Should the Rayman Saga be more like Rayman 2?

Rayman is an iconic character in video games due to his simple but effective design and the fantasy world in which he immerses us from the tender Rayman 1 to the fun and challenging Rayman Legends, but a doubt that has always been with me since I started following the Rayman games is the beloved and imposing Rayman 2, a game that in every aspect, both technical and narrative, was different from the tender and colorful previous installment, giving us larger levels, changing those beautiful colorful landscapes for more robust and darker places, bringing with it a depressing aura and even somewhat disturbing, something that is reflected in the story since if we analyze the adventure of Rayman 2 we realize that it is something much deeper than just saving the clearing from the space pirates' dreams. The game camouflages this with black humor and innocent jokes. But if we analyze the story well and take it to a more realistic point, we realize that the story of Rayman 2 is anything but childish. My doubt arises that when Rayman 3 showed its face at the beginning of the 2000s, there was no trace of Rayman. 2 was replaced by a somewhat more acidic humor but removing the depressing aspect of its story with more comical and unpredictable situations and that is how I continue to be in the later installments of Rayman, that somewhat more serious story was changed by that humor and lighter stories

Should Rayman keep the dark and mature philosophy of Rayman 2? Or was it good that the story was lighter and more comical?

I moved the topic to the Rayman forum, I think it fits better here

This is something we have discussed on several occasions, but I restate my position. Yes, I am totally convinced that the Rayman saga should have followed the path that was built in Rayman 2 from a narrative point of view. It's not the most developed story you'll see in a videogame (which is to be expected since it's a game for all audiences), but it laid the groundwork of a relatively deep lore that could have been exploited much more in other games.

I would prefer if it kept the more colorful wackier style like in the original and Origins and Legends.

I would like both. In fact, I think it's even possible to detect a mystical darkness in Rayman 1, and some quirky playfulness in Rayman 2. Maybe it's good that one aspect dominates, however, since a thing cannot have a solid identity if its parts are all equal. My ideal would be a dark world pierced by shards of light.

I would like a mix of the serious of Rayman 2 and the acidic humor of Rayman 3, but the atmosphere of the UbiArt games is just too goofy for me.

After playing Tunic a few months ago, I'd love to see Raymanian as a fully developed language in a potential new Rayman game, just like it was done here. Do you think that's too much work for Ubisoft?

They ditched the good old gibberish of Rayman 2 for something as dumb and irritating as pig latin, so I think that Domnibus is our only hope now.

It’s so irritating when people think that rayman 2 was the best approach for rayman, they’re obviously nostalgia blind.

Clearly we're a compensation for each other then, since I think Rayman 2 transcends Rayman as a franchise I want to get lost in worlds like Rayman 2 more than I want to see a new Rayman game.

But how did we get into this situation in the first place? I think the reason Rayman is able to adapt to such different tones so easily is that he was designed to be an all-purpose character. In my understanding, Michel Ancel wanted limitless possibilities for Rayman, a kind of vehicle for pure imagination.

Considering that, I'd take any tone or evolution of the series that's headed by someone with brilliant ideas and burning passion. Let them do what they do best, tell the story they want to tell, whether it be serious or zany. That way the creator is in harmony with the creation process and not constrained in any way. How else would we have got the great titles so far?

I certainly am not denying that rayman 2 is a brilliant game when I say this, but in this day and age, not many unserious franchises exist anymore (besides Nintendo’s massive walled garden of IPs). Many people praised rayman origins and legends for standing out from the other games of the time, except rayman fans, who insult these masterpieces even further by refusing to address the games at true sequels solely because they aren’t 3D, despite the series finding roots within the late-2D era

I like rayman 2 as a game, but not a rayman game. We can’t bloadcoat another amazing wacky franchise because it needs to “fit in” with the nostalgic 30-40 year old audience

Greengoop said:

except rayman fans, who insult these masterpieces even further by refusing to address the games at true sequels solely because they aren’t 3D, despite the series finding roots within the late-2D era

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I'm sure anyone who has played those games cannot dismiss their quality from a gameplay and "fun" standpoint. I haven't played much of Origins or Legends, but I got the impression they don't give you that immersive narrative that 2 and 3 did. So, this appears to be yet another example of Rayman's flexibility setting different expectations among different gamers.

Greengoop said:

I like rayman 2 as a game, but not a rayman game. We can’t bloadcoat another amazing wacky franchise because it needs to “fit in” with the nostalgic 30-40 year old audience

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I stand by my previous point that if the creator is actually talented, I'd rather let them fulfil their vision in whatever tone takes shape in their mind. I don't equate the seriousness of Rayman 2 with the seriousness of modern games (which are more like "takes itself too seriously"). In any case, I think it's overwhelmingly likely that a wacky tone would be adopted. Rayman's world lends itself to that more than anything, and Rayman 2 is an outlier in spite of its popularity, and very much a product of its time.

From what I can tell Rayman 2 resonates with young people as much as us veteran gamers, which would be due to the universality of its mythic style. Every culture speaks the language of myth. But I am with you, and if anything, I think they should crank up the craziness with Rayman ...without stooping to Rabbids or some other branding tactic.

Hugo said:

I'm sure anyone who has played those games cannot dismiss their quality from a gameplay and "fun" standpoint. I haven't played much of Origins or Legends, but I got the impression they don't give you that immersive narrative that 2 and 3 did.

