Talk:Jacquouille: Difference between revisions

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== Switch it back ==

I’m not sure who decided that this was a good idea, but I would like to politely ask to please put this information back in the [[Livingstone]] article. These enemies are simply variations of the Explorer Livingstones, and aside from their clothes, they don’t act much differently. It’d be like if we made a whole separate article on the [[Hunter]]s from [[Rayman Raving Rabbids (Game Boy Advance)|the GBA version of Rayman Raving Rabbids]] just because of their different clothing. As for the name, at least in the audio files, there is only one file that calls them “Jacquouilles”, and that is, to my knowledge, only used for ambience in the [[Breathing Fire!]] level. Their voice clips and other audio files call them “bandits”, which I believe fits them better, especially taking into account their [[Ancient Egg]] heist in the opening of [[Rayman Adventures]]. I do believe that there may need to be a slight change in the article to distinguish the bandit Livingstones from their explorer counterparts, but I do not believe that it deserves an entirely different page. At the end of the day, they are still Livingstones, just in different clothing.

I’m not sure who decided that this was a good idea, but I would like to politely ask to please put this information back in the [[Livingstone]] article. These enemies are simply variations of the Explorer Livingstones, and aside from their clothes, they don’t act much differently. It’d be like if we made a whole separate article on the [[Hunter]]s from [[Rayman Raving Rabbids (Game Boy Advance)|the GBA version of Rayman Raving Rabbids]] just because of their different clothing. As for the name, at least in the audio files, there is only one file that calls them “Jacquouilles”, and that is, to my knowledge, only used for ambience in the [[Breathing Fire!]] level. Their voice clips and other audio files call them “bandits”, which I believe fits them better, especially taking into account their [[Ancient Egg]] heist in the opening of [[Rayman Adventures]]. I do believe that there may need to be a slight change in the article to distinguish the bandit Livingstones from their explorer counterparts, but I do not believe that it deserves an entirely different page. At the end of the day, they are still Livingstones, just in different clothing. {{Unsigned|RayGamer99|14:45, 23 August 2024 (UTC)}}

-RayGamer99

:Hi, the change was made in response to [https://raymanpc.com/forum/viewtopic.php?p=1468273#p1468273 this post], which requested a split at the end of last year. I suggested a compromise at the time, and eventually went ahead with it today after almost 9 months (!) without a reply.

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::Hi, I suppose your suggestions would be good courses of action. That way we can get more of the Pirate-Community's consensus on the change and see if more people do or don't feel this change is a good idea. Do what you must, and we'll see how it shakes out!

::Also, gee whiz, nearly 9 months without a reply? I suppose people just forgot about it and needed to attend to more important matters, like alphabetizing their sausages or something. -RayGamer99

::Also, gee whiz, nearly 9 months without a reply? I suppose people just forgot about it and needed to attend to more important matters, like alphabetizing their sausages or something. {{Unsigned|RayGamer99|18:36, 23 August 2024 (UTC)}}

:::Thanks for your reply! Looks like we won't have to wait 9 months this time, Droolie already chimed in [https://raymanpc.com/forum/viewtopic.php?p=1487375#p1487375 here]. —[[File:RRRGBAIcon8.png|class=sprite|link=User:Hunchman801]][[File:RRRGBAIcon0.gif|class=sprite|link=User:Hunchman801]][[File:RRRGBAIcon1.png|class=sprite|link=User:Hunchman801]] 21:46, 23 August 2024 (CEST)

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::::Additionally, “jacquouille” is only their internal names. Now sure, there are no official names for them at the moment (seriously, we need some official names for a lot of these enemies), but “Jacquouille” would take a lot of getting used to, especially since I’ve called them Livingstones all my life. If calling them Jacquouilles and giving them their own article is the preferred course of action, then I’m open to it, but I personally still see them as the same character, but in different clothes.

