Talk:Bad Rayman: Difference between revisions

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== Continued nitpicking over the title of the article. ==

I find it odd that no one seems to have mentioned that "Dark Rayman," as presented in Rayman 1, is a parody of Dark Link from the Zelda series, in both appearance and behavior. This would seem to indicate that Dark Rayman would be the most appropriate title for the unnamed character.

Reading the talk page, it seems that the reason for titling the article "Bad Rayman" seems to stem from something written in the manual for the British release of ''Rayman Brain Games''. The manual for a semi-obscure edutainment spinoff seems like a bit of an iffy source to me; I can't imagine the writers were paid very much for their trouble, and were likely translating from a French manuscript.

To note, in the American copy of the game I have, the manual doesn't have any references to "Bad Rayman," though I'd like to point out that the Magician is intermittently and incorrectly referred to as "the Wizard."

Moreover, the release of Revenge of the Dark is on the somewhat distant horizon, in which the character is going to be explicitly referred to as "Dark Rayman" over the course of the game, as the primary antagonist. Assuming the game ends up being covered by the Wiki, continually referring to the character as "Bad Rayman" would be a bit confusing. --[https://www.youtube.com/channel/UC5nMFC7r5fHTOCD8qfR5pmA RayMedia]

:First of all, Revenge of the Dark is a fan-game and shouldn't influence any major changes on the wiki. Regarding the idea of Bad/Dark Rayman being based of Dark Link is only speculation. Several similar types of "evil clones" of the main character have appeared in countless games and so on and this doesn't justify a name change in any way.

:Now, looking at the facts, this is what I've got:

*[[Rayman Junior]] - According to other users on this page it calls him "Bad Rayman".

*[[Rayman Designer]] - Named "Bad Rayman" in the game.

*[[Rayman GBC]] - Simply known as "a dark version" of Rayman, which would suggest "Dark Rayman" as the name.

*[[Rayman Advance]] - Here he is named "Dark Rayman".

*[[Rayman DSi]] - Here he is also named "Dark Rayman".

*[[Rayman Classic]] - An [[List of achievements in Rayman Classic|achievement]] calls him "Bad Rayman".

:I've heard some people mention him being named "Dark Rayman" in some PS1 and Sega Saturn manuals, but I haven't seen this myself, so I can't confirm that.

:Overall it seems like "Bad Rayman" is the original name. In other discussions here on the wiki it's been decided to leave it like this and I don't see any reason why not to. There's no clear evidence towards his name being "Dark Rayman". If you however find some concrete evidence that'd be another thing, but right now it's mainly speculation.--[[File:Carrot signature.png|75px|link=User:Carrot-master]] 10:36, 2 February 2017 (UTC)

==Name==

In Rayman Advance, during this level, you can clearly see "Watch out for Dark Rayman!" therefore his name is Dark Rayman. I'd like to know one game where he is called Bad Rayman. Just name one. [[User:Sabertooth1000000000|Sabertooth1000000000]] 19:08, 28 June 2009 (UTC)

:Maths and English with Rayman/Rayman Junior's manual, ok. --[[Image:RKartHead.gif]] '''[[User:Staceyw|StaceyW]] ♬''' 19:22, 28 June 2009 (UTC)

:: This question was already answered in the [[Talk:Dark Rayman]] page. Feel free to share your thoughts over there.

:: This question was already answered in the Talk:Dark Rayman page. Feel free to share your thoughts over there.

