Rayman 3 scores

[DTUCC]

nice work, the ipg is indeed the main source of our improvement in TOTL (there goes our 11k lead i guess..). the ipg is the basis of every combo in TOTL part 2 and without it we might have never seen an improvement in TOTL at all.

after finding the ipg you still have your work cut out for you though - it changes part 2 of TOTL completely. as far as the research goes, this glitch works on every single platform and is free to be taken advantage of. furthermore, it was a phenomenal coincidence that this glitch happens to be where we needed it the most, quite literally.

the ipg is a pretty cool tool to play around with, and i recommend everyone who gives it a try to take a shock rocket and fire it

guess i'll have to finish CF sooner than expected...

also, yay for 5.000 posts!

[RibShark]

The glitch does not work for the PC version.

[sfn42]

It's been a long time since I last posted here.

The IPG to me is a prime example of how a different perspective can provide a breath of fresh air. The scoring community has been stagnating for many years now, but the input of the speedrunners with their different goals and different way of playing the game has lead to a small revolution inside the scoring community, affecting both the point structure and the competitive structure of this game.

The border between acceptable and unacceptable bugs in indeed hard to define. It's the first time I've heard of this infinite power-up glitch, where can I see it?

That is indeed a very interesting issue. I believe that every glitch is permissible, as long as it originates within the game and does not require any outside modification, such as using cheat engine or glitches caused by an emulator (I do not know if anyone is familiar with the rolling barrels glitch on ZSNES in Donkey Kong Country 2, but that would be an example for the latter). The IPG is clearly triggered by using a special technique within the game (as the video illustrates), therefore I see no problem with it.

Unfortunately, the issue of glitches originating inside or outside the game leads us to the game's biggest problem in my opinion: version differences. Problems like the black lums glitch working only on some platforms creates a grey area because platform-dependent glitches clearly have an outside influence, I would call it an external prerequisite for triggering the glitch inside the game (in order to distinguish from aforementioned cheat engine or emulator glitches), but this distinction is probably not clear in many cases.

On a side note, version differences go far beyond the differences in programming between the PC, PS2, GC and Xbox versions. Different hardware/settings on a PC can influence in-game performance and even using different TV sets can make an impact for console players that goes beyond simple optical effects. I invite all console players to try R3 on a traditional tube TV and on an LCD TV. I can guarantee you that you will feel a difference in terms of in-game performance. How far these differences reach, is, as of yet, unclear.

That's my two cents for now. I hope you find some of the stuff I wrote interesting and I'd love to discuss it further if you're indeed interested. The great thing about R3, in my opinion, is that it provides so much depth for discussion and, as the discovery of the IPG shows, there are many aspects of this game which have barely been touched upon so far.

[Xenon]

Nice to see a post from you, sfn. Your posts are always a pleasure to read and it's great to see some activity from you again.

With regards to the dramatic improvements in TTOTL, I have to admit I was a little disappointed to learn that the points were earned not from tough labour and elbow grease, but from the influence of an undiscovered glitch that gives an infinite x2. I've always had confidence that a new maximum score was possible via the 'traditional' way of playing the game. Perhaps not realistically achievable (at least for people who do stuff in the day), but within the boundaries of possibility.

I think the subject of the perspective of glitches being fair is an interesting one. I know a lot of people will disagree with me, but I believe the game would be far more appealing from a scoring perspective if there were no glitches whatsoever. The traditional progression of the game, which I mentioned earlier, stagnated a long time ago in my opinion, and we've since (with the exception of a few developed combos) been creating more and more insane ways of achieving higher scores. A part of me really feels that with every new discovery of a glitch, the traditional method is undermined and we are becoming more and more dependent on bugs and cheats beyond the reach of skill and practice.

Modifications and outside cheats are of course unacceptable and are outlawed by the entire scoring community, but a significant part of me feels slightly depressed at the news of this discovered glitch, despite it being pre-existent in the game.

[Haruka]

So does this means that some of the scores in the HOF might be a result from an infinite Combat Fatigue glitch? I didn't even know it was possible to obtain.

I know a lot of people will disagree with me, but I believe the game would be far more appealing from a scoring perspective if there were no glitches whatsoever. The traditional progression of the game, which I mentioned earlier, stagnated a long time ago in my opinion, and we've since (with the exception of a few developed combos) been creating more and more insane ways of achieving higher scores. A part of me really feels that with every new discovery of a glitch, the traditional method is undermined and we are becoming more and more dependent on bugs and cheats beyond the reach of skill and practice.

