Rayman 2

[Master]

Meh, the whole R1/R2 divide is probably one of the biggest continuity flaws the series has, though it seems that the UbiArt series tried trying to cobble them together by retconning some out the limbless factor on more popular characters. I think the intention at that point was to write off the limblessness of those characters as never being a trait of theirs.

In terms of wackiness, it does seem to me that RO tried to again, merge the more earthly concepts from R2 and R3 with the more outrageous wacky worlds from R1. Areas like the Desert of Dijiridoos and Gourmand Land used rather earth-like areas for their base, but populated them with the relevant wacky decor.

[Shrooblord]

Is Polokus ever referred to as a god? I got the impression he was a spirit of the world, almost like the Native American view of spirits of nature and life.

I don't see any difference beyond the semantic.

No, I guess not. It's indeed more of a personal view of what you'd call godly and spiritual. I guess by spirit, I mean something that is more connected to the plain it reigns over, almost like it's intertwined with it, while gods would simply rule over the lands they govern as if they were kings with supernatural powers. I like the idea of Polokus being a spirit, in that sense, more than a god, because he is fragile as much as the world itself is. The entire thing relies on the balance of power, a balance quite frequently thrown out of whack in the series.

And then there's the issue with gods effectively dying if noone were to believe in them, which, I think, is not something that would happen to Polokus (in fact, it might even be advantageous as opposed to deleterious if nobody knew of Polokus or the Heart of the World, seeing how many times people have tried to harm or misuse either one).
Gods need faith to derive their power from. Spirits need to be connected to their world. Or at least, that's how I've come to see things.


On the topic of the French-to-English translations of the HotW, has anyone found any significant errors such as spiraldoor hints at?

[spiraldoor]

Kinda ticked off how they never exactly gave an explanation for this change, cause I'm dying to know honestly. Would be nice if they tried to put a story around it, why all the worlds are so wacky and why everyone is limbless, but they'll probably leave it in the dust.

Don't hold your breath. There never was an explanation, and the developers clearly aren't going to make a continuity-heavy game that gives detailed explanations of differences in setting between decades-old games. Some attempt was made to address the R1/R2 divide in Origins, and the results were messy to the point of killing much of my interest in the world of the series. They should just leave it.

And then there's the issue with gods effectively dying if noone were to believe in them, which, I think, is not something that would happen to Polokus

I'm pretty sure that's not an aspect of any notable mythology. It sounds more like something a modern fantasy writer came up with. Maybe Pratchett or Gaiman.

[Shrooblord]

Hah it was Pratchett I got that from, yes. The Last Hero, to be specific.

Although I've seen it referenced in many other things too, notably fictions of the modern era, again. Perhaps. I like that idea though. It makes sense... kind of? It doesn't for the higher nature gods such as Gaia and Ouranos, but it would for gods like Zeus (and I know I'm bending it - I have been schooled in Greek mythology, but interpreting it differently here).

But to put it more realistically, gods do die when nobody worships them anymore. We don't think of the Greek or Roman gods as deities anymore, but rather as characters from fictional stories. Perhaps one day the same will happen to the modern gods of religions alive nowadays. In the end, gods suffer the same fates as humans do - they become stories rather than living entities, although they have a far longer lifespan than their mortal counterparts.

[spiraldoor]

Although I've seen it referenced in many other things too, notably fictions of the modern era, again. Perhaps. I like that idea though. It makes sense... kind of? It doesn't for the higher nature gods such as Gaia and Ouranos, but it would for gods like Zeus (and I know I'm bending it - I have been schooled in Greek mythology, but interpreting it differently here).

Considering that the gods seems to form an established order some time before Prometheus creates humanity, and that no significant change to their order follows this event, any serious application of the idea seems pretty dubious. It works if you view the gods as a projection of humanity's collective consciousness (which is obviously true in reality), but in mythological terms it makes no sense at all.

[Shrooblord]

This is what I meant by saying I was 'bending it', yes. I like the idea more of gods dying out from lack of belief because that's basically what happens to them in reality.

[Haruka]

He never had the power to make a guardian or a temple suitable for containing that particular mask.

Which never made any sense. How can he have dreamt the universe into existence, yet have no power a couple of miles into the air? Normally I try not to overthink plot devices like this, but surely they could have come up with a better excuse for Rayman having to take on Razorbeard himself – one that doesn't diminish Polokus's role as creator god quite so severely?

Something I also never got quite well either, unless since he "just awake" from the many years of sleep, he didn't have enough energy to take care of the pirates himself? More like we just awake in an early morning and feel very sleepy for a while, but only some time after we are fully awaken and aware to everything. Do you guys get what I mean? It is the only fan-explanation I can think of. But now that I think of that, Polokus didn't manage to take care of the nightmares in Rayman Origins/Legends either so...

