Rayman 3 scores

[MandM81]

This IPG glitch has broken the game, therefore any score on the HOF can be considered irrelevant. It's merely a joke now.

Great to hear from you again Jona. It's been a long time. And I completely agree with you.

[sfn42]

Nice trolling, Jona. Good job. I love how you contribute to this discussion in such a constructive and well-informed manner.

[rolesfamily]

He used to be a Mod you know!

[Sajiki]

This IPG glitch has broken the game, therefore any score on the HOF can be considered irrelevant. It's merely a joke now.

http://resnarkable.com/wp-content/uploa ... 24x924.jpg
werent you a top player once?

[MandM81]

Most of your assumptions are correct. when the combo begins, however, i do not have 99.999 points. neither do we have 99.999 points in CF and LOTLD when the combo begins, do we?

Well, you didn’t really answer the question. I’m aware you can start the combo at 99.999 + 1.500 points and reach a combo of 16.910 - 1.500 = 15.410 points. But 15.410 is not divisible by 20 either, so you manage to get rid of the Powersuit from IPG in the middle of the combo? How exactly do you do that?

While there is no need to adress this until a glitch of this magnitude has been found, i do understand the concern. This, again, gets into the argument, which glitches are merely tools for scoring more points, and which glitches don't work in favour of the spirit of this game.

But a glitch of a certain magnitude, namely the IPG, has been found and that’s what all this is about. We will have to find out how to deal with it. We know your view on this. It is new to us while you have known for a long time. I wonder why you didn’t share it with us though since you use our HoF.

These criteria are the essential ones, think about it - those are the rules by which we worked for 10 years, even though nobody ever expressed them. these are the rules by which we judged cheat engines and MG's discovery (since you keep bringing them up) - those require neither skill, nor routing. for cheat engine, my point should be clear. MG's discovery neither requires skill, nor routing. i could go through the first part of each individual level, collecting every gem one by one without even making combos, and still easily get myself to 99.999 in each level by replaying the same level over and over again.take powersuits into account here, too, since it doesn't really take a genius to get at least a few points past 100k in each level. before the argument comes up, using a random combo to get over 100k simply isn't routing, at least not in a way that requires effort.

I keep bringing up the MG glitch for one reason: It satisfies your requirements for being accepted into the HoF. It is pre-existent in the game and from reading all your arguments, it should be allowed. Therefore I’m very interested in why you ignore this glitch and not the IPG. I don’t buy the skill argument, it’s arbitrary. I will claim getting the biggest combo in each level is pretty hard and it requires skills.

- If we are to allow the IPG and still moderate the HoF we will have to ask everyone who enters a new maximum score to post video documentation. How else can we detect whether the score was reached through the IPG, the MG discovery, R3 HD or something else entirely?

to put it bluntly, since MG's discovery and the fact that R3 HD has access to the HoF codes we will NEVER be able to 100% tell if a score has been reached under generally accepted terms. keeping an ipg secret now that the method has been revealed isn't such a big deal imo, though - ipg will just be another thing to consider whenever someone reaches a new top score.

- What is the extent of IPG and how does it affect the overall gameplay? That is, before we make any decisions about allowing IPG in HoF we need to know in which levels and parts they occur.

The ipg is limited to single levels. furthermore, the ipg is limited to single levels that have both a cutscene you can somehow trigger and still be able to move, as well as levels that have a powersuit.

Do you have a list of the locations where this glitch can be triggered?

MG's discovery simply does not require hard work at all for reasons i stated above.

It does for most players, perhaps not top 10 players, but for 99 % of all players it will present a huge challenge.

I have no idea what kinds of rules you are thinking about, but i'd like to hear what you have in mind.

I’ll get back to you when we have more information about the consequences of the glitch.

You have to either die or turn your game off, that is correct. Furthermore, i appreciate the fact that you are testing the ipg at this point instead of just making judgements about something you haven't even explored to its fullest. look into it more, and you might realise that it's not really a different game you're playing.

