Talk:The Magician: Difference between revisions

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I've always been of the opinion that the Wiki shouldn't be the arbiter of what's "canon," we should take the information we've given and present it at face value. It should be left to the reader to make conclusions if there's no explicit evidence (moreso these days since it seems the Wiki actually does influence official material now - which IMO means we need to be even more careful, god knows we've had enough grief in the past for assuming things like RayLy)

:I've always been of the opinion that the Wiki shouldn't be the arbiter of what's "canon," we should take the information we've been given and present it at face value. It should be left to the reader to make conclusions if there's no explicit evidence (moreso these days since it seems the Wiki actually does influence official material now - which IMO means we need to be even more careful, god knows we've had enough grief in the past for assuming things like RayLy)

With that in mind, if official material never stated that The Magician was being disguised as Mr Dark in that image, then it's not our place to make that assumption. If information that has been given ~~states~~ otherwise, even if it's not in the final game, it should take precedence over what we've assumed, unless there is other material (like perhaps the beta scripts) that could validly abrogate earlier material.

:With that in mind, if the official material we've gotten has never stated that The Magician was being disguised as Mr Dark in that image, then it's not our place to make that assumption. If there is official information that has been given that does state otherwise, even if it's not in the final game, then it should take precedence over what we've assumed (even if we just mention it as a possibility as opposed to objective fact if it's not in the final product). We shouldn't be contradicting official material unless there is other material (like I supposed in this case perhaps the beta scripts) that could validly abrogate earlier material.

So, yeah I'm in agreement, much as I like the idea of it being the Magician in cosplay, I don't remember any material that would state it as such. --[[User:Master|Master]] ([[User talk:Master|talk]]) 20:48, 30 September 2023 (CEST)

:So, yeah I'm in agreement, much as I like the idea of it being the Magician in cosplay, I don't remember any material that would state it as such. --[[User:Master|Master]] ([[User talk:Master|talk]]) 20:48, 30 September 2023 (CEST)

What Master said. It is NOT for us to make assumptions, we must present the information we are given at face value. The PSN avatar is called Mr. Dark? Then it's Mr. Dark. The concept art was called Mr. Dark on the official website? Then it's Mr. Dark, not the Magician, Barack Obama or Donald Trump. End of story. --[[User:＃rubber mark＃|#Rubber mark#]] ([[User talk:＃rubber mark＃|talk]]) 21:10, 30 September 2023 (CEST)

:What Master said. It is NOT for us to make assumptions, we must present the information we are given at face value. The PSN avatar is called Mr. Dark? Then it's Mr. Dark. The concept art was called Mr. Dark on the official website? Then it's Mr. Dark, not the Magician, Barack Obama or Donald Trump. End of story. --[[User:＃rubber mark＃|#Rubber mark#]] ([[User talk:＃rubber mark＃|talk]]) 21:10, 30 September 2023 (CEST)

:Strangesolo is here! About the Magician and Mr Dark, I also think that Mr Dark's design for Origins was reused and altered a bit for Magician (like there is no swirls on Magician's nose, while Mr Dark had them or that he had more longer hair), it could also explain about why's Magician's sprites are still called as "dark" in the files of Origins. And in the official website's description, he was called as Mr Dark and his filename also named as "char-mr-dark", so I think that's Mr Dark and not Magician at all.

:And speaking of that, there is funny thing that in [http://web.archive.org/web/20160224002231/http://raymanorigins.fr.ubi.com/dailybubble/index.php?language=EN&editionNum=9 9th issue] of "The Daily Bubble", Mr Dark (as Teensy) and the Magician appears at the same page.--[[User:Strangesolo|Strangesolo]] ([[User talk:Strangesolo|talk]]) 21:16, 30 September 2023 (CEST)

:It seems pretty clear-cut, there's incorrect info here, and it should be expunged. This seems easier to deal with than the Gonzo thing... [[User:Plumgmk|Plumgmk]] ([[User talk:Plumgmk|talk]]) 22:16, 30 September 2023 (CEST)