I'd forgotten about those statues – or should we say fossils? They add another layer to the proceedings all right. (I remember someone on here telling me not to waste time trying to interpret them, saying that they were simply models reused out of laziness – what a frightfully dull attitude!)

Those statues always intrigued me. I don't know what they are suppoused to mean. Are they statues created by magical/dead creatures in order to represent the pirate's future? Or would it have other obscure meaning?

There's certainly a cyclical aspect to the Rayman series, with an assault on the Heart of the World and a plunge into metaphysical chaos initiating each adventure, followed by Rayman working to restore the status quo. Maybe that's what the O on his chest really signifies.

That's an interesting theory, although back in the Rayman Origins waiting, I theorized that the O could somehow represent the sun, since Rayman's creation is linked to the light/rays. I think there's still the discussion in the RayWiki. But it definitely has got a special meaning: it isn't randomly that this symbol appears in the pillars of the Four Masks, created much before Rayman's birth.

In terms of gods and power, it would appear that Leptys is actually superior to Polokus, since it appears to have control over lums (it can transform black lums into red ones, and even clone black lums), which themselves are responsible for the creation and continued sovereignty of Polokus.

Also, I noticed in that discussion about Grolem 13, something was mentioned about the original guardians' names meaning something. Is there anything to this?

That's possible. Leptys lent some power to Reflux to get that brutal mutation and yet fusing with André inside to be able to create more Black Lums/Hoodlums and recover energy.

As far as I'm aware Grolem 13 means more like a "thrown filename" rather than a meaning of something. It sounds so artificial!

For the other guardians, what I know is that Agagl is the onomatopoeia of the feel of cold (the equivalent to the english "brrrr").

The name "Tomb of the Ancients" might be somewhat of a mistranslation, seeing as it gives off a different vibe than the original French name.
Although I really like the thought that the Ancients were beings that existed a long time ago (I even use that in Dreambound), and although it would be amazing if there was some kind of cyclic history in the Rayman universe, we might just have been wrong by thinking about ancient things this whole time!

In the original French name "Le Tombeau des Anciens", the word ancien in French of course means ancient when looked at as an adjective, but as a noun, it means "predecessor in a function". The robots in the Tomb of the Ancients might simply be Razorbeard's predecessors - the previous captains of the Robo-Pirate army.
But that would raise more questions: why would his predecessors be buried in the Glade? The war hasn't been raging on for that long, has it?

Wow, I didn't know there was a mistranslation somehow. This only makes things even more intriguing. Joining this to the mysteriously placed 1000th Lum in it...

The issue there is that according to the Knowledge of the World, Polokus was present when time was being made. However, according to BBDisc the dawn of time was when the lums began to emanate from the disc, which is how Polokus came to be in the first place. The contradiction lies with the lums.

It does not say that Lums didn't exist before they began to emanate from the center of the disc though. If you consider the Lums emanating as some sort of consequence of the creation of time, it makes perfect sense. Lums formed Polokus, Polokus created everything and then went on to create time with the other gods. Afterwards, Lums began to come out of the center of the disc-shaped Glade (the Heart of the World, most likely) and the gods fought over the Lums.

Pretty much what Droolie said. Before Polokus there were already some Lums, and more Lums could emerge after the creation of time.

Perhaps there are more worlds with living orgasms just like Rayman's world.

Globox is so damn sexy, I bet when Rayman sees him he is indeed a living orgasm!

*Snorts* xD!

Looking back at the Knowledge of the World, it doesn't say anything about Polokus creating the world. It says that he was created by the Lums, and that he created the creatures of the world before meeting with the other gods of the other worlds to create time. Clark was created to carve out the landscape, meaning that Polokus didn't create the landscape, or that he wasn't able to make it the way he wanted solo.

If the "emanations" are meant to represent the creation of the Lums, maybe Polokus wasn't one of the gods who fought at the dawn of time? Maybe he was born later, after the war between the older gods?

More confusion. Should we believe more in the Knowledge of the World for being present in more versions of the game? At the same time I don't know, just by remembering the controversy of the Red Globox.

Is Polokus ever referred to as a god? I got the impression he was a spirit of the world, almost like the Native American view of spirits of nature and life.

I don't see any difference beyond the semantic.

No, I guess not. It's indeed more of a personal view of what you'd call godly and spiritual. I guess by spirit, I mean something that is more connected to the plain it reigns over, almost like it's intertwined with it, while gods would simply rule over the lands they govern as if they were kings with supernatural powers. I like the idea of Polokus being a spirit, in that sense, more than a god, because he is fragile as much as the world itself is. The entire thing relies on the balance of power, a balance quite frequently thrown out of whack in the series.

And then there's the issue with gods effectively dying if noone were to believe in them, which, I think, is not something that would happen to Polokus (in fact, it might even be advantageous as opposed to deleterious if nobody knew of Polokus or the Heart of the World, seeing how many times people have tried to harm or misuse either one).
Gods need faith to derive their power from. Spirits need to be connected to their world. Or at least, that's how I've come to see things.