I have to agree with this. I know it might not sound quite fair from someone who is not a 700k or a 800k scorer but if no glitches were being used for the scoring competition in Rayman 3 by the community players, at this point more than thirty people around here would have around 500k and with a ridiculous difference of just one of two digits with the champion. It wouldn't just be wierd but I also believe it would make people losing interest with the game very quickly. On the other hand, the scorings done with the aid of in-game glitches add new possibilities to improve scores drastically in spite of many of them being very difficult to trigger correctly and voluntairly (I speak by myself, I only managed to trigger two or three glitches from MandM's guide) and it is really necessary a super dexterity that I'm really more than convinced that I do not have. It would be nice if one day, thanks to the mastery of more glitches could bring me to the 600k scoring but I start to mentalize it is nearly impossible.

[Sajiki]

what an avalanche have i created.. :O

well as im a speedrunner myself (a shitty one though) i have to say glitches are "part of the game" even though they are unintended. and, as i said earlier, we already use them for more than 5 years now, as launching glitch also gives a what you call "unfair" advantage. the ipg is only accessible in a few areas and it does not instantly give you 100k pts or something, it rather opens up new possibilities as you can fly to the end of the part without taking any points on the way which still requires routing and playing the level correctly. we use certain jumps (not glitches though) like in totl part 1 or in clf to skip areas of the game which seems to be okay for you although it is as unintended as the ipg is.
Additionally theres another glitch (but i dont know whether its HD or GC only) which allows you to infinitely hover from certain edges up walls or textures. speedrunners use it for example in hh part 1 from the edge where the HMF spawns to get up to the bridge in the air or in various other places to hover out of bounds and such. i could imagine this being incredibly handy for scoring too.
btw im improving my hhq score right now and i got every combo up until part 3 right now. looking forward to 700k very soon™ =)

ah and some advertising: you should all watch agdq (awesome games done quick) which is a 24/7 speedrunning marathon for charity. as theres no rayman 3 in it, the best runners did a rayman 3 any% race today.. but perhaps you will find one or two games you enjoyed as a child which are being run there
http://gamesdonequick.com/

[MandM81]

nice work, the ipg is indeed the main source of our improvement in TOTL (there goes our 11k lead i guess..). the ipg is the basis of every combo in TOTL part 2 and without it we might have never seen an improvement in TOTL at all.

I must admit I feel a bit let down that the improvements come from the use of a “glitch” of this magnitude. You let on in previous posts that the improvements came from rearranging and improving every combo in the level, thus it was through creativity, inventiveness and hard work the sudden boost in your score came.

The glitch does not work for the PC version.

And yet Cut and Mountain Goat seem to have the same boost in their scores as DTUCC? How did that come about without the IPG? I look forward to the explanation.

Great many thanks to Sajiki and other players who brought this glitch to our attention. I wonder why certain players tried to hide the use of it?

[MandM81]

Up until now every glitch in R3 has been local, which means it works for a certain combo and not for the combos that may come after. The glitches used have mainly been launching glitches, which were triggered by walking into, running into, rolling into or jumping on edges.

Now we have the first case of a global glitch, which means when triggered it works for several combos, and even for a whole part as is the case in TOTL part 2 (with the exception of the Lavomatrix Combo).

Global glitches change the nature and, dare I say, the spirit of the game and we must therefore deal with them.

The IPG being pre-existent in the game doesn’t automatically make it acceptable in terms of HoF. As far as I understand, the “cheat” described by Mountain Goat is pre-existent in the game. I don’t think Mountain Goat modified his pc or used an outside cheat to trigger that.

Should we allow the use of Mountain Goat’s “cheat” in HoF? Maybe the word “cheat” is wrong, it would perhaps be better to use the word “glitch”?

The thing is, Mountain Goat’s “glitch” is every bit as exciting as the IPG as it involves a new way to play the game. With this glitch the maximum score in each level is roughly

99.999 + the biggest combo in the level

If we allow the IPG and other related global glitches in HoF on the basis of pre-existence alone, we must allow Mountain Goat’s “glitch” as well.

It is my opinion we should not allow global glitches or Mountain Goat’s glitch to be used in HoF.

I suggest we instead designate a topic in which we can list scores and post screenshots where IPG and other global glitches are allowed.