:: [[User:Hunchman801|Hunchman801]] 00:20, 11 April 2009 (UTC)

:: Sorry for my rudeness. I was 12. [[User:Sabertooth1000000000|Sabertooth1000000000]] ([[User talk:Sabertooth1000000000|talk]]) 07:35, 3 January 2014 (CET)

29 December 2009

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:Yes, he's referred to as 'Dark Rayman' in some material, starting with Rayman Advance. —[[User:Spiraldoor|Spiraldoor]] [[File:IconSpiralDoor.png|link=User:Spiraldoor]] 13:41, 1 January 2012 (UTC)

::Exactly. But I think we ~~should~~ be very worried with the real name. --[[Image:Sparkle.gif]][[User:Haruka|Haruka]][[Image:Sparkle.gif]] 13:58, 1 January 2012 (UTC)

::Exactly. But I think we shouldn't be very worried with the real name. --[[Image:Sparkle.gif]][[User:Haruka|Haruka]][[Image:Sparkle.gif]] 13:58, 1 January 2012 (UTC)

::: What should we do now? Call him Dark Rayman again? :s--[[User:Sergiomonty|Sergiomonty]] 18:56, 1 January 2012 (UTC)

::::I think the page is fine just the way it is. —[[User:Spiraldoor|Spiraldoor]] [[File:IconSpiralDoor.png|link=User:Spiraldoor]] 19:06, 1 January 2012 (UTC)

==Raymesis==

How are we proceeding with the name change and the new Dark Rayman? --[[User:Master|Master]] ([[User talk:Master|talk]]) 18:26, 31 August 2013 (CEST)

:I defend we keep as Bad Rayman, just like we did with the Antitoons we kept their original name, and only mentioned "also known as Darktoons". We should do the same process for Bad Rayman. --[[Image:Sparkle.gif]][[User:Haruka|Haruka]][[Image:Sparkle.gif]] 12:32, 1 September 2013 (CEST)

::Very well, I've created a redirect page for Raymesis, and added the Legends character section here, so I guess alls well ends well. --[[User:Master|Master]] ([[User talk:Master|talk]]) 13:55, 1 September 2013 (CEST)

:Now this is tricky. It seems like there's three evil clones:

:*Bad Rayman, later referred to as Rayman's Wicked Double and Dark Rayman, who appears in the original game, its Game Boy Color adaptation and [[Rayman Legends]]; he appears to be a spell, copying every of Rayman's moves and causing death upon contact

:*Dark Rayman, a skin in ''Rayman Arena''

:*Raymesis, a playable character in ''Rayman Origins'' and ''Rayman Legends''

:In that regard, we could keep '''Bad Rayman''' as the main article for the first one, use '''Dark Rayman''' as a redirect, then '''Dark Rayman (Rayman Arena)''' would be used instead for the second one, and '''Raymesis''' would be the article for the third one.

:The only thing that bothers me is how much Raymesis looks like the original Bad Rayman, who is quite different from the one in ''Legends''.

:What do you guys think? —[[File:RRRGBAIcon8.png|link=User:Hunchman801]][[File:RRRGBAIcon0.gif|link=User:Hunchman801]][[File:RRRGBAIcon1.png|link=User:Hunchman801]] 14:08, 9 September 2013 (CEST)

::I agree with what you said, I also defended the original use of Bad Rayman. --[[Image:Sparkle.gif]][[User:Haruka|Haruka]][[Image:Sparkle.gif]] 15:53, 9 September 2013 (CEST)

:::I agree with you too.

:::But in ''Rayman Origins'', when you pull on the beard of Polokus with the evil clone, he says that his creator is Mr. Dark (“Blame it on Mr. Dark!”) and calls him DarkRay.

:::So I think that the evil clone from ''Origins'' is also the original Bad Rayman.

:::Raymesis appears in ''Rayman Legends'', not in ''Origins''. -- [[User:Boomboleros7|Boomboleros7]] 21:09, 9 September 2013 (CEST)

::::Then this is getting really complicated now. Raymesis from ''Legends'' looks exactly the same as the evil clone in ''Origins'', and just like we considered characters from ''Legends'' to be the same as their identical counterparts from ''Origins'' (e.g. Teensy Queen), the only way to be consistent is to assume that these two clones are the same as well. And thus a different clone from Bad Rayman, which makes sense as the latter is nothing more than a spell, not a character. But then, this becomes inconsistent with Polokus' quote in ''Origins'' which mentions Mr Dark as his creator.