::::Side note: Droolie is also right about the fact that the RRR GBA [[Hunter]]s seem like essentially different Hunters thanks to their completely different appearances. I guess a better example would be if we made a separate page for the red [[Missile]]s because of their different color and behavior, or if we made a separate page for the Legends [[Blue Punch]]es because of their ability to turn red upon charging the punch and their appearance being different from the Origins versions. However, they are in the same page despite these differences, and I feel the same should go for these “Jacquouilles”. But it’s up to y’all at the end of the day. -RayGamer99

::::Side note: Droolie is also right about the fact that the RRR GBA [[Hunter]]s seem like essentially different Hunters thanks to their completely different appearances. I guess a better example would be if we made a separate page for the red [[Missile]]s because of their different color and behavior, or if we made a separate page for the Legends [[Blue Punch]]es because of their ability to turn red upon charging the punch and their appearance being different from the Origins versions. However, they are in the same page despite these differences, and I feel the same should go for these “Jacquouilles”. But it’s up to y’all at the end of the day. {{Unsigned|RayGamer99|13:48, 24 August 2024 (UTC)}}

:::::Update: I've done a little bit of digging, and in [[Sandbox]]'s description in ''[[Rayman Adventures]]'', it says that "Lividstones attacked their castle". Since "Jacquouilles" are commonly found in castles (and since the Origins Lividstones are, to my knowledge, only found in one [[Toad Story]] level in Adventures), it is likely that they are referring to the bandit-dressed Lividstones. They are also referred to as Lividstones in [[:File:Adventures enemies Facebook.jpg|that one social media post]] with the [[Swordsman Ninja]]s (which, according to [[Sakura]]'s description, is not stolen from the RayWiki and is indeed their official names). Not sure if this changes anything, but I just wanted to put here that there is, in fact, an official source that calls the "Jacquouilles" Lividstones. -RayGamer99

:::::Update: I've done a little bit of digging, and in [[Sandbox]]'s description in ''[[Rayman Adventures]]'', it says that "Lividstones attacked their castle". Since "Jacquouilles" are commonly found in castles (and since the Origins Lividstones are, to my knowledge, only found in one [[Toad Story]] level in Adventures), it is likely that they are referring to the bandit-dressed Lividstones. They are also referred to as Lividstones in [[:File:Adventures enemies Facebook.jpg|that one social media post]] with the [[Swordsman Ninja]]s (which, according to [[Sakura]]'s description, is not stolen from the RayWiki and is indeed their official names). Not sure if this changes anything, but I just wanted to put here that there is, in fact, an official source that calls the "Jacquouilles" Lividstones. {{Unsigned|RayGamer99|12:38, 10 September 2024 (UTC)}}

::::::Sakura was added to the game about two years after the Swordsman Ninjas, so it's still very much possible that all names from that social media post were taken from RayWiki. Also, it says "Livingstones", not "Lividstones". Not that this consideration really matters, because you can never tell for sure what is part of a [https://raymanpc.com/forum/viewtopic.php?t=26296 feedback loop] and what is not. More important to this social media post is that it was almost certainly written by a random community manager intern at Ubisoft, and therefore not of the highest level of canonicity.

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:::::::I read the whole feedback loop thread, and at this point, I’m appalled (and a little proud) at how much Ubisoft copies from the RayWiki. They use our character names, our images, our information, and yet they refuse to credit us? I say this calls for action. A court case is definitely a lot, but we ought to do something. We can’t have them “borrowing” our stuff and not even giving us credit (or Rayman 4)!

:::::::Anyway, I understand that the “Jacquouilles” are still Lividstones, but my point is that unlike the aforementioned little Livingstones (in their case, they’re half the Livingstones’ normal sizes and twice as annoying), there are no physical or functional attributes that are particularly distinct from the Origins Lividstones that would warrant their own article. Now sure, if they charged at the player, used shields, and sometimes had parachutes, then they might be able to have their own article. Oh wait… yeah this is a difficult subject to debate, even for me. You can set up the poll if you wish, but I’m not sure enough people would care about this matter to make as big of a stink about it as we have over the past month or so. -RayGamer99

:::::::Anyway, I understand that the “Jacquouilles” are still Lividstones, but my point is that unlike the aforementioned little Livingstones (in their case, they’re half the Livingstones’ normal sizes and twice as annoying), there are no physical or functional attributes that are particularly distinct from the Origins Lividstones that would warrant their own article. Now sure, if they charged at the player, used shields, and sometimes had parachutes, then they might be able to have their own article. Oh wait… yeah this is a difficult subject to debate, even for me. You can set up the poll if you wish, but I’m not sure enough people would care about this matter to make as big of a stink about it as we have over the past month or so. {{Unsigned|RayGamer99|21:25, 10 September 2024 (UTC)}}

::::::::So, according to [https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zisQWDnI-gg this footage], it appears that ''[[Rayman Legends Retold]]'' has definitively decided to call these guys "Livingstones" rather than "Jacquouilles," just as Polokus intended! Not sure if this means that this page will get merged back into the main [[Livingstone]] article or not (I, for one, would hope so; if so, we could still make a note of their internal name on the Legends section of the main page), but it feels good that they went with that name. Despite my best efforts, I never did get used to calling the bandit Livingstones that internal name, so it's nice to know that I won't have to do that anymore! --[[User:RayGamer99|RayGamer99]] ([[User talk:RayGamer99|talk]]) 00:33, 10 June 2026 (UTC)

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:::::::::2. If a separate article is needed, what to call it?