HoF should be reserved for players not using global glitches like IPG or Mountain Goat’s glitch. Players using HoF should be able to document they have not used any of these glitches or cheats to obtain their scores.

[Adsolution]

Nice to see a post from you, sfn. Your posts are always a pleasure to read and it's great to see some activity from you again.

With regards to the dramatic improvements in TTOTL, I have to admit I was a little disappointed to learn that the points were earned not from tough labour and elbow grease, but from the influence of an undiscovered glitch that gives an infinite x2. I've always had confidence that a new maximum score was possible via the 'traditional' way of playing the game. Perhaps not realistically achievable (at least for people who do stuff in the day), but within the boundaries of possibility.

I think the subject of the perspective of glitches being fair is an interesting one. I know a lot of people will disagree with me, but I believe the game would be far more appealing from a scoring perspective if there were no glitches whatsoever. The traditional progression of the game, which I mentioned earlier, stagnated a long time ago in my opinion, and we've since (with the exception of a few developed combos) been creating more and more insane ways of achieving higher scores. A part of me really feels that with every new discovery of a glitch, the traditional method is undermined and we are becoming more and more dependent on bugs and cheats beyond the reach of skill and practice.

Modifications and outside cheats are of course unacceptable and are outlawed by the entire scoring community, but a significant part of me feels slightly depressed at the news of this discovered glitch, despite it being pre-existent in the game.

Agreed. To put it simply, this is a contest where the basic notion is to earn points by playing by acting within the rules of what the game allows, like any game. Logically, glitches should not exist, as they break the rules of the game, so logically, accepting glitch-aided scores into the Hall of Fame shouldn't even be something to consider, unless the glitches were to be welcomed in as new rules. If that were to be the case though, I think we should have a list of what glitches are and aren't acceptable, depending on how consistently they can be performed, their arbitrariness/difficulty, and how much they can actually aid you and in what way. For instance, that Land of the Livid Dead cheat I think is an absolute no-go, as it requires no extra skill or wit whatsoever, and it basically just shifts the scoring ratio higher, making no difference in the competition aspect.

[sfn42]

Nice to see a post from you, sfn. Your posts are always a pleasure to read and it's great to see some activity from you again.

With regards to the dramatic improvements in TTOTL, I have to admit I was a little disappointed to learn that the points were earned not from tough labour and elbow grease, but from the influence of an undiscovered glitch that gives an infinite x2. I've always had confidence that a new maximum score was possible via the 'traditional' way of playing the game. Perhaps not realistically achievable (at least for people who do stuff in the day), but within the boundaries of possibility.

I want to say here that it's more than just a glitch. The glitch is nothing but a stepping stone that allows new combos that have been impossible to play so far. But to actually play these combos requires a lot of hard work and a lot of patience. The IPG has transformed TOTL from one of the easiest to one of the hardest levels in the game.

I certainly agree that the game is more enjoyable when playing traditional combos. My struggles with the Razoff glitch and others document this. The problem for me, though, are not glitches per se, but gimmicks (although some glitches fall under that category). Gimmicky parts deviate from the standard way of playing. Some examples would be Razoff, the Hoodstomping in CF, the shoe in TLS and the snowboard. These parts are a fun change-of-pace in a non-scoring run but they are highly problematic in terms of scoring because they require very specialized techniques that have to be learned specifically for this part and can not be re-used in other areas of the game. Also, the examples I listed are more highly dependent on luck than any other part of the game, which can make them very, very frustrating. The IPG, strangely enough, is less gimmicky than any of those things because you're actually playing normal combos after you activate the glitch.

@Haruka: You're overestimating the effect of glitches on this game. Even if we have a wide definition of what constitutes a glitch (including, for example, the trick on the second Razoff stage, which is highly debatable), I believe that you can get at least the following scores without using any glitches (these are just quick calculations, so if someone has good reasons to doubt one of these numbers, feel free to bring them up):
FC: 47-48k
CF: 105k
BOM: 83k
LOTLD: 119k
DOTK: 108k-109k
TLS: 43k
SBTC: 104-105k
HH: 109k
TOTL: 104k

As you can see, that's way beyond 800k. I believe that the glitches may have felt bigger than they really are to many of you, because we have spent in an inproportionate amount of time discussing them. This is not surprising, considering that glitches become really important in the very high regions and the most active members in this thread over the years (such as MandM, Xenon, Mountain Goat, Dildo_Potter at times and myself) have been playing in these regions for a long time.