::::So, unless someone can think of a better explanation, I see only two alternatives:

::::*We disregard Polokus' quote in ''Origins'' as a joke or as some oddity or incoherence and stick to the separation I mentioned above.

::::*We accept the fact that there is no way to make sense out of the contradicting information we are provided (not surprising given how much these games are focused on the story line) and keep all the “DarkRay”/Raymesis information in the Bad Rayman article, mentioning the said inconsistencies.

::::—[[File:RRRGBAIcon8.png|link=User:Hunchman801]][[File:RRRGBAIcon0.gif|link=User:Hunchman801]][[File:RRRGBAIcon1.png|link=User:Hunchman801]] 15:08, 10 September 2013 (CEST)

:::::I prefer the second option. --[[User:Iheckler9|iHeckler9]][[File:Life.gif|link=User:Iheckler9]] 18:36, 10 September 2013 (CEST)

::::::I also go for the second option. There isn't much we can do. --[[Image:Sparkle.gif]][[User:Haruka|Haruka]][[Image:Sparkle.gif]] 00:30, 11 September 2013 (CEST)

:::::::So, we're keeping Raymesis as Bad Rayman. So, should I or someone else make another Dark Rayman page solely for the Legend's iteration?--[[User:Master|Master]] ([[User talk:Master|talk]]) 21:23, 2 October 2013 (CEST)

:::::::It isn't that hard to figure out. He's just a filler. Raymesis is clearly not Dark Rayman because Dark Rayman is in the game (Also, we clarified that Dark Rayman is named "Dark Rayman" in Origins, and not "DarkRay". This is supported by the fact that he's named "Dark Rayman" in Jungle Run's DLC, and that Polokus calls Rayman "Ray", so it makes sense for him to call Dark Rayman "DarkRay"). HOWEVER.... If Raymesis deserves an article or not... err, that should be decided with more clarity. I think it's okay to simply contain Raymesis as a little portion of Dark Rayman's article, since there's little to no story about him, and he's just an excuse to make Dark Rayman still playable. Opinions?--[[User:Sergiomonty|Sergiomonty]] ([[User talk:Sergiomonty|talk]]) 08:20, 3 October 2013 (CEST)

::::::::I think there is a bigger chance that Bad Rayman was renamed to Raymesis and the Dark Rayman from the Invaded Levels is a new character than Raymesis being just an evil dude and Dark Rayman from the I.L. being Bad Rayman from R1 and RO.It's very unlikely that the developers decided to create a character which looks 99% like Bad Rayman,but is actually another guy.--[[User:TFDs39|TFDs39]]

:::::::::The Dark Rayman from the Invaded levels is definitely the same as the Bad Rayman from the original game: he's not a character, just a spell, chases Rayman copying his moves and kills him on contact. DarkRay from ''Origins'' and Raymesis from ''Legends'' are actual characters, probably the same as they're identical. —[[File:RRRGBAIcon8.png|link=User:Hunchman801]][[File:RRRGBAIcon0.gif|link=User:Hunchman801]][[File:RRRGBAIcon1.png|link=User:Hunchman801]] 14:30, 10 October 2013 (CEST)

::::::::::But,Humch,you are forgetting that Polokus confirmed in RO that Bad Rayman and DarkRay are the same.

::::::::::In my opinion,the easiest way to solve this is to leave Bad Rayman,DarkRay(he was already confirmed) and Raymesis(He looks totally like DarkRay) as the same characters and create a new page for the Dark Rayman from IL.