::::::::::For my money, I would put this variant of Livingstones back into the main article and just call them "Livingstones" or "Lividstones." The name that we use would probably be based on what game they appear in; Lividstones for Origins, Legends, and the mobile spin-offs, and Livingstones in the OG games and Retold. Unlike the little Livingstones or the different colors of Henchmen 800, the only thing different about these ones are their outfits and behaviors. I think that they're similar enough to the Origins Livingstones that the extra article almost feels unnecessary; heck, we already have most of their information on the main article! I think we could hold a vote, but the last time that option was proposed, it took more than a year for this to return back to the forefront. If we do try to hold a vote, then maybe we could get it done sooner rather than later? --[[User:RayGamer99|RayGamer99]] ([[User talk:RayGamer99|talk]]) 14:51, 10 June 2026 (UTC)

:::::::::::Of course! Do you mind creating a new section in this talk page to summarize your argument and invite everyone to vote? It might be worth posting about it on the forum too, as a lot of people might not be following wiki talk pages. —[[File:RRRGBAIcon8.png|class=sprite|link=User:Hunchman801]][[File:RRRGBAIcon0.gif|class=sprite|link=User:Hunchman801]][[File:RRRGBAIcon1.png|class=sprite|link=User:Hunchman801]] 15:30, 10 June 2026 (UTC)

