Talk:The Magician: Difference between revisions

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:Hmm, I personally wouldn't split the article to avoid confusion between two Magicians as it's fine as it is, as least in my opinion, but it would be nice to clarify about their relationship between each other is unclear. --[[User:Strangesolo|Strangesolo]] ([[User talk:Strangesolo|talk]]) 09:53, 3 October 2024 (CEST)

::If we cannot establish for sure that they are one and the same, then I believe we should split the article, with a disambiguation disclaimer at the top and a paragraph at the end of the article headers to explain that the relationship is unclear. It would be less confusing to me, and more consistent with [[Dark Rayman|Rayman's evil clones]]. --[[User:Hoodlumsworld|Hoodlumsworld]] ([[User talk:Hoodlumsworld|talk]]) 21:27, 3 October 2024 (CEST)

::I think that for now the magician page should not be split because there may be proof that they are different characters but that information is taken from an Discarded script, plus many people think that the magician of r1 and ro are the same so splitting the magian page would give a lot of confusion then, yes, it may be that originally in Origins, Ales Mansay would be an impostor and would be different from the Magician, but I think if they release a new Rayman game, possibly Ales Mansay and Magician would be the same character (or maybe not, since it seems like every game changes some of the canon) but

:::I think that for now the magician page should not be split because there may be proof that they are different characters but that information is taken from an Discarded script, plus many people think that the magician of r1 and ro are the same so splitting the magian page would give a lot of confusion then, yes, it may be that originally in Origins, Ales Mansay would be an impostor and would be different from the Magician, but I think if they release a new Rayman game, possibly Ales Mansay and Magician would be the same character (or maybe not, since it seems like every game changes some of the canon) but whatever the original intent of The Magician in Origins was, that will have been lost at this point. --[[User:Alexlimitedgames|Alexlimitedgames]] ([[User talk:Alexlimitedgames|talk]]) 6:29, 4 October 2024 (CEST)

whatever the original intent of The Magician in Origins was, that will have been lost at this point. --[[User:Alexlimitedgames|Alexlimitedgames]] ([[User talk:Alexlimitedgames|talk]]) 6:29, 4 October 2024 (CEST)

::::RayWiki's purpose isn't necessarily to reinforce popular interpretation (take a look at the mess that is Bad Rayman and Raymesis), but to present what the games have shown as-is. If something isn't definitively stated and there is sufficient evidence for the matter to be considered ambiguous then the Wiki should portray the matter as being ambiguous, we're not the arbiter of canon nor should we be trying to dictate common belief as fact if it isn't explicitly stated as such. I agree that the beta script should not have any bearing on what we consider to be "canonical fact," but we should still relay possible intent, but with the caveat that this wasn't shown in the end and this shouldn't be considered as the actual circumstance and situation as far as the presented story is told. To that end, if there isn't any explicit link between the Magician as he is in Rayman 1, and how he is in the UbiArt era, and there's enough reasonable doubt to them being the same, then we should split the article.

::::From what's been discussed in the forums, my takeaway is that there's enough doubt in that it's never stated outright that the Magician in Rayman Origins is the same as the Magician from Rayman 1, as was done for other returning characters. While the script isn't canonical it does imply a sense that the Magician wasn't intended to be the same, now we can't take that as canonical fact, but we can at least gleam some authorial intent. Combine that with no explicit link mentioned by the authors, and I think while there's no canonical evidence for a link or no link either ways, there is enough to justify us keeping them as separate entities until a future game or future information proves otherwise. Or put simply, we can't definitively prove they are the same, but we can't prove that they are different either, and the safer option is probably to assume they're different but mention the possibility of being the same, but explain the ambiguity. --[[User:Master|Master]] ([[User talk:Master|talk]]) 18:23, 4 October 2024 (CEST)

@@ Line 147: / Line 147: @@
 :Hmm, I personally wouldn't split the article to avoid confusion between two Magicians as it's fine as it is, as least in my opinion, but it would be nice to clarify about their relationship between each other is unclear. --[[User:Strangesolo|Strangesolo]] ([[User talk:Strangesolo|talk]]) 09:53, 3 October 2024 (CEST)
 ::If we cannot establish for sure that they are one and the same, then I believe we should split the article, with a disambiguation disclaimer at the top and a paragraph at the end of the article headers to explain that the relationship is unclear. It would be less confusing to me, and more consistent with [[Dark Rayman|Rayman's evil clones]]. --[[User:Hoodlumsworld|Hoodlumsworld]] ([[User talk:Hoodlumsworld|talk]]) 21:27, 3 October 2024 (CEST)
-::I think that for now the magician page should not be split because there may be proof that they are different characters but that information is taken from an Discarded script, plus many people think that the magician of r1 and ro are the same so splitting the magian page would give a lot of confusion then, yes, it may be that originally in Origins, Ales Mansay would be an impostor and would be different from the Magician, but I think if they release a new Rayman game, possibly Ales Mansay and Magician would be the same character (or maybe not, since it seems like every game changes some of the canon) but
+:::I think that for now the magician page should not be split because there may be proof that they are different characters but that information is taken from an Discarded script, plus many people think that the magician of r1 and ro are the same so splitting the magian page would give a lot of confusion then, yes, it may be that originally in Origins, Ales Mansay would be an impostor and would be different from the Magician, but I think if they release a new Rayman game, possibly Ales Mansay and Magician would be the same character (or maybe not, since it seems like every game changes some of the canon) but whatever the original intent of The Magician in Origins was, that will have been lost at this point. --[[User:Alexlimitedgames|Alexlimitedgames]] ([[User talk:Alexlimitedgames|talk]]) 6:29, 4 October 2024 (CEST)
-whatever the original intent of The Magician in Origins was, that will have been lost at this point. --[[User:Alexlimitedgames|Alexlimitedgames]] ([[User talk:Alexlimitedgames|talk]]) 6:29, 4 October 2024 (CEST)
+::::RayWiki's purpose isn't necessarily to reinforce popular interpretation (take a look at the mess that is Bad Rayman and Raymesis), but to present what the games have shown as-is. If something isn't definitively stated and there is sufficient evidence for the matter to be considered ambiguous then the Wiki should portray the matter as being ambiguous, we're not the arbiter of canon nor should we be trying to dictate common belief as fact if it isn't explicitly stated as such. I agree that the beta script should not have any bearing on what we consider to be "canonical fact," but we should still relay possible intent, but with the caveat that this wasn't shown in the end and this shouldn't be considered as the actual circumstance and situation as far as the presented story is told. To that end, if there isn't any explicit link between the Magician as he is in Rayman 1, and how he is in the UbiArt era, and there's enough reasonable doubt to them being the same, then we should split the article.
+::::From what's been discussed in the forums, my takeaway is that there's enough doubt in that it's never stated outright that the Magician in Rayman Origins is the same as the Magician from Rayman 1, as was done for other returning characters. While the script isn't canonical it does imply a sense that the Magician wasn't intended to be the same, now we can't take that as canonical fact, but we can at least gleam some authorial intent. Combine that with no explicit link mentioned by the authors, and I think while there's no canonical evidence for a link or no link either ways, there is enough to justify us keeping them as separate entities until a future game or future information proves otherwise. Or put simply, we can't definitively prove they are the same, but we can't prove that they are different either, and the safer option is probably to assume they're different but mention the possibility of being the same, but explain the ambiguity. --[[User:Master|Master]] ([[User talk:Master|talk]]) 18:23, 4 October 2024 (CEST)