::::::::::I know there is a good reason why'd you think Bad Rayman and Dark Rayman are the same,but if Dark Rayman does what Bad Rayman did in the past,it doesn't automatically mean they are the same.If we go on the appearance way,I think that would the simplest path to solve this--[[User:TFDs39|TFDs39]]

@@ Line 1: / Line 1: @@
+== Continued nitpicking over the title of the article. ==
+I find it odd that no one seems to have mentioned that "Dark Rayman," as presented in Rayman 1, is a parody of Dark Link from the Zelda series, in both appearance and behavior. This would seem to indicate that Dark Rayman would be the most appropriate title for the unnamed character.
+Reading the talk page, it seems that the reason for titling the article "Bad Rayman" seems to stem from something written in the manual for the British release of ''Rayman Brain Games''. The manual for a semi-obscure edutainment spinoff seems like a bit of an iffy source to me; I can't imagine the writers were paid very much for their trouble, and were likely translating from a French manuscript.
+To note, in the American copy of the game I have, the manual doesn't have any references to "Bad Rayman," though I'd like to point out that the Magician is intermittently and incorrectly referred to as "the Wizard."
+Moreover, the release of Revenge of the Dark is on the somewhat distant horizon, in which the character is going to be explicitly referred to as "Dark Rayman" over the course of the game, as the primary antagonist. Assuming the game ends up being covered by the Wiki, continually referring to the character as "Bad Rayman" would be a bit confusing. --[https://www.youtube.com/channel/UC5nMFC7r5fHTOCD8qfR5pmA RayMedia]
+:First of all, Revenge of the Dark is a fan-game and shouldn't influence any major changes on the wiki. Regarding the idea of Bad/Dark Rayman being based of Dark Link is only speculation. Several similar types of "evil clones" of the main character have appeared in countless games and so on and this doesn't justify a name change in any way.
+:Now, looking at the facts, this is what I've got:
+*[[Rayman Junior]] - According to other users on this page it calls him "Bad Rayman".
+*[[Rayman Designer]] - Named "Bad Rayman" in the game.
+*[[Rayman GBC]] - Simply known as "a dark version" of Rayman, which would suggest "Dark Rayman" as the name.
+*[[Rayman Advance]] - Here he is named "Dark Rayman".
+*[[Rayman DSi]] - Here he is also named "Dark Rayman".
+*[[Rayman Classic]] - An [[List of achievements in Rayman Classic|achievement]] calls him "Bad Rayman".
+:I've heard some people mention him being named "Dark Rayman" in some PS1 and Sega Saturn manuals, but I haven't seen this myself, so I can't confirm that.
+:Overall it seems like "Bad Rayman" is the original name. In other discussions here on the wiki it's been decided to leave it like this and I don't see any reason why not to. There's no clear evidence towards his name being "Dark Rayman". If you however find some concrete evidence that'd be another thing, but right now it's mainly speculation.--[[File:Carrot signature.png|75px|link=User:Carrot-master]] 10:36, 2 February 2017 (UTC)
+==Name==
 In Rayman Advance, during this level, you can clearly see "Watch out for Dark Rayman!" therefore his name is Dark Rayman. I'd like to know one game where he is called Bad Rayman. Just name one. [[User:Sabertooth1000000000|Sabertooth1000000000]] 19:08, 28 June 2009 (UTC)
 :Maths and English with Rayman/Rayman Junior's manual, ok.  --[[Image:RKartHead.gif]]  '''[[User:Staceyw|StaceyW]] &#9836;''' 19:22, 28 June 2009 (UTC)
-:: This question was already answered in the [[Talk:Dark Rayman]] page. Feel free to share your thoughts over there.
+:: This question was already answered in the Talk:Dark Rayman page. Feel free to share your thoughts over there.