@RibShark: The IPG works on PC but it requires a slightly different technique. Mountain Goat and Cut know more about this than I do, so you'll have to wait for them to find out more.

@Adsolution: No offense, but I think your arguments are not well-thought-out at all. The very notion of "acting within the rules of a game" is flawed. We, as gamers, cannot predict what rules were actually intended by the programmers, as we have no access to their intentions when designing the game. Therefore, we have to play the games through our own rules. Determining these rules is a constructivist process: we build and revise these rules as we are playing along, but, and that is important, they are not pre-determined because there is no authority to determine them (I do not know if you're familiar with literary theory but this perfectly fits into the issue of author's intention vs. reader-response-criticism). When we see rules as constructivist, then your notion cannot work. Furthermore, if we have no pre-determined rules, any list that would prohibit glitches, as you suggest, would have no foundation within the game and be highly arbitrary. In reality, it would most likely be based on selfish reasons of users who are powerful/have high standing within the community and that would prevent any type of fair competition.

@MandM: I can see what you're trying to do and I'm pretty sure everyone else who has followed this discussion over the last few months can, as well. Please stop it. It's really pathetic now. I really thought you were better than that.

I hope that I've given an answer to all of your posts. If I missed anyone's post/anyone's concerns, please just shout .

[Mountain Goat]

The glitch does not work for the PC version.

hate to disappoint you, but this doesn't quite reflect the truth granted, the impression of said glitch being impossible to perform on pc might be evoked at first sight, but we have learnt to deal with that issue. after several hours of pain and struggling to find a solution, cut eventually developed a watertight method to tackle the problem, allowing for the pc-players to experience the feeling of happiness as well.

besides, a glance at the hof already suggests the opposite of your assumption. with all due respect, the scores of cut and me would have barely been achieved without the support of the ipb.

xenon: nice to see you posting! it's also a formidable demonstration of how the relevation of spectacular incidents like these always result in the top players returning to this topic.

pertaining to the association of the ipg with a lack of "tough labour" and "elbow grease", i beg to differ. as already mentioned by cc, the way of playing this level has been fundamentally changed and literally every combo has been influenced by this discovery.

lots of combo ideas have been going down the drain, some have been nearly given up on, before we were able to realize them in the long run, not to mention that the combos itself aren't a piece of cake either.
the final combo alone deserves to be labelled a brainteaser par excellence, as arranging the elements in the most lucrative way possible has proven to be an outrageous challenge.

mind you, several weeks of work have been required to determine a final score and so far, dtucc has been the only person to reach the maximum, with the rest creeping way behind. as i've had the joy of going through this part, i can say that acquiring the max (undoubtedly, for the most part it eventually boils down to personal preferences) provides a really tough challenge.

also, if patience ain't one of your strongest virtues, refraining from playing this part would be my recommendation, considering that it takes roughly 20 minutes to complete this part, provided that you've grown familiar with its way of playing.

still, as you probably didn't had the chance of testing this yourself, it's obviously harder to judge this development, so i can barely blame you.

concerning the sentiment of the traditional style of playing being undermined: while i don't entirely share your view, i can relate to it, particularly with regards to one point sfn made: the dependancy on version differences, which i would also declare as the utmost impudence.

anyway, i hope that you can grab the motivation to give the game another chance in the light of the recent events , although they might not perfectly suit your taste

[MandM81]

@MandM: I can see what you're trying to do and I'm pretty sure everyone else who has followed this discussion over the last few months can, as well. Please stop it. It's really pathetic now. I really thought you were better than that.

Wow, I must really have touched a soft spot and I didn't even comment on your post or address you in any way.

It's relevant to discuss where the limit should be. If we allow IPG into the HoF, what's next? I think you knew IPG would raise a lot of questions, why else keep it a secret for all other players and only discuss it openly when you are found out?

[Adsolution]

@Adsolution: No offense, but I think your arguments are not well-thought-out at all. The very notion of "acting within the rules of a game" is flawed. We, as gamers, cannot predict what rules were actually intended by the programmers, as we have no access to their intentions when designing the game. Therefore, we have to play the games through our own rules. Determining these rules is a constructivist process: we build and revise these rules as we are playing along, but, and that is important, they are not pre-determined because there is no authority to determine them (I do not know if you're familiar with literary theory but this perfectly fits into the issue of author's intention vs. reader-response-criticism).