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Rayman 3 is immersive? Maybe it’s just my terrible breaking down PC with the insanely bright sun and windows open making it hard for me to feel truly immersed, but with rayman legends and origins I can say for certain I found them much more immersive than 2/3. Maybe that’s just an experience thing though.

Hugo said:

So, this appears to be yet another example of Rayman's flexibility setting different expectations among different gamers.

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Yep, that’s it

Hugo said:

I stand by my previous point that if the creator is actually talented, I'd rather let them fulfil their vision in whatever tone they envision.

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I dont think this was why ancel chose to give rayman 2 a serious tone, to cite Mortamon Saturn, it was just made as a serious tone to differentiate from tonic trouble

Hugo said:

I don't equate the seriousness of Rayman 2 with the seriousness of modern games

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Yeah, rayman 2 was more dark in tone than in gameplay, but that’s still a lot commoner than a fun, light-hearted game

Hugo said:

In any case, I think it's overwhelmingly likely that a wacky tone would be adopted. Rayman's world lends itself to that more than anything, and Rayman 2 is an outlier in spite of its popularity, and very much a product of its time.

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Rayman 2 was nowhere near as successful as rayman 1, or rayman legends (and probably rayman 3, but I’m not sure. Definitely not rayman origins though) and the reason for that is just… it’s boring, and hardly accessible either, considering it hasn’t had a good port (or one on an actual console) for over 20 years and not many people use/have a pc.

Hugo said:

From what I can tell Rayman 2 resonates with young people as much as us veteran gamers, which would be due to the universality of its mythic style. But I am with you, if anything, I think they should crank up the craziness with Rayman without stooping to Rabbids or some other branding tactic.

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Yep, that’s my fear with rayman. I solely believe that the incrediballs didn’t get big because rayman adventures was a more laid-back game. Possibly even the most serious ubi-art rayman game

I think I need examples of what you consider "immersive" or "boring" or "serious" about these games because I constantly find myself not seeing eye to eye with you.

Maybe we can play Origins/Legends together sometime, then I'll have a fairer assessment.

Sure, i take you haven’t played O/L as much and I haven’t played 2, so we’re both kinda arguing baselessly . Maybe we could play both at the RPC pirate ship meet-up?

Also, for examples of immersiveness, I only really feel immersed by movies. “Boring” I’d give to games that don’t really offer that many new experiences (got really bored after CoBD because it was the just the same mixture of swamps and pirate ships). And “serious” I’d give to gritty shooters like call of duty

Greengoop said:

Maybe we could play both at the RPC pirate ship meet-up?

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It would be so cool

Greengoop said:

Also, for examples of immersiveness, I only really feel immersed by movies. “Boring” I’d give to games that don’t really offer that many new experiences (got really bored after CoBD because it was the just the same mixture of swamps and pirate ships). And “serious” I’d give to gritty shooters like call of duty

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Maybe you favour experiences that are uplifting and have an infectious mood about them. Rayman 2 is definitely more about the intensity of the atmosphere than its expressivity. Here's hoping we have that party someday!

Yep! I can only really stop to admire games if there’s always something to do, which is a bit ironic. That’s why the spider man games are among my favourites

I have no leg in this conversation, but you've got my interest now, what are the sales statistics for each Rayman game? This is anecdotal I know, but from a personal standpoint I'd say I've probably had more exposure and seen more of Rayman 2 in general than I have of Rayman 1. At the very least I would be inclined to believe Rayman 2 had more success, at least critically.

EDIT: Ok I saw that there is something in the Guinness Book of Records for it, but I would be curious as to how they came to that conclusion, I couldn't find any public details on the sales figures for Rayman 2 and Rayman 3 (bearing in mind also the various different releases also). The information on their website seems very light on detail as well without much in the way of citations so I'm a little sceptical on their figures. Most I could find was a Gamasutra article saying Rayman 1 sold 4 million copies, but that figure is from 2003. At any rate I can't make any conclusive comparisons on this metric.

I know rayman legends and rayman are at the top of the list for certain, and origins is certainly at the bottom, but whatever is inbetween? Now that’s a mystery

Honestly, again this is purely based on intuition, but I would have expected Rayman 3 to be the game that sold the least, given how it came out around the time games were starting to shift from the mascot platformer to the more darker themed action games. Rayman 2 was in the later mascot platformer era, whereas Origins released around a sort of 2D nostalgia era, where we started seeing games like Megaman 9 and 10, Sonic 4 or the NSMB series. Legends was also part of that era, but considering how I hear more about Legends than Origins I think it's fair to say Legends probably sold a lot more.

I can't seem to find figures on Origins' sales figures, all I can find are the initial sales, and comparisons to how Legends sold a lot more initially, but not much on lifetime sales. Not that I necessarily disagree with your conclusion, more just on the basis of trends I don't think it would be the worst selling.

Origins and legends were released in the right time, unfortunately origins was poorly marketed

Rayman 1 was released at the right time as its ability to become a PS launch title made it blow up just before the 3D era

Rayman 2 was a decent success, releasing in the middle of the 3D era, after the “OMG 3D SO COOL!!!11!!” Era. Chances are rayman would be as popular as crash if rayman 2 was released a bit earlier

Rayman 3 may not have sold well, and released at the wrong time, but it was certainly the most hyped up rayman game to ever be released