Maybe I’m slow, but how again do you land on a combo of 15.410 points when you have activated the IPG?

[sfn42]

I believe CC will address the other aspects of your posts, soon, since they were answer to arguments he brought up. But I would like to bring up one aspect.

I wonder why you didn’t share it with us though since you use our HoF.

You have repeatedly referred to the HoF as "our HoF", essentially including yourself, but excluding CC, MG, Cut and me. What gives you more right to the HoF than we have? Why do you and certain others that you try to subsume under "our" have more of a claim to the HoF than we do? CC has been registered here longer than both of us. MG has more posts than you and I have only 100 less. We all have been about equally active in the R3 scoring community. Yet, you seem to believe that you have the right to grant and deny us access to the HoF. This is as much MG's HoF and CC's HoF and Cut's HoF and Xenon's HoF and Sajiki's HoF and Danone's HoF and my HoF and any other player's HoF as it is your HoF. If we anything, we should be grateful that RPC-administrators (Hunch in particular) put in a lot of work and had the necessary contacts to provide a HoF for all the Rayman 3-players out there.

[DTUCC]

Well, you didn’t really answer the question. I’m aware you can start the combo at 99.999 + 1.500 points and reach a combo of 16.910 - 1.500 = 15.410 points. But 15.410 is not divisible by 20 either, so you manage to get rid of the Powersuit from IPG in the middle of the combo? How exactly do you do that?

you can end on other elements than green gems, for example yellow or red gems, wooden doors or piggy banks, which add 10 or 30 points to your total, respectively.

But a glitch of a certain magnitude, namely the IPG, has been found and that’s what all this is about. We will have to find out how to deal with it. We know your view on this. It is new to us while you have known for a long time. I wonder why you didn’t share it with us though since you use our HoF.

thus, in my previous post, i did say i appreciate that you indeed seem to be taking a look at the glitch in your free time, which is going to give you a better understanding of the glitch in the future.

I keep bringing up the MG glitch for one reason: It satisfies your requirements for being accepted into the HoF. It is pre-existent in the game and from reading all your arguments, it should be allowed. Therefore I’m very interested in why you ignore this glitch and not the IPG. I don’t buy the skill argument, it’s arbitrary. I will claim getting the biggest combo in each level is pretty hard and it requires skills.

being able to get 99.999 in each level without any effort, thus resulting in a total score of at least 899.991 is not what i consider skill at all. using the biggest combo in each level to get past 100k does require skill indeed, whereas the previous 99.999 do not require any skill at all. this is pretty different from the ipg, since every point you make still results from playing a combo perfectly.

- If we are to allow the IPG and still moderate the HoF we will have to ask everyone who enters a new maximum score to post video documentation. How else can we detect whether the score was reached through the IPG, the MG discovery, R3 HD or something else entirely?

to put it bluntly, since MG's discovery and the fact that R3 HD has access to the HoF codes we will NEVER be able to 100% tell if a score has been reached under generally accepted terms. keeping an ipg secret now that the method has been revealed isn't such a big deal imo, though - ipg will just be another thing to consider whenever someone reaches a new top score.

- What is the extent of IPG and how does it affect the overall gameplay? That is, before we make any decisions about allowing IPG in HoF we need to know in which levels and parts they occur.

The ipg is limited to single levels. furthermore, the ipg is limited to single levels that have both a cutscene you can somehow trigger and still be able to move, as well as levels that have a powersuit.

that is an impact the ipg has on playing the game - looking for levels that have cutscenes and consider if there might be an ipg involved in reaching a new top score.

Do you have a list of the locations where this glitch can be triggered?

of course I don't, but we don't have a full list of the locations where lums glitches can be triggered either X_X same goes for launching glitches. it's pretty obvious we have not found all of them to this date. the most recent example is your launching glitch in the doctor's office in DOTK. the launching glitch was just one of many factors you can't ignore when trying to set a new max.