I've never personally encountered a glitch in Rayman 3 before, and furthermore, we're clearly able to recognise what is a glitch and what isn't. The author's intention vs. reader-response criticism analogy doesn't entirely apply therefore, as it's extraordinarily clear how the mechanics were designed to function, as they function that way, for most people, one-hundred percent of the time.

When we see rules as constructivist, then your notion cannot work.

Which is exactly why I proposed the idea to have a list to provide fair and enjoyable competition, not an arbitrary way of using whatever means and exploitations necessary to obtain the highest possible score. Sure, it promotes boundless creativity, but an equal, if not higher amount of creativity is employed when you have a canvas to work within, and you're not just ramming yourself up against random walls hoping to fall through the floor and for some reason land on an unused beta rainbow gem worth 9001^1337 points that you'd just made up as a joke five minutes prior.

Furthermore, if we have no pre-determined rules, any list that would prohibit glitches, as you suggest, would have no foundation within the game and be highly arbitrary.

Like said before, it's extremely obvious what these rules are: the rules translate out to what the game mechanics allow you to do; distinction between glitches and intended function is not arbitrary, rather, extremely obvious due to how rare glitches of this stature are to come across in games, and Rayman 3. Sure, some may be replicatable, but the only way you would have any gain on being able to replicate it is if you stumbled across it in the first place, which is, again, something only the extreme minority of players would have, and by complete chance.

[sfn42]

@Adsolution: I do not understand why you see my post as an attack on you. Did I ever accuse you of trying to further your standings in the HoF? I just provided a general reason why your idea cannot work. If my post came across as an insult, I apologize. That was never my intention. However, I find your response (telling me to "fuck-off") highly inappropriate for a staff member.

In terms of the points you brought up:

You seem to be viewing this game from a purely technical perspective (as your point about game mechanics suggests). However, I think this perspective limits your view and does not adequately reflect reality. It's not as simple as distinguishing between glitches and non-glitches (I alluded to some grey areas in other parts of my previous post), because, as I mentioned before, we have no clear understanding of the programming of this game. The comparison in my previous post captures this issue. Furthermore, your use of terminology is unclear. In your previous post, you were speaking about rules, now about mechanics. There is a marked difference, as the former is dependent on a more philosophical view and the latter on a more technical view but to mix those two or even establish a correlation is a fallacy.

What I don't get at all, is the following sentence:

I've never personally encountered a glitch in Rayman 3 before, and furthermore, we're clearly able to recognise what is a glitch and what isn't.

Are you trying to establish a causality between the two parts of your sentence? I already addressed the second part (grey areas in terms of glitches), but the first part seriously makes me question your expertise. What makes you say that, when you've never encountered a glitch in this game, "we" (who is 'we'?) can distinguish between glitches and non-glitches?

I don't think you were ever part of the discussion of what the developers actually intended/what they programmed into this game on purpose. This discussion is as old as the game itself and I am, at this point, not a fan of its premise. However, if you look through this thread, you'll find several instances of it which should show you that things are not as clear-cut as you make them out to be.

Your steroid-comparison is not fitting at all. It completely ignores the endogeneous vs. exogeneous distinction I brought up in my penultimate post as a benchmark. I hope you are not comparing the IPG to steroids because that would be beyond ridiculous but it comes across that way.

Something to consider: glitches are enabled/created by programming. If the game wouldn't be programmed the way it is, there wouldn't be any glitches, therefore, they are as much part of the game as anything else.

[MandM81]

Something to consider: glitches are enabled/created by programming. If the game wouldn't be programmed the way it is, there wouldn't be any glitches, therefore, they are as much part of the game as anything else.

Well, I almost dare not comment on this, as it probably will result in another aggressive personal attack, but here goes:

I'd like to return to my original post on this matter: Since the Mountain Goat glitch is obviously a part of the game as the game was programmed that way, I guess you advocate for scores reached through this glitch to be allowed into HoF?

If, however, you do not think this glitch should count in HoF Id' like to know your reason for this.

[Adsolution]

@Adsolution: I do not understand why you see my post as an attack on you. Did I ever accuse you of trying to further your standings in the HoF?