:Strangesolo is here again! I have a question: where is this "In promotional material for Rayman Origins, probably to to avoid spoilers, he was called Mr Dark" information even come from? Does anyone have a source of that claim or it's just an assumption? If it was based on the old Origins website info about Mr Dark (him, not Magician), then that's wrong. It also contradicts with thing with 9th issue of "The Daily Bubble", where is Mr Dark and Magician appears on ''the same page''. If they really wanted to avoid spoilers for Rayman Origins, they wouldn't put two ''suspiciously'' similar designs of two different characters on the same page for "The Daily Bubble".--[[User:Strangesolo|Strangesolo]] ([[User talk:Strangesolo|talk]]) 10:26, 1 October 2023 (CEST)

:I'm in agreement: this article is wrongly trying to promote some Magician cosplay theory while the simplest explanation to the information we have is that Mr Dark was planned for inclusion and later replaced with the Magician. '''Both''' articles must be corrected. --[[User:Hoodlumsworld|Hoodlumsworld]] ([[User talk:Hoodlumsworld|talk]]) 15:05, 1 October 2023 (CEST)

::Given the overwhelmingly positive response, I have made the changes. Feel free to bring up any issues here. —[[File:RRRGBAIcon8.png|class=sprite|link=User:Hunchman801]][[File:RRRGBAIcon0.gif|class=sprite|link=User:Hunchman801]][[File:RRRGBAIcon1.png|class=sprite|link=User:Hunchman801]] 21:09, 1 October 2023 (CEST)

== About details of minor changes between Mr. Dark and Magician's Origins designs and reasons for removing them from the page ==

Hello everyone, StrangeSolo is here!

I want to reach a consensus regarding [https://raymanpc.com/wiki/script-en/index.php?title=The_Magician&diff=93468&oldid=93450| latest changes and undos] about details of minor changes between Mr. Dark and Magician's Origins designs that I did brought them up in [https://raymanpc.com/wiki/en/Talk:The_Magician#Mr._Dark_as_a_name|the previous section] here and have been added by Humch, as [[User:Purple bubble|Purple bubble]] have been removing them for no proper explanation and it feels like there is another edit warring is going on now and since Purple bubble didn't create the section for this, so I will do that instead.

Purple bubble, I would gently ask you to explain the reasons behind removing details of minor changes and why is it, in quote, "seems irrelevant to specify, far-fetched". I would also appreciate your answer towards this "As far as we know, it may be a coincidence or a mistake" part, since from what I saw, there is no coincidence or mistake here, but I would still wait for your explanation. --[[User:Strangesolo|Strangesolo]] ([[User talk:Strangesolo|talk]]) 11:46, 10 October 2023 (CEST)

:Thank you StrangeSolo for actively trying to reach consensus; I wish everyone would do the same instead of polluting page history with revert after revert. Anyway, regarding those differences, it's only thanks to your comment that I noticed them, therefore I thought it would be valuable information for others too. Though not of prime importance, I do not find them irrelevant, and it should be left to the reader to decide whether it is "a coincidence or a mistake". —[[File:RRRGBAIcon8.png|class=sprite|link=User:Hunchman801]][[File:RRRGBAIcon0.gif|class=sprite|link=User:Hunchman801]][[File:RRRGBAIcon1.png|class=sprite|link=User:Hunchman801]] 00:52, 11 October 2023 (CEST)

::You're welcome, Humch! And I wish too!

::And I'm agree with you completely. It's pretty valuable information, since those differences aren't really noticeable and very easy to miss, but it gives more understanding of differences between Origins Mr. Dark's and final Magician designs and changes during the development. Even his nose is a bit different, since it looks like a little more sharper than Magician's design in the prototype and in the final game, where is he has rounder nose as well, but I didn't mention that before because of specifics of Origins' art style in general, my apologies.