 :: [[User:Hunchman801|Hunchman801]] 00:20, 11 April 2009 (UTC)
+:: Sorry for my rudeness. I was 12. [[User:Sabertooth1000000000|Sabertooth1000000000]] ([[User talk:Sabertooth1000000000|talk]]) 07:35, 3 January 2014 (CET)
 December 2009
@@ Line 50: / Line 76: @@
 :Yes, he's referred to as 'Dark Rayman' in some material, starting with Rayman Advance. —[[User:Spiraldoor|Spiraldoor]] [[File:IconSpiralDoor.png|link=User:Spiraldoor]] 13:41, 1 January 2012 (UTC)
-::Exactly. But I think we should be very worried with the real name. --[[Image:Sparkle.gif]][[User:Haruka|Haruka]][[Image:Sparkle.gif]] 13:58, 1 January 2012 (UTC)
+::Exactly. But I think we shouldn't be very worried with the real name. --[[Image:Sparkle.gif]][[User:Haruka|Haruka]][[Image:Sparkle.gif]] 13:58, 1 January 2012 (UTC)
 ::: What should we do now? Call him Dark Rayman again? :s--[[User:Sergiomonty|Sergiomonty]] 18:56, 1 January 2012 (UTC)
 ::::I think the page is fine just the way it is. —[[User:Spiraldoor|Spiraldoor]] [[File:IconSpiralDoor.png|link=User:Spiraldoor]] 19:06, 1 January 2012 (UTC)
+==Raymesis==
+How are we proceeding with the name change and the new Dark Rayman? --[[User:Master|Master]] ([[User talk:Master|talk]]) 18:26, 31 August 2013 (CEST)
+:I defend we keep as Bad Rayman, just like we did with the Antitoons we kept their original name, and only mentioned "also known as Darktoons". We should do the same process for Bad Rayman. --[[Image:Sparkle.gif]][[User:Haruka|Haruka]][[Image:Sparkle.gif]] 12:32, 1 September 2013 (CEST)
+::Very well, I've created a redirect page for Raymesis, and added the Legends character section here, so I guess alls well ends well. --[[User:Master|Master]] ([[User talk:Master|talk]]) 13:55, 1 September 2013 (CEST)
+:Now this is tricky. It seems like there's three evil clones:
+:*Bad Rayman, later referred to as Rayman's Wicked Double and Dark Rayman, who appears in the original game, its Game Boy Color adaptation and [[Rayman Legends]]; he appears to be a spell, copying every of Rayman's moves and causing death upon contact
+:*Dark Rayman, a skin in ''Rayman Arena''
+:*Raymesis, a playable character in ''Rayman Origins'' and ''Rayman Legends''
+:In that regard, we could keep '''Bad Rayman''' as the main article for the first one, use '''Dark Rayman''' as a redirect, then '''Dark Rayman (Rayman Arena)''' would be used instead for the second one, and '''Raymesis''' would be the article for the third one.
+:The only thing that bothers me is how much Raymesis looks like the original Bad Rayman, who is quite different from the one in ''Legends''.
+:What do you guys think? —[[File:RRRGBAIcon8.png|link=User:Hunchman801]][[File:RRRGBAIcon0.gif|link=User:Hunchman801]][[File:RRRGBAIcon1.png|link=User:Hunchman801]] 14:08, 9 September 2013 (CEST)
+::I agree with what you said, I also defended the original use of Bad Rayman. --[[Image:Sparkle.gif]][[User:Haruka|Haruka]][[Image:Sparkle.gif]] 15:53, 9 September 2013 (CEST)
+:::I agree with you too.
+:::But in ''Rayman Origins'', when you pull on the beard of Polokus with the evil clone, he says that his creator is Mr. Dark (“Blame it on Mr. Dark!”) and calls him DarkRay.
+:::So I think that the evil clone from ''Origins'' is also the original Bad Rayman.
+:::Raymesis appears in ''Rayman Legends'', not in ''Origins''. -- [[User:Boomboleros7|Boomboleros7]] 21:09, 9 September 2013 (CEST)
+::::Then this is getting really complicated now. Raymesis from ''Legends'' looks exactly the same as the evil clone in ''Origins'', and just like we considered characters from ''Legends'' to be the same as their identical counterparts from ''Origins'' (e.g. Teensy Queen), the only way to be consistent is to assume that these two clones are the same as well. And thus a different clone from Bad Rayman, which makes sense as the latter is nothing more than a spell, not a character. But then, this becomes inconsistent with Polokus' quote in ''Origins'' which mentions Mr Dark as his creator.