I admit I've always interpreted Polokus as a god, but now that you share those thoughts, I think you are right. Polokus doesn't seem to be that powerful, especial with his roles in Origins and Legends.

My heaaaaaaaaaaad!

[Master]

Pretty much what Droolie said. Before Polokus there were already some Lums, and more Lums could emerge after the creation of time.

I did make a counter to that, though I never got a response, so here it is again:

The problem with that then lies with the state of the world, it's stated that all of the Glade had been created at that point, including Clark. If the Disc does take place after Polokus' involvement with time, I don't think it'd work with the Glade being a disc, if Clark and co. was already shaping the place up.

More confusion. Should we believe more in the Knowledge of the World for being present in more versions of the game? At the same time I don't know, just by remembering the controversy of the Red Globox.

Later material does imply that he holds a creator role, though even so, we can still just tie it in to the land of the Glade anyways, I don't think there's anything to suggest he's responsible for everything in the entire RayVerse.

I admit I've always interpreted Polokus as a god, but now that you share those thoughts, I think you are right. Polokus doesn't seem to be that powerful, especial with his roles in Origins and Legends.

Personally, I do think he has some godly power, but he's limited as he's symbiotically linked to the Glade, I think it was Shroobie who came up with an idea I like. Which is that Polokus can create from his dreams, but not change their content thereafter.

[spiraldoor]

Personally, I do think he has some godly power, but he's limited as he's symbiotically linked to the Glade, I think it was Shroobie who came up with an idea I like. Which is that Polokus can create from his dreams, but not change their content thereafter.

Unless you count destroying an army of robots single-handedly.

[Master]

Hmm, good point. Though seeing as we never see how such an undertaking was performed, it might be possible he dreamt up something powerful enough to wipe them out, as opposed to personally wiping them out himself.

[Haruka]

That is an evidence of power, but what I wanted to mean too is that I think that Polokus still didn't show his true abilities yet. I feel he is capable to do massive things that we still don't know. Just a speculation.

[Shrooblord]

Personally, I do think he has some godly power, but he's limited as he's symbiotically linked to the Glade, I think it was Shroobie who came up with an idea I like. Which is that Polokus can create from his dreams, but not change their content thereafter.

Unless you count destroying an army of robots single-handedly.

But then my theory was that the Pirates never came from Polokus's own dreams anyway. They came from outside the Glade, outside the world even - outside of his reality. They invaded like an illness that threw him into horrible nightmares, creating the creatures of the dark that inhabit the Glade after the Robot invasion.
(I mean if we're going to spin off of my ideas here, let's get them straight.)

[spiraldoor]

That would mean that he has greater power over things outside his dreams than things inside, which doesn't sound right to me.

[PluMGMK]

Well, he doesn't have power over them per se, but they are in a place where he has power to do things that can negatively affect them (basically what Master said).

[Shrooblord]

Well, he doesn't have power over them per se, but they are in a place where he has power to do things that can negatively affect them (basically what Master said).

That's more along the lines of what I'd expect to happen.


But the biggest point of my idea was that you do not control your dreams (unless you're lucid) - therefore, I assume neither can Polokus. What he dreams, he dreams, and whether that just happens to shape reality all around himself or not, is beside the point.

[PluMGMK]

He seems to be somewhat lucid (since he had purposes in mind for most of his first creations, especially the four masks).
Or maybe that's just an illusion that he maintains in the minds of the inhabitants of the Glade and it's actually all random.
But being able to maintain such an illusion would imply he was lucid anyway!

And that, my friends, is proof by contradiction that Polokus' dreams are at least somewhat lucid!

[Shrooblord]

Well, alright, if you put it that way. On the other hand, why Jano? Why bouncing eyeballs? Why Zombie Chickens, Piranhas, Black Lums and evil Knaaren (not peace-loving Knaaren - they're A-OK). They seem like figments running rampant to me. But hey - I think what I think is going on and others are inclined to think differently. That's fine.

(This makes it almost seem like a religious debate for fuck's sake.)

[PluMGMK]

(That last line was more of a Maths joke than a serious statement by the way)

Polokus' dreams are uncontrollable once made, but he can decide what he wants them to be beforehand, in the vein of some more primitive forms of so-called lucid dreaming, if I'm not mistaken. This is basically what I meant by "somewhat lucid". He can be very exact in the purpose, location and behaviour of some of his creations, even if he cannot directly control them after that. Other creations come as random nightmares (or good dreams, even though we haven't been given any specific examples of good random ones).

[Shrooblord]

That's more like what I had in mind.

[Raymanarenaps2]

Does any one strange the yellow mushroom you eat in the Fairy Glade in Rayman 2 Revolution? I was trying to find the last few lums and then some text popped up saying eat me, and turns out it shrinks Rayman in size.