::And about "a coincidence or a mistake" part, you're right! It should be left to the reader to decide and think about it, not for the editor to do so at all. --[[User:Strangesolo|Strangesolo]] ([[User talk:Strangesolo|talk]]) 13:45, 11 October 2023 (CEST)

:::I would like to report that Purple bubble is AGAIN ignoring discussions and directly reverting other people's contributions. Can something be done about this user? They refuse to follow the rules and keep starting edit wars. I support StrangeSolo's point, by the way. --[[User:Hoodlumsworld|Hoodlumsworld]] ([[User talk:Hoodlumsworld|talk]]) 12:25, 16 October 2023 (CEST)

:With all due respect, but Betilla in the first Rayman Origins trailer, in the manual of the game and even in official merchandise and promotional material is shown to have a different face than in the actual game itself, like freckles and bigger eyes, but I don't think it would be relevant or worth it to specify it in the article about her, and this case is not different at all. You can even see that in The Daily Bubble issues until the release of Origins most of the characters are slightly different than in the actual game. [[User:Purple bubble|Purple bubble]] ([[User talk:Purple bubble|talk]]) 12:02, 17 October 2023 (CEST)

:::I personally think it would be nice to mention that as well!--[[User:Strangesolo|Strangesolo]] ([[User talk:Strangesolo|talk]]) 14:54, 18 October 2023 (CEST)

::Thanks for the answer, Purple bubble, I appreciate that!

::But I personally think that those details should stay here, especially since they're not that noticeable and worth mentioning as well, but also makes difference between final design and those from prototypes/promotional stuff, but it's just my opinion. --[[User:Strangesolo|Strangesolo]] ([[User talk:Strangesolo|talk]]) 14:54, 18 October 2023 (CEST)

:::However, I still want the explanation and answer from you towards this "a coincidence or a mistake" comment you made in previous changes about minor details back then. --[[User:Strangesolo|Strangesolo]] ([[User talk:Strangesolo|talk]]) 15:22, 18 October 2023 (CEST)

::You can read the explanation above, we can't specify every single and little detail of the characters in the game from how they appeared on the first trailers, concept arts, model sheets or the Daily Bubble. The size of the nose and the hair of the Magician as we see it on early sheets and trailers is not relevant enough for such a far-fetched specification, or we should do the same for every other character in Rayman Origins, including the example I brought about Betilla, and frankly I find it quite exaggerated. Also, every character in the game looks different in those very few cutscenes from other perspectives. [[User:Purple bubble|Purple bubble]] ([[User talk:Purple bubble|talk]]) 17:01, 18 October 2023 (CEST)

:::With all my respect, I reread your post many times, but I didn't any explanation for that quote I have mentioned previously.

:::I wanted to point out that we didn't talk about size of his nose (we talked about the swirls, which were removed later) or the characters looking different, in quote, "in those very few cutscenes from other perspectives", especially when those are unique sprite works with their own sprite sheets that are drawn differently (like the Teensy design of Mr. Dark for Origins, before it was reused for Magician with changes I mentioned in previous topic above and then compare it with Magician's appearance), same goes for Betilla, as both their sprites were basically redrawn few times, maybe even more like that happened with Magician, so I still think that's it worth to mention those changes and I personally don't find that they're far-stretched. --[[User:Strangesolo|Strangesolo]] ([[User talk:Strangesolo|talk]]) 20:05, 18 October 2023 (CEST)

== Proposition to add trivia ==

Is it ok if I wrote that the Magician "incorporates elements from the previous main antagonists" or "has elements in common with the previous main antagonists"? [[User:Purple bubble|Purple bubble]] ([[User talk:Purple bubble|talk]]) 18:20, 20 April 2024 (CEST)

== Another edit war on Magician page?? ==

Hello everyone, StrangeSolo is here once again!

It seems like that there is ''another'' edit war is going on again, on Magician's page too. It feels like this page got cursed or something, because I have seen edit wars going on here lately.

