Rayman 3 scores
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Hunchman801
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Well I'd be interested in reading a technical explanation of why it happens, as someone mentioned earlier in this thread that you had a perfect understanding of the game mechanics.Cut said:
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I could repeat this over and over again, the best way to understand the IPG best is playing TOTL 2, do explorations on everything you can image. If everyone would have done this, the quality of our/your discussion over the last days would have been much better.
The main point of the IPG is: Rayman get's access to the gameplay while the game is in a cutscene. Or better: You create a glitchy mixed state of Ingame and Cutscene. Cutscenes have the characteristic of no apparent health-bar, and the powerup-timer is directly connected with the health-bar.
Another main point relates to a principle the programmers of Rayman 3 had: every graphical element in the game represents it's own data, there is no separate variable saved in the RAM directly connected to a graphical element in the game. In layman's terms: the scoreboard doesn't show your score, but your score is what the scoreboard shows (you can try this out by cheat-engine: it's not possible to get access to the ingame-scoreboard by the RAM-search, because there is no value in the RAM for your score). And when you are in a mixed-state of cutscene and ingame where the health-bar is invisible, it's simply: your powerup can't run out when there is no timer which contains the data related to the powerup's rest-time. Actually the data are still there, they are just invisible (this is the reason why the scoreboard and the health-bar still work/exist when you are in IPG-mode) but there is one problem with the powerup: when you're wearing a powerup, the health-bar is continuasly visible but will return to the normal appear-reappear-state when the powerup ran out. This status-switch can't be done when the health-bar was invisible all the time (due to wrong input-informations about the visibility of the health-bar), and this swap is directly connected to the powerup-runout. You will here the Runout-sound ingame because the timer-data are still there, but the routine which will switch the health-bar off after a powerup ran out is broke due to the invisibility of the health-bar, and it's the same routine which would had swapped Rayman's status from Power-Up to normal back.
This is the most simple (or simpliest?) explanation I can give and sure you would be interested in how to create these glitchy mixed-states, but I will follow with this later, because for this explanation, it's 100% necessary to know how the IPG works ingame, otherwise you probably won't understand it. And to be honest, explaining this is a bit stressfull due to my english-skills, but I will tell you the rest. Need just a little bit time to choose my words.
The main point of the IPG is: Rayman get's access to the gameplay while the game is in a cutscene. Or better: You create a glitchy mixed state of Ingame and Cutscene. Cutscenes have the characteristic of no apparent health-bar, and the powerup-timer is directly connected with the health-bar.
Another main point relates to a principle the programmers of Rayman 3 had: every graphical element in the game represents it's own data, there is no separate variable saved in the RAM directly connected to a graphical element in the game. In layman's terms: the scoreboard doesn't show your score, but your score is what the scoreboard shows (you can try this out by cheat-engine: it's not possible to get access to the ingame-scoreboard by the RAM-search, because there is no value in the RAM for your score). And when you are in a mixed-state of cutscene and ingame where the health-bar is invisible, it's simply: your powerup can't run out when there is no timer which contains the data related to the powerup's rest-time. Actually the data are still there, they are just invisible (this is the reason why the scoreboard and the health-bar still work/exist when you are in IPG-mode) but there is one problem with the powerup: when you're wearing a powerup, the health-bar is continuasly visible but will return to the normal appear-reappear-state when the powerup ran out. This status-switch can't be done when the health-bar was invisible all the time (due to wrong input-informations about the visibility of the health-bar), and this swap is directly connected to the powerup-runout. You will here the Runout-sound ingame because the timer-data are still there, but the routine which will switch the health-bar off after a powerup ran out is broke due to the invisibility of the health-bar, and it's the same routine which would had swapped Rayman's status from Power-Up to normal back.
This is the most simple (or simpliest?) explanation I can give and sure you would be interested in how to create these glitchy mixed-states, but I will follow with this later, because for this explanation, it's 100% necessary to know how the IPG works ingame, otherwise you probably won't understand it. And to be honest, explaining this is a bit stressfull due to my english-skills, but I will tell you the rest. Need just a little bit time to choose my words.
