has the weird issue with the Level Score (it's basically the only part in the game where you can collect everything and not get 100%. Unexperienced players will usually yield only 90-ish %), I assume that this part just contained more little secrets with some yellow gems in some previous versions, but then they got rid of it because maybe most of those parts were absurdly broken due to bad level design. This wouldn't be the first part where this happens, think of the first area of TOTL2 where the entire room is boarded up with invisible walls, which do not have the same collision box as the actual walls. Probably another level where they just messed up everything but due to how that room was designed, they couldn't just cut out parts of it because it's one very large room. I also took some time to explore the level for a possible 3rd matuvu (that would also explain the level score issue and this is the only part in the entire game where the majority of the areas stay unexplored when you play it for score) but I couldn't find anything anywhere. My best guess was the pit in the room with the 1st matuvu (where they actually created a separate room, the abyss is only supposed to teleport you there) but nope, nothing anywhere.

DildoPotter said:
I thought you were playing whole part 1 with IPG, but how can you pass the hoodlums at the beginning (with the green gem combo)?

If you superjump on top of the bridge, you can just fly over the gate that blocks the path to the next area. The gate is passable from behind, so you can just go back when you need to.

Dildo_Potter · Aug 31, 2016

1234: I've tried and it's like you say: no way. I feel dumb and sorry to have made false hopes, but I really thought I had gotten past those gems in the past. Looks like I was mistaken.

Cut: Ok then, I'll get tons of extra points :hinhinhin:

Cut · Aug 31, 2016

Be aware though that you have to pay attention to Globox' Progression in this part, otherwise you might crash the game. That means, you have to activate the two buttons in the first room, to be able to use the trapdoor to the Warehouse. Also, you cannot trigger the cutscene in the very last area with Globox, if Globox is still in the first room, because then, if you use the two buttons, the game will crash as soon as Globox tries to enter the room with the Spinneroo. You can enter the warehouse from the top though, using the Rolling Superjump from my IPG-video. This might look wacky because the camera does funky stuff in this case, but at least it hasn't crashed or softlocked the game for me yet.

PluMGMK · Aug 31, 2016

Cut said:
There is another weird thing with the Knaaren at the very beginning. If you manage to go behind them, you can actually explore the little backroom where they are waiting when Rayman is not around, and if you go far enough, you will just be teleported back to the starting room.

Ah, so that's what Acarr meant here. (Kudos to her for discovering that on her first playthrough though!) What a way to put overly ambitious players back in their box!
(You might not have seen my post in the R3 topic yesterday, but my new hypothesis is that they were just trying to mess with our heads. Then again, the hangable ledges on that ceiling hole would seem to suggest otherwise.)

Maz · Aug 31, 2016

Small update: I revisited FC because I had something in mind for Part 2, and after playing pretty much all day and all night, I managed to succeed in an improved Matuvu-Combo.

To pull it off, you have to start at the very top. You have to take the 2 Yellow Gems inside the tree trunk leading to the next area, then take the 3 Gems on the mushrooms. After falling down, you have to take the third Gem (just in front of the trunk) by pivoting in front of it. Then roll onto the trampoline in the back to get the Yellow Gem just in time and proceed by jumping towards the 3 Yellow Gems on the small plateau. Drop down to take the 3 Gems on the mushrooms afterwards. Now, you have to take the first Gem on the bridge, then helicopter past the second one to take it by doing a double pivot. You then need to run like hell towards the branch which the Matuvu is sitting on, and roll towards the first Gem (I felt like this required [almost] frame-perfect play). Take the other Gem and drop down to the floor. Take 3 of the Yellow Gems, then take the Red Gems on the mushrooms, roll off the ledge and take the remaining Gems. After you've taken the final Gem, quickly take the Matuvu in Combo.

y y y y y | y y y y y | y y y y y | y y y y y | r r r y y y r y y ma

Improvements to the previous version include taking more Gems and getting all red Gems for maximum value.

This Combo is terrible garbage and one of the hardest Combos I've seen and played to date. I used the "old" Dwarf-Combo because I was too scared that I'd mess up 1234's version; I lost some Points because of that, but I still managed to finish Part 1 with 4.730 Points this way. I don't know how much of an improvement that is, but I thought I'd just let you guys know.

1234 · Aug 31, 2016

@Cut: That makes sense. Probably the developers really just wanted to make more out of this part, but didn't do it in the end for whatever reason; at least all this strange things suggest that there should be something more.
Maybe there are still some invisible gems as in BOM 3, which the developers forgot to remove ...

@Dildo_Potter: No problem, maybe we will still find another way to pass this gems. :wink:

@Maz: Awesome score!!! It's amazing that you could take the two gems on the bridge and then reach the next two gems near the matuvu in time. :shock:

According to my combo sheet it's even possible to include the other two gems from the trampolines in the combo. At least that is the combo what Lance could do with savestates and slowdowns. The optimal score after part 2 is 4900 points then, but again: 4730 points is really good, I was already happy about 4450 points, which is my best score for this part.

EDIT: Today I looked a little bit into part 7 and I think I've found an important improvement:

At first the ending of the hoodboom combo has to be modified: Don't convert the last two black lums, but get the lockjaw after killing the last hoodstormer and finish off with the green gem. I think you won't be able to convert the lums after taking the green gem.
The combo: b l b l b | l b l s l | s l s s g with b for hoodboom, l for lum, s for hoodstormer and g for green gem (14470 points)

Also the ending of the green gem combo has to be changed: After killing the hoodo, kill the hoodlock. To keep the combo alive while pushing him towards the fire, convert the lum of the hoodo after ~6 sec. Then convert the hoodlocks' lum, kill the now appeared hoodstormer and finally convert his lum too. This combo is worth 17140 points in total and 12780 combo points.

Yet I didn't make enough tests to confirm that it's all possible, but for me it looks quite promising.
By the way, if I'm not mistaken, if we make also the green gem combo in part 4 and the lavicraft combo in part 7 possible, we'll reach a new maximum. I'll check this later again to make sure.

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