It's again about Purple bubble and the edits they have made before on April, but got reverted, and there is the [https://raymanpc.com/wiki/script-en/index.php?title=The%20Magician&type=revision&diff=96605&oldid=96571 most latest changes from them] from now. I'm genuinely not sure why is it keep going and why is in Magician's page too, I wish there was a way to solve this edit war on this page. --[[User:Strangesolo|Strangesolo]] ([[User talk:Strangesolo|talk]]) 22:23, 22 April 2024 (CEST)

:There's no edit war, I and [[Hunchman801]] were just peacefully and friendly trying to find a way to add a specific edit in an acceptable way and I even asked here in the talk page an opinion about it. [[User:Purple bubble|Purple bubble]] ([[User talk:Purple bubble|talk]]) 01:15, 23 April 2024 (CEST)

:Please, don't create problems where there aren't if you don't know how an edit war works, we didn't even edit the article in these few days. [[User:Purple bubble|Purple bubble]] ([[User talk:Purple bubble|talk]]) 01:19, 23 April 2024 (CEST)

::Ah, I see! Then I apologise, I must have misunderstood that.

::And sorry, didn't want to create the trouble here, was genuinely confused about those changes in this page. --[[User:Strangesolo|Strangesolo]] ([[User talk:Strangesolo|talk]]) 02:12, 23 April 2024 (CEST)

:::Purple bubble was indeed edit warring by repeatedly reverting changes instead of using talk pages, and just got banned for doing it on yet another article. —[[File:RRRGBAIcon8.png|class=sprite|link=User:Hunchman801]][[File:RRRGBAIcon0.gif|class=sprite|link=User:Hunchman801]][[File:RRRGBAIcon1.png|class=sprite|link=User:Hunchman801]] 20:06, 23 April 2024 (CEST)

== Split ==

Given the arguments presented in [https://raymanpc.com/forum/viewtopic.php?t=75447 this topic], and the consensus that appears to have emerged, I would like to suggest a split of this article into one for the Rayman 1 Magician and one for the Rayman Origins Magician, given the lack of compelling evidence that they are indeed the same character. The wiki would adopt the position that the relationship between the two is unclear, without excluding any possibilities. Any thoughts? —[[File:RRRGBAIcon8.png|class=sprite|link=User:Hunchman801]][[File:RRRGBAIcon0.gif|class=sprite|link=User:Hunchman801]][[File:RRRGBAIcon1.png|class=sprite|link=User:Hunchman801]] 17:59, 2 October 2024 (CEST)

:Hmm, I personally wouldn't split the article to avoid confusion between two Magicians as it's fine as it is, as least in my opinion, but it would be nice to clarify about their relationship between each other is unclear. --[[User:Strangesolo|Strangesolo]] ([[User talk:Strangesolo|talk]]) 09:53, 3 October 2024 (CEST)

::If we cannot establish for sure that they are one and the same, then I believe we should split the article, with a disambiguation disclaimer at the top and a paragraph at the end of the article headers to explain that the relationship is unclear. It would be less confusing to me, and more consistent with [[Dark Rayman|Rayman's evil clones]]. --[[User:Hoodlumsworld|Hoodlumsworld]] ([[User talk:Hoodlumsworld|talk]]) 21:27, 3 October 2024 (CEST)

:::I think that for now the magician page should not be split because there may be proof that they are different characters but that information is taken from an Discarded script, plus many people think that the magician of r1 and ro are the same so splitting the magian page would give a lot of confusion then, yes, it may be that originally in Origins, Ales Mansay would be an impostor and would be different from the Magician, but I think if they release a new Rayman game, possibly Ales Mansay and Magician would be the same character (or maybe not, since it seems like every game changes some of the canon) but whatever the original intent of The Magician in Origins was, that will have been lost at this point. --[[User:Alexlimitedgames|Alexlimitedgames]] ([[User talk:Alexlimitedgames|talk]]) 6:29, 4 October 2024 (CEST)