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Just replayed some old levels I neglected and made some SERIOUS (personal) breakthroughs! I started today with 310k points, now I'm at 360k!!!
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Sfn: I’m not going write an essay refuting all of your ad hoc theories and distinctions. I’ll just comment a few.
Local/global: I have given my definitions. I’m sure you can understand the concepts as described.
Game-changing: If a glitch allows you to wear a Powersuit outside the normal range for the gameplay and if a glitch allows you to enter and/or exit a room where the normal gameplay doesn’t, then the glitch has changed the game. IPG does that, thus it’s a game-changing glitch.
Exocentricity: They way Cut described the glitch; one has to modify the settings on pc to make it work. Isn’t that exocentric? And who says you’re not allowed to turn off the pc or console?
You also seem to be confused about the concepts of objective vs subjective. So far I have seen the following arguments from you for allowing the IPG into the HoF:
IPG should be allowed because it is pre-existent, thus all pre-existent glitches are acceptable. Objective.
MG shouldn’t be allowed because the scoring is not challenging. Subjective.
IPG should count because it makes certain parts challenging in relation to scoring. Subjective.
I’m a bit confused: Do you want to allow pre-existent glitches into HoF? If you don’t want to allow all these glitches into HoF, which one should count and which ones shouldn’t? Do you imagine we should go through such arguments every time we come across a glitch of this nature?
The IPG has the exact same characteristics as this cheat, which we don’t allow.
The IPG and the cheat are indistiguishable. The cheat can easily be used and explained as the use of IPG.
I hereby renew my objections against allowing the IPG into the HoF.
Local/global: I have given my definitions. I’m sure you can understand the concepts as described.
Game-changing: If a glitch allows you to wear a Powersuit outside the normal range for the gameplay and if a glitch allows you to enter and/or exit a room where the normal gameplay doesn’t, then the glitch has changed the game. IPG does that, thus it’s a game-changing glitch.
Exocentricity: They way Cut described the glitch; one has to modify the settings on pc to make it work. Isn’t that exocentric? And who says you’re not allowed to turn off the pc or console?
You also seem to be confused about the concepts of objective vs subjective. So far I have seen the following arguments from you for allowing the IPG into the HoF:
IPG should be allowed because it is pre-existent, thus all pre-existent glitches are acceptable. Objective.
MG shouldn’t be allowed because the scoring is not challenging. Subjective.
IPG should count because it makes certain parts challenging in relation to scoring. Subjective.
I’m a bit confused: Do you want to allow pre-existent glitches into HoF? If you don’t want to allow all these glitches into HoF, which one should count and which ones shouldn’t? Do you imagine we should go through such arguments every time we come across a glitch of this nature?
The IPG has the exact same characteristics as this cheat, which we don’t allow.
The IPG and the cheat are indistiguishable. The cheat can easily be used and explained as the use of IPG.
I hereby renew my objections against allowing the IPG into the HoF.
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MandM81 said:
I said that the IPG may work BETTER if you set the resolution to lowest, which is just a subjective perseption of mine without any empirical ratifications (BTW, we PC-players were lucky enough to find even a way to trigger the IPG. The speedrunners community haven't found a way to trigger it on PC until I showed them yesterday, and they are literally the kings of glitch-finding).
This is the proof that you never tested the IPG for longer than 5 minutes. This is just ridicously wrong, I'm sorry for choosing such harsh words. The IPG brought us tons of problems, obstacles and limitations in our possibilities which we wouldn't have with the CheatEngine-mechanism. But well...MandM81 said:
RibShark said:
The Lavicraft's healthbar ist just glitchy. I weakend the left one already with 2 fully charged and 2 weak hits.
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MandM81 said:I missed this part. Well, obviously I was going for the top spot. And I got there without performance enhancing glitches.
if you don't count the razoff glitch, lums glitches in DOTK, SBTC, HH and TOTL and several launching glitches, then yes, you are probably right.
