Old bosses in Rayman4?

[spiraldoor]

Hoodlums can't die. They can have their suits destroyed, they can have their black lums turned back into red lums, but they cannot die. After all, it's impossible to destroy energy, which lums are made of.

And there's no evidence the Hoodlum in Celoche is destroyed anyway. Maybe some cables or turbines or engines inside it were broken, rendering it useless, and the Hoodlum trapped inside? He could escape.

[Xenon]

I suppose Hoodlums can't "die" as you put it, but they no longer exist as Hoodlums, at least, and therefore don't hold power. Once the Hoodlum in Celoche was destroyed (or otherwise), it could no longer maintain control of Celoche. And yes, there is evidence that it was beaten; it disappeared once the final torpedo was fired, so it had been converted back into a black Lum.

Besides, since we have not seen such a species of Hoodlum, it's likely that Celoche had to be powered by THAT SPECIFIC one. Maybe it even built it.

[spiraldoor]

Maybe Celoche IS the Hoodlum? Think about it...a humanoid sack-like suit can be controlled by a black lum, a mini-helicopter thing can be controlled by a black lum, a flying washing machine can be controlled by a black lum, perhaps a giant machine could? It would be kinda unnecessary for the black lum to be inside a Hoodlum inside Celoche, when it could just be, well, inside Celoche.

[Xenon]

But we clearly saw the figure in the cockpit. It might not even have been a Hoodlum - this is just something I've assumed - you might be right, it could be part of Celoche. Suffice to say though, it's not a simple Black Lum. And saying that Celoche is controlled by one lone Black Lum is essentially saying the thing is one GIANT Hoodlum.

[stan423321]

Which is too big, I suppose?

[Xenon]

It simply can't be a Hoodlum, it's machinery that collapses. It certainly doesn't convert to a black Lum.

[stan423321]

Back to main topic - what about return of Begoniax and Razoff... but in a couple?!

[spiraldoor]

I never saw any cockpit

And if the black lum is, say, controlling a Hoodmonger, and the Hoodmonger is controlling Celoche, that's essentially the same as a black lum just controlling Celoche. In fact, it would take less energy for the black lum to control Celoche directly.

And when Rayman stomps on Hoodlums in Clearleaf Arena, they turn into some kind of stain and no black lum appears. But since energy cannot be destroyed the black lums must live on in some way.

Also, if you look closely at Celoche, you see its eyes are pirate windows from R2. And the mechanical fish thing that swims near it also has these eyes. Celoche has these eyes all around its head, in fact.

[Xenon]

I never saw any cockpit

Okay, wrong word. But the room where the Hoodlum controls him.

And if the black lum is, say, controlling a Hoodmonger, and the Hoodmonger is controlling Celoche, that's essentially the same as a black lum just controlling Celoche. In fact, it would take less energy for the black lum to control Celoche directly.

But Celoche isn't a Hoodlum, so the two can't be connected.

And when Rayman stomps on Hoodlums in Clearleaf Arena, they turn into some kind of stain and no black lum appears. But since energy cannot be destroyed the black lums must live on in some way.

I'm not sure why no black Lum appears, but we don't see it escape either. I guess it's just trapped in the mush.

[spiraldoor]

And if the black lum is, say, controlling a Hoodmonger, and the Hoodmonger is controlling Celoche, that's essentially the same as a black lum just controlling Celoche. In fact, it would take less energy for the black lum to control Celoche directly.

But Celoche isn't a Hoodlum, so the two can't be connected.

Who says that black lums can ONLY control things made of fabric?

[stan423321]

Me. And I can't see HOW would it control another thingy.

[spiraldoor]

The same way it controls things made of fabric.

[Xenon]

The Celoche is obviously a robot though. If it were a Hoodlum, it would have transformed into a black Lum, but this never happened.

[spiraldoor]

Hoodlums don't transform into black lums; their suits get destroyed, leaving the black lum outside. There is no magical "transformation" between black lum and Hoodlum, just the weaving of a suit.

Perhaps Mawpaw fur evaporates with sufficient damage, but the metal of Celoche does not?

[Xenon]

Whichever way you look at it, I can conclude that the Celoche is not a Hoodlum

[spiraldoor]

I think it perfectly plausible that Celoche is controlled by a black lum in the same way that black lums control Hoodlums.

Well, Celoche is definitely comprised of a black lum and a mechanical tripod, this we know. The black lum would have turned red at the end of the game, and the tripod would have been left underwater. But if someone scares that red lum, and someone hauls that tripod out of the water and fixes it up, Celoche is back. Not too likely, but hey, this is the Glade of Dreams we're talking about.

[Xenon]

I think it perfectly plausible that Celoche is controlled by a black lum in the same way that black lums control Hoodlums.

Bah, I've already dismissed this discussion. Since we could identify a creature (Hoodlum?) controlling Celoche, THAT is where the Black Lum lies (if it is a Hoodlum of course) and thus not Celoche. The two cannot be connected.

[CheatCat]

But if Celoche should be in Rayman 4, should it be on land or underwater? I think it would be relly cool to fight aganist Celoche on land!

[spiraldoor]

I'd like to fight him on land, and you should have to climb him, SotC-style, and get into his hatch and kill the Hood/black lum within!

[Xenon]

Now make a decent comeback. I do not take kindly to your cowardice. Stand up and fight me!

I've been waiting to use this.