::::RayWiki's purpose isn't necessarily to reinforce popular interpretation (take a look at the mess that is Bad Rayman and Raymesis), but to present what the games have shown as-is. If something isn't definitively stated and there is sufficient evidence for the matter to be considered ambiguous then the Wiki should portray the matter as being ambiguous, we're not the arbiter of canon nor should we be trying to dictate common belief as fact if it isn't explicitly stated as such. I agree that the beta script should not have any bearing on what we consider to be "canonical fact," but we should still relay possible intent, but with the caveat that this wasn't shown in the end and this shouldn't be considered as the actual circumstance and situation as far as the presented story is told. To that end, if there isn't any explicit link between the Magician as he is in Rayman 1, and how he is in the UbiArt era, and there's enough reasonable doubt to them being the same, then we should split the article.

::::From what's been discussed in the forums, my takeaway is that there's enough doubt in that it's never stated outright that the Magician in Rayman Origins is the same as the Magician from Rayman 1, as was done for other returning characters. While the script isn't canonical it does imply a sense that the Magician wasn't intended to be the same, now we can't take that as canonical fact, but we can at least gleam some authorial intent. Combine that with no explicit link mentioned by the authors, and I think while there's no canonical evidence for a link or no link either ways, there is enough to justify us keeping them as separate entities until a future game or future information proves otherwise. Or put simply, we can't definitively prove they are the same, but we can't prove that they are different either, and the safer option is probably to assume they're different but mention the possibility of being the same, but explain the ambiguity. --[[User:Master|Master]] ([[User talk:Master|talk]]) 18:23, 4 October 2024 (CEST)

:::::I certainly believe that the two characters are different, and I don’t know why there is an ongoing belief that there are 2 separate characters.

:::::Overall, I think there should be a split, or at least an acknowledgement that they are different on the wiki. --[[User:Greengoop|Greengoop]] ([[User talk:Greengoop|talk]])

::::::I thought they were the same because the wiki said so, and now I realize there is no proof of this? There should be a split if we don't want RayWiki to spread more confusion. [[User:Niknud2005|Niknud2005]] ([[User talk:Niknud2005|talk]]) 20:21, 7 October 2024 (CEST)

:::::::'''Split.''' No proof has been established that they are the same character and the current state of the article reflects overinterpretation on the part of the authors who originally wrote about the Rayman Origins Magician in it. --[[User:Belagynx|Belagynx]] ([[User talk:Belagynx|talk]]) 12:26, 13 October 2024 (CEST)

::::::::It's been almost a month now, and across both the forum and the wiki, I'm counting:

:::::::: * 8 people in support of a split (Belagynx, EdgeRabbit, Greengoop, hoodlumsworld, Hunchman801, Master, Niknud2005 and Sabertooth)

:::::::: * 2 more who believe that the characters are separate but did not comment on the split (ArcaneDarkling and PluMGMK)

:::::::: * 2 against the split, but who did not claim that the characters are the same nor provided evidence for it (alexlimitedgames and StrangeSolo)

:::::::: What's more, no new opinion has been voiced in almost 10 days. As a consequence, we'll be moving forward with the split, effective immediately. —[[File:RRRGBAIcon8.png|class=sprite|link=User:Hunchman801]][[File:RRRGBAIcon0.gif|class=sprite|link=User:Hunchman801]][[File:RRRGBAIcon1.png|class=sprite|link=User:Hunchman801]] 17:43, 27 October 2024 (CET)

:::::::::While I am personally indifferent to the split, there is one thing that I noticed that I thought to put here. In [[Rayman in the Phantom Show]], a prop of the Rayman 1 Magician’s wand appears on top of a replica of the Rayman Origins Magician's hat. Now I don't see why the Origins Magician would have a wand, as according to the scrapped script he stunk at magic, but the fact that both Magicians (in the case that they are not one-and-the-same) were referenced through these props feels a bit odd to me. If they were referencing the Rayman 1 Magician, wouldn't they have used a replica of that hat? I might just be overthinking this, but I think it's worth putting here anyway. [[User:Raygamer99|Raygamer99]] ([[User talk:Raygamer99|talk]]) 15:35, 28 October 2024 (CET)