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From what I understood the IPG was only on the 2nd bit of the Leptys?
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No need to get all riled up, you misunderstood the point. I made no comments about triggering the glitch at all, but thank you for explaining that the challenge in the game is now triggering glitches.Cut said:
The cheat and the IPG, when triggered, works in exactly the same way. One is banned, one aims for acceptance.
Pc players don't actually have to bother triggering the IPG, they can just use the cheat and claim to be using the IPG.
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A message to sfn: do you really think the game itself should decide everything? A couple of pages back you questioned why I kept bringing up imaginary glitches, and this is the answer. If you accept that there may be times when we will have to make decisions regarding the legitimacy of glitches, then your argument is not watertight. Since you came here and started discussing this issue, your main point of attack has been 'stop trying to dictate how to play the game' or words to that effect, and you've been arguing them in an increasingly aggressive and sometimes condescending manner.
If you really think that we cannot make any decisions, as a community, regardless of the scale of the problem, then I think you are either naive or don't care about preserving the excellent scoring qualities of the game.
If you think we can make decisions (depending on the nature of the problem, of course), then why don't you just take CC's position? He seems to be suggesting that it's right to have discussions about game-changing issues, but he also defends the use of the IPG. You'll certainly earn more respect from doing that than bulldozing your way through with mindless insults, generalisations and walls of text about obscure comparisons and definitions.
@ Roles: That's great news! It won't be long before you're a champ! Are you trying to improve specific levels or are you running through the game and trying to make a general total improvement?
If you really think that we cannot make any decisions, as a community, regardless of the scale of the problem, then I think you are either naive or don't care about preserving the excellent scoring qualities of the game.
If you think we can make decisions (depending on the nature of the problem, of course), then why don't you just take CC's position? He seems to be suggesting that it's right to have discussions about game-changing issues, but he also defends the use of the IPG. You'll certainly earn more respect from doing that than bulldozing your way through with mindless insults, generalisations and walls of text about obscure comparisons and definitions.
@ Roles: That's great news! It won't be long before you're a champ! Are you trying to improve specific levels or are you running through the game and trying to make a general total improvement?
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Hahah thanks Xenon xD - I focused mostly on TDOTK; as it was always a level I neglected it. When I first got Rayman 3 when I was quite young I remember always hating that level, I always found it too dark, and I always got lost haha. So in my most recent play through I kinda just played through it and got through it as fast as I could. Anyway I decided I can't 'fear' that level for ever so I went back determined to get a decent enough score in it. Also I managed to up my LOTLD score by about 20k which I was super happy with!
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Very good. Those are good levels to play. Probably the best levels in the game actually, both from a scoring point of view and an aesthetic one. 20k is a massive improvement, too, for one level! Are you going to continue?
Come to think of it, I was scared when I first played TDOTK as well. The Knaaren that particularly scared me were the ones at the base of part 2. They seemed to follow me around in the shadows, and their presence didn't become apparent until they beat me. Not to mention the noises they made, and the horrible things they said...
Come to think of it, I was scared when I first played TDOTK as well. The Knaaren that particularly scared me were the ones at the base of part 2. They seemed to follow me around in the shadows, and their presence didn't become apparent until they beat me. Not to mention the noises they made, and the horrible things they said...
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Xenon said:
Haha thanks, I know you've got like 800k in the score department, so this must seem pretty puny
Either way, I'm like the 114th so that's pretty good in my mind! Yeah I'm actually getting more confident with TDOTK; it's more of a case of 'COME AT ME BRO' rather then 'OH SHIT RUN'. And yes I'm gonna continue! Although I do have a slight fear that I'm soon to hit my talent barrier! Haha yeah the Knaaren were pains in the ass, and it didn't help that I couldn't see where I was supposed to be going half the time. It was a bad level to get stuck on!
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That's the right attitude to have. 
If you let them know who's boss, they'll probably be less likely to punnel you. They prey on the weak and vulnerable players, I reckon.