@@ Line 1: / Line 1: @@
 == Switch it back ==
-I’m not sure who decided that this was a good idea, but I would like to politely ask to please put this information back in the [[Livingstone]] article. These enemies are simply variations of the Explorer Livingstones, and aside from their clothes, they don’t act much differently. It’d be like if we made a whole separate article on the [[Hunter]]s from [[Rayman Raving Rabbids (Game Boy Advance)|the GBA version of Rayman Raving Rabbids]] just because of their different clothing. As for the name, at least in the audio files, there is only one file that calls them “Jacquouilles”, and that is, to my knowledge, only used for ambience in the [[Breathing Fire!]] level. Their voice clips and other audio files call them “bandits”, which I believe fits them better, especially taking into account their [[Ancient Egg]] heist in the opening of [[Rayman Adventures]]. I do believe that there may need to be a slight change in the article to distinguish the bandit Livingstones from their explorer counterparts, but I do not believe that it deserves an entirely different page. At the end of the day, they are still Livingstones, just in different clothing.
+I’m not sure who decided that this was a good idea, but I would like to politely ask to please put this information back in the [[Livingstone]] article. These enemies are simply variations of the Explorer Livingstones, and aside from their clothes, they don’t act much differently. It’d be like if we made a whole separate article on the [[Hunter]]s from [[Rayman Raving Rabbids (Game Boy Advance)|the GBA version of Rayman Raving Rabbids]] just because of their different clothing. As for the name, at least in the audio files, there is only one file that calls them “Jacquouilles”, and that is, to my knowledge, only used for ambience in the [[Breathing Fire!]] level. Their voice clips and other audio files call them “bandits”, which I believe fits them better, especially taking into account their [[Ancient Egg]] heist in the opening of [[Rayman Adventures]]. I do believe that there may need to be a slight change in the article to distinguish the bandit Livingstones from their explorer counterparts, but I do not believe that it deserves an entirely different page. At the end of the day, they are still Livingstones, just in different clothing. {{Unsigned|RayGamer99|14:45, 23 August 2024 (UTC)}}
--RayGamer99
 :Hi, the change was made in response to [https://raymanpc.com/forum/viewtopic.php?p=1468273#p1468273 this post], which requested a split at the end of last year. I suggested a compromise at the time, and eventually went ahead with it today after almost 9 months (!) without a reply.
@@ Line 9: / Line 8: @@
 ::Hi, I suppose your suggestions would be good courses of action. That way we can get more of the Pirate-Community's consensus on the change and see if more people do or don't feel this change is a good idea. Do what you must, and we'll see how it shakes out!
-::Also, gee whiz, nearly 9 months without a reply? I suppose people just forgot about it and needed to attend to more important matters, like alphabetizing their sausages or something. -RayGamer99
+::Also, gee whiz, nearly 9 months without a reply? I suppose people just forgot about it and needed to attend to more important matters, like alphabetizing their sausages or something. {{Unsigned|RayGamer99|18:36, 23 August 2024 (UTC)}}
 :::Thanks for your reply! Looks like we won't have to wait 9 months this time, Droolie already chimed in [https://raymanpc.com/forum/viewtopic.php?p=1487375#p1487375 here]. —[[File:RRRGBAIcon8.png|class=sprite|link=User:Hunchman801]][[File:RRRGBAIcon0.gif|class=sprite|link=User:Hunchman801]][[File:RRRGBAIcon1.png|class=sprite|link=User:Hunchman801]] 21:46, 23 August 2024 (CEST)
@@ Line 17: / Line 16: @@
 ::::Additionally, “jacquouille” is only their internal names. Now sure, there are no official names for them at the moment (seriously, we need some official names for a lot of these enemies), but “Jacquouille” would take a lot of getting used to, especially since I’ve called them Livingstones all my life. If calling them Jacquouilles and giving them their own article is the preferred course of action, then I’m open to it, but I personally still see them as the same character, but in different clothes.
-::::Side note: Droolie is also right about the fact that the RRR GBA [[Hunter]]s seem like essentially different Hunters thanks to their completely different appearances. I guess a better example would be if we made a separate page for the red [[Missile]]s because of their different color and behavior, or if we made a separate  page for the Legends [[Blue Punch]]es because of their ability to turn red upon charging the punch and their appearance being different from the Origins versions. However, they are in the same page despite these differences, and I feel the same should go for these “Jacquouilles”. But it’s up to y’all at the end of the day. -RayGamer99
+::::Side note: Droolie is also right about the fact that the RRR GBA [[Hunter]]s seem like essentially different Hunters thanks to their completely different appearances. I guess a better example would be if we made a separate page for the red [[Missile]]s because of their different color and behavior, or if we made a separate  page for the Legends [[Blue Punch]]es because of their ability to turn red upon charging the punch and their appearance being different from the Origins versions. However, they are in the same page despite these differences, and I feel the same should go for these “Jacquouilles”. But it’s up to y’all at the end of the day. {{Unsigned|RayGamer99|13:48, 24 August 2024 (UTC)}}
-:::::Update: I've done a little bit of digging, and in [[Sandbox]]'s description in ''[[Rayman Adventures]]'', it says that "Lividstones attacked their castle". Since "Jacquouilles" are commonly found in castles (and since the Origins Lividstones are, to my knowledge, only found in one [[Toad Story]] level in Adventures), it is likely that they are referring to the bandit-dressed Lividstones. They are also referred to as Lividstones in [[:File:Adventures enemies Facebook.jpg|that one social media post]] with the [[Swordsman Ninja]]s (which, according to [[Sakura]]'s description, is not stolen from the RayWiki and is indeed their official names). Not sure if this changes anything, but I just wanted to put here that there is, in fact, an official source that calls the "Jacquouilles" Lividstones. -RayGamer99