:::::::::: It's definitely been on my mind. This could imply they '''could''' be the same. However, I should point out that they're props and that it isn't 1 to 1 with the hat as seen in Origins (you can see it has a little ribbon), the same applies to the first game's wand (although these are just small details). In any case, while something we COULD consider, there seem to be too many interpretations and no way of knowing what is "currently" intended. Did they redesign them? Are they the same? It wasn't thought out? I find it unlikely we will ever find a concrete answer.--[[User:Arcanedarkling|Arcanedarkling]] ([[User talk:Arcanedarkling|talk]]) 20:46, 5 November 2024 (UTC)

::::::::::: One possibility that I find very likely is that, with the Dark Teensy impersonating Rayman 1's Magician, the difference between the two hats is purely stylistic, a case of a small redesign. After all, in order to pass himself off as the real Magician, he might as well use the same hat. Therefore, the inclusion of this hat in the DLC merely reflects this change in style and is meaningless with regards to the characters' respective identities. Of course, this is just speculation, nothing that would belong in the article itself. —[[File:RRRGBAIcon8.png|class=sprite|link=User:Hunchman801]][[File:RRRGBAIcon0.gif|class=sprite|link=User:Hunchman801]][[File:RRRGBAIcon1.png|class=sprite|link=User:Hunchman801]] 13:10, 6 November 2024 (UTC)