With regards to the talent barrier, you shouldn't worry about that. It bothered me too at the time but as soon as I reached 700k I realised that I didn't have a talent barrier, only a patience span and one damaged controller.
If you let them know who's boss, they'll probably be less likely to punnel you. They prey on the weak and vulnerable players, I reckon.With regards to the talent barrier, you shouldn't worry about that. It bothered me too at the time but as soon as I reached 700k I realised that I didn't have a talent barrier, only a patience span and one damaged controller.
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Xenon said:That's the right attitude to have.
With regards to the talent barrier, you shouldn't worry about that. It bothered me too at the time but as soon as I reached 700k I realised that I didn't have a talent barrier, only a patience span and one damaged controller.
Hahah thanks man, it's a pleasure to talk to you as well since I've seen you around (in old posts) but I've never had the chance to talk to you! You're a nice guy! (Don't worry I'm not hitting on you, although your Rayman 3 score is attractive).
Well I may see you up there at 700k/800k! (probably not) haha
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Xenon said:
Well, I accept this to be a point in theoretical scenarios, but not in this IPG-discussion because I don't see any danger for the scoring qualities of Rayman 3. Far from it! The IPG was the best thing what could happen to the game and happened in the at least last 5 years. I accept your worries about the game-changing but in reality, the TOTL has become a HUGE challenge. The IPG lead us to completley new possibilities of combo-design, and yeah - we developed many fantastic combos in BOTH parts 1 and 2. When I had the choice between the old TOTL and the new TOTL, I wouldn't need any second to make a decision. The TOTL is fantastic, fun and challenging, maybe it became the hardest level in the game but contratry to other levels it's a FAIR challenge not depending on luck-based glitches (as crazy as this may sound to especially MandM) as it's for instance the Razoff-Glitch (both Mansion and Dungeon). But how could you know, when you are discussing with us since one week, but until today never really played TOTL part 2 and gave the game a chance?
This is probably the main obstacle in this discussion. It's not that I can't understand your worries, and I totally agree when you say that the IPG is changing the gameplay heavily. But even the heaviest changes never automatically are bad. I can't accept for instance MandM's unshiftable opinion when he never gave the IPG just the tiniest chance. You're right when you say that we four have an unshiftable opionion too, but there is a huge difference: we are the ones who know BOTH sides. Most of you seem like being too afraid to just show a little will to experience the gameplay with the IPG, but this can't be the right way, when we are trying to make an ultimate decision about the IPG.
Apart from FC, the development of Rayman 3 has stagnated. The discovery-curve went asymptotical against zero (yeah I know, CC/MandM (don't know who was first) extended the DOTK-maximum. At this point, kind regards from a PC-player
). But then we found the IPG and it did something to the game, we never had before: it literally gave R3 a new part, or better: it replaced the old part 2 of TOTL with a new one, inculiding a megaton of new possibillites free to be explored by our creativity, and the best thing was: we found the biggest improvement since in fact the stone age. From one day to the next, this game had a scoring-potential we never had in the last 7-8 years. The last three months were the best three months I ever had with Rayman 3. We four could enjoy the pleasure of create new combos, improve existing combos and mastering a completely new challenge. After 11 years, the game obtained a completely new spirit, we felt that the game was alive. As huge as my respect may be for the FC-discoveries over the last 5 years, this was something new. This was something, I could really enjoy. This was something, which provided more points than everything else in the past. Think whatever you want about the IPG, but you have my absolute guarantee, that you will miss something great, something that will maybe never come again in this 11-year old game when you want to ban the IPG. This game is more than just the 1st rank. This game is fun. Thats the main point. If you really want to miss that, then do so. But then you should ask yourself, what were your motives in the past years when you played Rayman 3.
Hunchman801
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That's right, it's explained in the Lavicraft wiki article.Cut said:
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Hunchman801 said:
according to the article, actually every pair of Lavicrafts in the game has a different health, so I think it's not possible to simply say their resistance is 8. The resistance of the ones in TOTL part 2 is (EDIT) 9, in SBTC 2 (should be 12) and DOTK 7 it's even more.