It does for most players, perhaps not top 10 players, but for 99 % of all players it will present a huge challenge.

again, MG's discovery requires you to play *one* combo per level perfectly. the ipg still requires you to play every combo perfectly in TOTL.

I’ll get back to you when we have more information about the consequences of the glitch.

I'll be looking forward to it. If you have any further questions, feel free to ask.

[Matyuv]

This IPG glitch has broken the game, therefore any score on the HOF can be considered irrelevant. It's merely a joke now.

The King has spoken. IPG is officially gay.

[Xenon]

I'm not going to continue posting in this thread until people address the issue of glitch-moderation, what they want the game to be, etc, instead of aggressively defending the use of IPG.

I personally do agree with you that IF there will be a glitch discovered which will somehow make a whole level obsolete or gives you a ridiculous amount of score without any effort (i could imagine something like the snowboarding glitch) which would act like a cheat, we should consider banning it.

Excellent, so you've conceded that RPC should have a voice when it comes to future glitches. I'm glad that we agree that game-changing glitches are not bound by arbitrary rules like pre-existence and programming definitions.

I just dont understand how, after the discovery of such a minor thing which barely gives a few 10k points you come up with such an idea. you should rather be happy the stagnation in this game has come to an end and there are obviously more things to find.

As I've said before, it's not about the scale of the glitch, it's about the nature. If the glitch in part 1 TSBTC with the infinite Lockjaw yielded a thousand points I would still consider it objectionable.

@ DTUCC: Thanks for the detailed response. At least we're on the same page now.

I still find that I can't agree with you, but there's not much anyone can do about that. I would tend to judge glitches on how 'possible' you can conceive them in a gaming world. It is extremely difficult to explain but somehow rolling off a piggy bank and gaining lift from it makes sense, while exiting and re-entering levels like a ghost and obtaining infinite powerups, doesn't.

Ultimately it's down to gaming preferences, and while I understand your position, I can't bring myself to your level of acceptance. The IPG is an excellent discovery and if we do decide to use it I will not be upset, but it will never get my blessing. I suppose there are others here who share my sentiments. The best solution is to agree to disagree and be civil about it.

The main issue is how we deal with things like this that crop up, which describes my key involvement in the debate. A public vote seems like a sensible idea. What are your views on this?

New rules for the HOF also seems like a reasonable idea. I await MandM's suggestions... perhaps entry validation?

[rolesfamily]

- And on a side note I'm currently trying to improve my score on TSBTC. And ANOTHER side-note, is it just me who really hates the wintery music on this level?

[Dart]

it grates by the end of the world, but the first 2 minutes of it aren't that bad.

[sfn42]

@Xenon: The great thing about the HoF is that it's public, free and, most importantly, you just have to enter the code that the game gives you. Entry validation would defeat all that because all, of a sudden, you couldn't just enter your code, it isn't free anymore. Validation would mean that there is some type of committee that determines who is actually allowed to enter their scores. As I've written before, the HoF is (and should be) for all R3 players, everyone has equal rights to it and validation would undermine that. Essentially, a HoF with validation is no different than posting a list of all players and scores in the first post of this thread. It goes against everything that the current HoF stands for: freedom, fairness and convenience.

I had been thinking about a public vote but I just don't think it is a reliable measure in this specific case. Based on the responses so far, we wouldn't expect a landslide, but rather, a narrow vote, that could be decided by every single vote. Now, there is the possibility that someone who is very invested in this issue asks a friend or maybe even several friends to vote, even though they haven't followed this discussion at all and have no idea what it's actually about. Would you be happy with a vote under such circumstances? Sure, we could limit who is actually allowed to vote but that would defeat the very purpose of a public vote and I cannot think of any objective and relevant and, thus, fair, criteria to decide who is actually allowed to vote.