Well, your wording, which highlighted high standing and power within the community, directly implying the staff and highly-respected long-timers, mentioned alongside my own reasoning, made it sound like an obvious personal attack. If that wasn't your intention, I apologise, and for my language as well, though I'm having trouble finding a different way of interpreting that as it was, as it came across as very literal in tandem with the situation.

but to mix those two or even establish a correlation is a fallacy.

But how so? it's quite technical as it is, and in the way I'm describing it, the mechanics are your rules: they tell you how you can and cannot move, how the scoring system functions, and basically define everything to do within the boundaries of the game. If a game is developed and released with a scoring mode, this scoring mode was obviously developed with their programmed mechanics in mind, and they naturally want you to use the mechanics they created to the best of their ability to obtain the highest score possible.

What I don't get at all, is the following sentence:

I've never personally encountered a glitch in Rayman 3 before, and furthermore, we're clearly able to recognise what is a glitch and what isn't.

Are you trying to establish a causality between the two parts of your sentence? I already addressed the second part (grey areas in terms of glitches), but the first part seriously makes me question your expertise.

I never claimed myself to be an expert, but I've played the game through many times, enough to say that I know it very well, just not as well as those getting 800,000+ points; this doesn't invalidate my arguments though, as they reside on a conceptual level that anyone with basic knowledge of the game could make. Also, just because I've never personally encountered any prominent glitches (which I was referring to, things that would actually affect the gameplay) doesn't mean that I'm not aware of existing ones; there are plenty of videos on YouTube showcasing most of the known glitches and exploitations in the game which I'm all very familiar with, and suffice to say, they're not the kind of things you'd have found out unless someone told you, or by complete fluke, or if you actively search for glitches.

What makes you say that, when you've never encountered a glitch in this game, "we" (who is 'we'?) can distinguish between glitches and non-glitches?

"We", meaning everyone. There's always a grey area in this sort of thing, but in this sort of thing, it's so small it's hardly even worth mentioning, as generally, the mechanics are made to be grasped almost instantly (so you would notice if a prominent inconsistency showed up at any time), and generally, things like this which actually get you more points are very obviously glitches (or have the unlikely possibility of being an 'intentional' glitch for some reason).

I don't think you were ever part of the discussion of what the developers actually intended/what they programmed into this game on purpose. This discussion is as old as the game itself and I am, at this point, not a fan of its premise. However, if you look through this thread, you'll find several instances of it which should show you that things are not as clear-cut as you make them out to be.

If there was some kind of a conspiracy, then maybe I am wrong, but whatever it was, it's clearly irrelevant and has no bearing on anyone's perception or experience and answers nothing. I think our goal here is to create a fair contest which allows as many people to enjoy competing as possible, ranging from those who like abusing the hell out of the game through off-the-wall glitches and exploitations, to those who want to be able to obtain a high score by utilising and practicing the game's integral mechanics to their best ability <- this is where I reside, however, since you can't please everybody, you have to reach a compromise, the logical one being the allowance of certain glitches, provided that they can be consistently executed and require skill, like an 'intended' mechanic, but aren't so useful to the point of alienating those who don't wish to use glitches. That's my idea of a compromise, and what I think is worthy of discussion. What I don't think is a good idea is to stick to one extreme (namely, the allowance of something like the permanent LOTLD 2x scoring), because then you're only appealing to a niche, and once again, alienating those who either don't know about (and wouldn't unless they read through this entire thread) or don't wish to utilise these glitches that do nothing but offset the scoring charts.

Like you've said, you're still able to attain well over 800,000 points with pure skill, but I think that certain exploits are downright unacceptable

Your steroid-comparison is not fitting at all.

Which is why I totally re-worded the paragraph, though you had already starting responding before I submitted the edit. I was hoping you wouldn't see that. ;o

Something to consider: glitches are enabled/created by programming. If the game wouldn't be programmed the way it is, there wouldn't be any glitches, therefore, they are as much part of the game as anything else.

Glitches are mistakes in the game design. If the game wasn't programmed the way it was, there would probably be a different set of glitches, maybe fewer, maybe more. This conspiring feature is not a glitch, but could just as well be treated as one due to its obscurity and secrecy, and like any of these other bizarre glitches that have been found out, no one would know about it unless they read through this thread, and I pray, like Xenon, that this remains an ongoing contest of skill and mastery, not of knowledge of arbitrary exploitations.