+:::::Update: I've done a little bit of digging, and in [[Sandbox]]'s description in ''[[Rayman Adventures]]'', it says that "Lividstones attacked their castle". Since "Jacquouilles" are commonly found in castles (and since the Origins Lividstones are, to my knowledge, only found in one [[Toad Story]] level in Adventures), it is likely that they are referring to the bandit-dressed Lividstones. They are also referred to as Lividstones in [[:File:Adventures enemies Facebook.jpg|that one social media post]] with the [[Swordsman Ninja]]s (which, according to [[Sakura]]'s description, is not stolen from the RayWiki and is indeed their official names). Not sure if this changes anything, but I just wanted to put here that there is, in fact, an official source that calls the "Jacquouilles" Lividstones. {{Unsigned|RayGamer99|12:38, 10 September 2024 (UTC)}}
 ::::::Sakura was added to the game about two years after the Swordsman Ninjas, so it's still very much possible that all names from that social media post were taken from RayWiki. Also, it says "Livingstones", not "Lividstones". Not that this consideration really matters, because you can never tell for sure what is part of a [https://raymanpc.com/forum/viewtopic.php?t=26296 feedback loop] and what is not. More important to this social media post is that it was almost certainly written by a random community manager intern at Ubisoft, and therefore not of the highest level of canonicity.
@@ Line 27: / Line 26: @@
 :::::::I read the whole feedback loop thread, and at this point, I’m appalled (and a little proud) at how much Ubisoft copies from the RayWiki. They use our character names, our images, our information, and yet they refuse to credit us? I say this calls for action. A court case is definitely a lot, but we ought to do something. We can’t have them “borrowing” our stuff and not even giving us credit (or Rayman 4)!
-:::::::Anyway, I understand that the “Jacquouilles” are still Lividstones, but my point is that unlike the aforementioned little Livingstones (in their case, they’re half the Livingstones’ normal sizes and twice as annoying), there are no physical or functional attributes that are particularly distinct from the Origins Lividstones that would warrant their own article. Now sure, if they charged at the player, used shields, and sometimes had parachutes, then they might be able to have their own article. Oh wait… yeah this is a difficult subject to debate, even for me. You can set up the poll if you wish, but I’m not sure enough people would care about this matter to make as big of a stink about it as we have over the past month or so. -RayGamer99
+:::::::Anyway, I understand that the “Jacquouilles” are still Lividstones, but my point is that unlike the aforementioned little Livingstones (in their case, they’re half the Livingstones’ normal sizes and twice as annoying), there are no physical or functional attributes that are particularly distinct from the Origins Lividstones that would warrant their own article. Now sure, if they charged at the player, used shields, and sometimes had parachutes, then they might be able to have their own article. Oh wait… yeah this is a difficult subject to debate, even for me. You can set up the poll if you wish, but I’m not sure enough people would care about this matter to make as big of a stink about it as we have over the past month or so. {{Unsigned|RayGamer99|21:25, 10 September 2024 (UTC)}}
 ::::::::So, according to [https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zisQWDnI-gg this footage], it appears that ''[[Rayman Legends Retold]]'' has definitively decided to call these guys "Livingstones" rather than "Jacquouilles," just as Polokus intended! Not sure if this means that this page will get merged back into the main [[Livingstone]] article or not (I, for one, would hope so; if so, we could still make a note of their internal name on the Legends section of the main page), but it feels good that they went with that name. Despite my best efforts, I never did get used to calling the bandit Livingstones that internal name, so it's nice to know that I won't have to do that anymore! --[[User:RayGamer99|RayGamer99]] ([[User talk:RayGamer99|talk]]) 00:33, 10 June 2026 (UTC)
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 :::::::::2. If a separate article is needed, what to call it?
 :::::::::In order to gets things moving, maybe we could hold a vote on the first one? —[[File:RRRGBAIcon8.png|class=sprite|link=User:Hunchman801]][[File:RRRGBAIcon0.gif|class=sprite|link=User:Hunchman801]][[File:RRRGBAIcon1.png|class=sprite|link=User:Hunchman801]] 14:16, 10 June 2026 (UTC)
+::::::::::For my money, I would put this variant of Livingstones back into the main article and just call them "Livingstones" or "Lividstones." The name that we use would probably be based on what game they appear in; Lividstones for Origins, Legends, and the mobile spin-offs, and Livingstones in the OG games and Retold. Unlike the little Livingstones or the different colors of Henchmen 800, the only thing different about these ones are their outfits and behaviors. I think that they're similar enough to the Origins Livingstones that the extra article almost feels unnecessary; heck, we already have most of their information on the main article! I think we could hold a vote, but the last time that option was proposed, it took more than a year for this to return back to the forefront. If we do try to hold a vote, then maybe we could get it done sooner rather than later? --[[User:RayGamer99|RayGamer99]] ([[User talk:RayGamer99|talk]]) 14:51, 10 June 2026 (UTC)
+:::::::::::Of course! Do you mind creating a new section in this talk page to summarize your argument and invite everyone to vote? It might be worth posting about it on the forum too, as a lot of people might not be following wiki talk pages. —[[File:RRRGBAIcon8.png|class=sprite|link=User:Hunchman801]][[File:RRRGBAIcon0.gif|class=sprite|link=User:Hunchman801]][[File:RRRGBAIcon1.png|class=sprite|link=User:Hunchman801]] 15:30, 10 June 2026 (UTC)