I have no problems with your feelings about the IPG, I can even understand them to some degree. My main problem with all of this is that some people here are trying to enforce rules on how this game should be played based on their personal feelings. This is the “narrowmindedness” (to quote myself here) I have been speaking about. The split HoF-idea is the consequence of that and everyone who has advocated it, is guilty of trying to enforce their personal feeling as general rules to some degree. I am beating a dead horse now, but I can't seem to get the following through to you, as it seems: None of you have delivered any objective and relevant criteria, that still stand under close scrutiny, for why the IPG should be banned or split. As long as nobody brings up such reasons, I will never agree to splitting the HoF in any way shape or form because it would completely destroy the integrity, fairness and objectivity of the HoF, of the competition and of the scoring system itself.

@rolesfamily: It's nice to see you improving your score amidst all this controversy. Personally, I love the music in SBTC, especially the tracks in the snowboarding part. It's the level itself that I can't stand, though.

[MandM81]

You have repeatedly referred to the HoF as "our HoF", essentially including yourself, but excluding CC, MG, Cut and me.

Let me be clear, I claim no right to the HoF. It was and is meant as a subtle reference to the "us and them" theme you have created on the German forum. As soon as you found the glitch, you password protected your forum, thus excluding any players in this forum from visiting your site and talk about the fascinating game that is R3. At the same time you (the German trio) entered this forum boasting new maximum scores and refused to answer any questions how they were anchieved. "It is a (German) forum project" was the answer we got. And yet, you enter your scores into "our" HoF without even notifying Hunchman or the HoF moderators about the controversial glitch. And now you have the audacity to dictate how the HoF should be managed? It is not "your" HoF to do with as you please and in my book you clearly have overstepped a line by not notifying the proper "authorities" in RPC.

I think you know that. Why else turn up in this forum after a very long hiatus the very same day the glitch came to our attention? And to top it off, you seemed so much in a defensive mode you attacked both individual players and the RPC in general.

And before you apply to this post, if you chose to do so, I urge you to take a deep breath and have a lie down before writing.

[MandM81]

Well, you didn’t really answer the question. I’m aware you can start the combo at 99.999 + 1.500 points and reach a combo of 16.910 - 1.500 = 15.410 points. But 15.410 is not divisible by 20 either, so you manage to get rid of the Powersuit from IPG in the middle of the combo? How exactly do you do that?

You can end on other elements than green gems, for example yellow or red gems, wooden doors or piggy banks, which add 10 or 30 points to your total, respectively.

I'm all aware of that. I'm not sure if you're deliberately obfuscating or if I can't make myself clear. Obviously you use the IPG in your combo, but how can you get 10 of 30 points while wearing a Powersuit? You can't, so I ask again, how do you manage to get rid of the Powersuit in order to get these 10 points or 30 points into your combo?

If that is still unclear, please show a video of the last combo so we can see for ourselves.

[Cut]

Well, you didn’t really answer the question. I’m aware you can start the combo at 99.999 + 1.500 points and reach a combo of 16.910 - 1.500 = 15.410 points. But 15.410 is not divisible by 20 either, so you manage to get rid of the Powersuit from IPG in the middle of the combo? How exactly do you do that?

You can end on other elements than green gems, for example yellow or red gems, wooden doors or piggy banks, which add 10 or 30 points to your total, respectively.

I'm all aware of that. I'm not sure if you're deliberately obfuscating or if I can't make myself clear. Obviously you use the IPG in your combo, but how can you get 10 of 30 points while wearing a Powersuit? You can't, so I ask again, how do you manage to get rid of the Powersuit in order to get these 10 points or 30 points into your combo?

If that is still unclear, please show a video of the last combo so we can see for ourselves.

sweetheart, just remember how the maximum in LOTLD improved from 119.599 to 121.099. And now imagine the final object wouldn't had been a green but a yellow gem. But to be fair I must say that the try wasn't that bad

[Haruka]

You have repeatedly referred to the HoF as "our HoF", essentially including yourself, but excluding CC, MG, Cut and me.