Like you've said, you're able to get well over 800,000 without utilising a single exploitation, but I still don't see them as remotely contest-appropriate material when it this is the defining and only Rayman 3 contest in existence.

[Haruka]

@Haruka: You're overestimating the effect of glitches on this game. Even if we have a wide definition of what constitutes a glitch (including, for example, the trick on the second Razoff stage, which is highly debatable), I believe that you can get at least the following scores without using any glitches (these are just quick calculations, so if someone has good reasons to doubt one of these numbers, feel free to bring them up):
FC: 47-48k
CF: 105k
BOM: 83k
LOTLD: 119k
DOTK: 108k-109k
TLS: 43k
SBTC: 104-105k
HH: 109k
TOTL: 104k

As you can see, that's way beyond 800k. I believe that the glitches may have felt bigger than they really are to many of you, because we have spent in an inproportionate amount of time discussing them. This is not surprising, considering that glitches become really important in the very high regions and the most active members in this thread over the years (such as MandM, Xenon, Mountain Goat, Dildo_Potter at times and myself) have been playing in these regions for a long time.

I'm probably missing something (maybe my combos weren't that good), because 500k is the theorical maximum standed up by Ubisoft so does that means that they didn't even know that the score could go up much higher than that?

[Sajiki]

I dont think the people that show this particular "contra-glitching" attitude even have a remotely close idea of the magnitude of impact they have on the game. I see opinions from "glitches give you 800k points instantly" or "glitches are not the way the game is intended to play". This is both simply not true. as i said earlier (although nobody commented on that) glitches, unlike cheats, are obtainable solely with the use of game mechanics. they are as much in the game as every word and letter in a book is, to pick up sfn's comparison. Additionally they are hard to pull off and hard to use in the correct way to score. its simply wrong that ipg gives you an instant x2 on totl part 2 score. I imagine you still have to do normal routing and gameplay you would have to pull off without ipg as well.
Also, I want to highlight another glitch which is very interesting and is based on the launching glitch (or super jump) you all know from piggybanks and edges: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=a8vbbDBbrnY
It is called a glidewalk:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=OCxVte0vBhg

i hate HH part 3

I'm probably missing something (maybe my combos weren't that good), because 500k is the theorical maximum standed up by Ubisoft so does that means that they didn't even know that the score could go up much higher than that?

yes.

Up until now every glitch in R3 has been local, which means it works for a certain combo and not for the combos that may come after. The glitches used have mainly been launching glitches, which were triggered by walking into, running into, rolling into or jumping on edges.

Now we have the first case of a global glitch, which means when triggered it works for several combos, and even for a whole part as is the case in TOTL part 2 (with the exception of the Lavomatrix Combo).

i want to add this is absolutely not true and as vague of a definition as whoever's "programmers didnt intend to play it like that" is. Super jumps can be HUGE. They can be so huge you can easily hover out of bounds with them and skip a whole part just like you would with infinite yellow powerup glitch. so what is "global" for you?

[Xenon]

The age-old argument of bug vs. intended function is not a good line of attack, in my opinion. The Razoff glitch was not deliberately implemented so that elite players could have a 10k advantage. Neither was the launching glitch, nor the snowboard glitch, or any other glitch, and we all know this. The developers wanted us to play within the boundaries of the combo system they created, and nothing more. But despite this, since 2003 we have not been playing in the fashion they envisaged - we have been taking advantage of the things they let slip. To coin an obvious example, look at how we can exceed 100,000 in seven of the nine levels.

That wasn't the point of my previous post. I was airing my increasing concern that these glitches are becoming ever more prevalent in this game, and they are becoming more extreme and dramatic. What exactly is going to happen in this thread if somebody discovers a glitch in part 1 TLOTLD, that allows Rayman to continue the next seven parts equipped with a Lockjaw? It's not a black and white issue of whether the glitch is pre-existent in the game. It's a grey area, and it's right that we're discussing its position in the game.

I'm also becoming increasingly concerned with the level of aggression in this thread. It's supposed to be a platform for sharing and learning but has recently become a battleground. It is no doubt fueled by competition, but I think sometimes it's important to remember that it is just a game, and that an environment of sharing and learning is far more desirable than one of hostility and aggression. I hope the staff members regularly monitor this thread as well as the others because we don't seem to be talking about plum juice and witches' cauldrons anymore...

[SuperPaavo]

I know its hard to understand, but im the best Rayman 3 player. I have Rayman 3 score record!