+::::So, unless someone can think of a better explanation, I see only two alternatives:
+::::*We disregard Polokus' quote in ''Origins'' as a joke or as some oddity or incoherence and stick to the separation I mentioned above.
+::::*We accept the fact that there is no way to make sense out of the contradicting information we are provided (not surprising given how much these games are focused on the story line) and keep all the “DarkRay”/Raymesis information in the Bad Rayman article, mentioning the said inconsistencies.
+::::—[[File:RRRGBAIcon8.png|link=User:Hunchman801]][[File:RRRGBAIcon0.gif|link=User:Hunchman801]][[File:RRRGBAIcon1.png|link=User:Hunchman801]] 15:08, 10 September 2013 (CEST)
+:::::I prefer the second option. --[[User:Iheckler9|iHeckler9]][[File:Life.gif|link=User:Iheckler9]] 18:36, 10 September 2013 (CEST)
+::::::I also go for the second option. There isn't much we can do. --[[Image:Sparkle.gif]][[User:Haruka|Haruka]][[Image:Sparkle.gif]] 00:30, 11 September 2013 (CEST)
+:::::::So, we're keeping Raymesis as Bad Rayman. So, should I or someone else make another Dark Rayman page solely for the Legend's iteration?--[[User:Master|Master]] ([[User talk:Master|talk]]) 21:23, 2 October 2013 (CEST)
+:::::::It isn't that hard to figure out. He's just a filler. Raymesis is clearly not Dark Rayman because Dark Rayman is in the game (Also, we clarified that Dark Rayman is named "Dark Rayman" in Origins, and not "DarkRay". This is supported by the fact that he's named "Dark Rayman" in Jungle Run's DLC, and that Polokus calls Rayman "Ray", so it makes sense for him to call Dark Rayman "DarkRay"). HOWEVER.... If Raymesis deserves an article or not... err, that should be decided with more clarity. I think it's okay to simply contain Raymesis as a little portion of Dark Rayman's article, since there's little to no story about him, and he's just an excuse to make Dark Rayman still playable. Opinions?--[[User:Sergiomonty|Sergiomonty]] ([[User talk:Sergiomonty|talk]]) 08:20, 3 October 2013 (CEST)
+::::::::I think there is a bigger chance that Bad Rayman was renamed to Raymesis and the Dark Rayman from the Invaded Levels is a new character than Raymesis being just an evil dude and Dark Rayman from the I.L. being Bad Rayman from R1 and RO.It's very unlikely that the developers decided to create a character which looks 99% like Bad Rayman,but is actually another guy.--[[User:TFDs39|TFDs39]]
+:::::::::The Dark Rayman from the Invaded levels is definitely the same as the Bad Rayman from the original game: he's not a character, just a spell, chases Rayman copying his moves and kills him on contact. DarkRay from ''Origins'' and Raymesis from ''Legends'' are actual characters, probably the same as they're identical. —[[File:RRRGBAIcon8.png|link=User:Hunchman801]][[File:RRRGBAIcon0.gif|link=User:Hunchman801]][[File:RRRGBAIcon1.png|link=User:Hunchman801]] 14:30, 10 October 2013 (CEST)
+::::::::::But,Humch,you are forgetting that Polokus confirmed in RO that Bad Rayman and DarkRay are the same.
+::::::::::In my opinion,the easiest way to solve this is to leave Bad Rayman,DarkRay(he was already confirmed) and Raymesis(He looks totally like DarkRay) as the same characters and create a new page for the Dark Rayman from IL.
+::::::::::I know there is a good reason why'd you think Bad Rayman and Dark Rayman are the same,but if Dark Rayman does what Bad Rayman did in the past,it doesn't automatically mean they are the same.If we go on the appearance way,I think that would the simplest path to solve this--[[User:TFDs39|TFDs39]]