Let me be clear, I claim no right to the HoF. It was and is meant as a subtle reference to the "us and them" theme you have created on the German forum. As soon as you found the glitch, you password protected your forum, thus excluding any players in this forum from visiting your site and talk about the fascinating game that is R3. At the same time you (the German trio) entered this forum boasting new maximum scores and refused to answer any questions how they were anchieved. "It is a (German) forum project" was the answer we got. And yet, you enter your scores into "our" HoF without even notifying Hunchman or the HoF moderators about the controversial glitch. And now you have the audacity to dictate how the HoF should be managed? It is not "your" HoF to do with as you please and in my book you clearly have overstepped a line by not notifying the proper "authorities" in RPC.

I think you know that. Why else turn up in this forum after a very long hiatus the very same day the glitch came to our attention? And to top it off, you seemed so much in a defensive mode you attacked both individual players and the RPC in general.

And before you apply to this post, if you chose to do so, I urge you to take a deep breath and have a lie down before writing.

Is this true? I've got to admit that I did find odd when suddenly three players get better scores than MandM in so much short ammount of time, but since I don't master the game, I could hardly reach to any conclusions.

[DTUCC]

i believe i'm the one not able to make myself clear.

have 99.989 before taking the last element of the combo. let's say at this point, the combo is 16.800. all of it has been taken with a powersuit, as the ipg doesn't allow the removal of said powersuit. you take a yellow gem, the final object of the combo. your combo goes to 16.900, still divisible by 20. your score counter pre-combo shows 100.009, thus resulting in a total score of 116.909 without ever removing the powersuit.

i'm not going to be assuming you have any intentions when repeatedly asking the same question over and over, but it really shouldn't come as a surprise to you if anyone might get the suspicion that you're deliberately pretend not to understand just so i make a video of a combo you can very well find yourself. you know how many points the final combo is worth now. it's simple math at this point.

i hope this solves any misunderstanding about my score, because if it doesn't, I have no idea how else to respond, and i'm sorry about that :/

[sfn42]

I have argued that the HoF is free, public and for everyone, to equal rights. Yet, you say that there are some kind of "authorities" here, that should be "notified". This is exactly the point I am making, if the HoF is free, then there should be no such authorities, yet you keep assuming that there, thus creating some kind of HoF-hierarchy. I do not know why you keep doing that. I have never put myself in a higher position than anyone else with regards to that. I said that I have the same rights to it as every other Rayman 3 player and I will stand by that, even though you want to deny me these rights.

We considered and still consider the IPG an amazing discovery and not controversial in any way. I came back to discuss this amazing discovery with the people here (as I stated in my very first post since coming back) and I was honestly surprised by the controversy it created. CC has explained in much detail in September on why we didn't publish our reasons. I invite you to go back and re-read these posts. The reasons are still the same. We felt no duty to inform anyone of anything for two reasons: the equality of the HoF, as stated above, and the fact that none of us consider the IPG to be problematic in any way. We (and also Sajiki) have provided many objective reasons why we do not consider it problematic.

I do not know why you feel the need to herd authorities over me and try to marginalize my rights to the HoF.

[MandM81]

i'm not going to be assuming you have any intentions when repeatedly asking the same question over and over, but it really shouldn't come as a surprise to you if anyone might get the suspicion that you're deliberately pretend not to understand just so i make a video of a combo you can very well find yourself. you know how many points the final combo is worth now. it's simple math at this point.

You can assume what you like. I didn't ask for a video, I asked a simple question and got a vague answer.

[DTUCC]

please let's not get into an argument like this again. I think i made myself clear. I provided a calculation at this point, which should get this issue out of the way. I only felt offended when you began to assume I was "deliberately obfuscating" while I just tried to get my point across. That's all.

whether the phrase "please show a video" is asking for a video, requesting it, or just providing an idea to help me get my point across is maybe not for me to decide. i do however believe it's understandable that i misinterpreted it.

let's move on to more important concerns now