@@ Line 71: / Line 71: @@
 What do you guys think about this? —[[File:RRRGBAIcon8.png|class=sprite|link=User:Hunchman801]][[File:RRRGBAIcon0.gif|class=sprite|link=User:Hunchman801]][[File:RRRGBAIcon1.png|class=sprite|link=User:Hunchman801]] 20:29, 30 September 2023 (CEST)
-I've always been of the opinion that the Wiki shouldn't be the arbiter of what's "canon," we should take the information we've given and present it at face value. It should be left to the reader to make conclusions if there's no explicit evidence (moreso these days since it seems the Wiki actually does influence official material now - which IMO means we need to be even more careful, god knows we've had enough grief in the past for assuming things like RayLy)
+:I've always been of the opinion that the Wiki shouldn't be the arbiter of what's "canon," we should take the information we've been given and present it at face value. It should be left to the reader to make conclusions if there's no explicit evidence (moreso these days since it seems the Wiki actually does influence official material now - which IMO means we need to be even more careful, god knows we've had enough grief in the past for assuming things like RayLy)
-With that in mind, if official material never stated that The Magician was being disguised as Mr Dark in that image, then it's not our place to make that assumption. If information that has been given states otherwise, even if it's not in the final game, it should take precedence over what we've assumed, unless there is other material (like perhaps the beta scripts) that could validly abrogate earlier material.
+:With that in mind, if the official material we've gotten has never stated that The Magician was being disguised as Mr Dark in that image, then it's not our place to make that assumption. If there is official information that has been given that does state otherwise, even if it's not in the final game, then it should take precedence over what we've assumed (even if we just mention it as a possibility as opposed to objective fact if it's not in the final product). We shouldn't be contradicting official material unless there is other material (like I supposed in this case perhaps the beta scripts) that could validly abrogate earlier material.
-So, yeah I'm in agreement, much as I like the idea of it being the Magician in cosplay, I don't remember any material that would state it as such. --[[User:Master|Master]] ([[User talk:Master|talk]]) 20:48, 30 September 2023 (CEST)
+:So, yeah I'm in agreement, much as I like the idea of it being the Magician in cosplay, I don't remember any material that would state it as such. --[[User:Master|Master]] ([[User talk:Master|talk]]) 20:48, 30 September 2023 (CEST)
-What Master said. It is NOT for us to make assumptions, we must present the information we are given at face value. The PSN avatar is called Mr. Dark? Then it's Mr. Dark. The concept art was called Mr. Dark on the official website? Then it's Mr. Dark, not the Magician, Barack Obama or Donald Trump. End of story. --[[User:＃rubber mark＃|#Rubber mark#]] ([[User talk:＃rubber mark＃|talk]]) 21:10, 30 September 2023 (CEST)
+:What Master said. It is NOT for us to make assumptions, we must present the information we are given at face value. The PSN avatar is called Mr. Dark? Then it's Mr. Dark. The concept art was called Mr. Dark on the official website? Then it's Mr. Dark, not the Magician, Barack Obama or Donald Trump. End of story. --[[User:＃rubber mark＃|#Rubber mark#]] ([[User talk:＃rubber mark＃|talk]]) 21:10, 30 September 2023 (CEST)
+:Strangesolo is here! About the Magician and Mr Dark, I also think that Mr Dark's design for Origins was reused and altered a bit for Magician (like there is no swirls on Magician's nose, while Mr Dark had them or that he had more longer hair), it could also explain about why's Magician's sprites are still called as "dark" in the files of Origins. And in the official website's description, he was called as Mr Dark and his filename also named as "char-mr-dark", so I think that's Mr Dark and not Magician at all.
+:And speaking of that, there is funny thing that in [http://web.archive.org/web/20160224002231/http://raymanorigins.fr.ubi.com/dailybubble/index.php?language=EN&editionNum=9 9th issue] of "The Daily Bubble", Mr Dark (as Teensy) and the Magician appears at the same page.--[[User:Strangesolo|Strangesolo]] ([[User talk:Strangesolo|talk]]) 21:16, 30 September 2023 (CEST)
+:It seems pretty clear-cut, there's incorrect info here, and it should be expunged. This seems easier to deal with than the Gonzo thing... [[User:Plumgmk|Plumgmk]] ([[User talk:Plumgmk|talk]]) 22:16, 30 September 2023 (CEST)
+:Strangesolo is here again! I have a question: where is this "In promotional material for Rayman Origins, probably to to avoid spoilers, he was called Mr Dark" information  even come from? Does anyone have a source of that claim or it's just an assumption? If it was based on the old Origins website info about Mr Dark (him, not Magician), then that's wrong. It also contradicts with thing with 9th issue of "The Daily Bubble", where is Mr Dark and Magician appears on ''the same page''. If they really wanted to avoid spoilers for Rayman Origins, they wouldn't put two ''suspiciously'' similar designs of two different characters on the same page for "The Daily Bubble".--[[User:Strangesolo|Strangesolo]] ([[User talk:Strangesolo|talk]]) 10:26, 1 October 2023 (CEST)
+:I'm in agreement: this article is wrongly trying to promote some Magician cosplay theory while the simplest explanation to the information we have is that Mr Dark was planned for inclusion and later replaced with the Magician. '''Both''' articles must be corrected. --[[User:Hoodlumsworld|Hoodlumsworld]] ([[User talk:Hoodlumsworld|talk]]) 15:05, 1 October 2023 (CEST)
+::Given the overwhelmingly positive response, I have made the changes. Feel free to bring up any issues here. —[[File:RRRGBAIcon8.png|class=sprite|link=User:Hunchman801]][[File:RRRGBAIcon0.gif|class=sprite|link=User:Hunchman801]][[File:RRRGBAIcon1.png|class=sprite|link=User:Hunchman801]] 21:09, 1 October 2023 (CEST)
+== About details of minor changes between Mr. Dark and Magician's Origins designs and reasons for removing them from the page ==
+Hello everyone, StrangeSolo is here!
+I want to reach a consensus regarding [https://raymanpc.com/wiki/script-en/index.php?title=The_Magician&diff=93468&oldid=93450| latest changes and undos] about details of minor changes between Mr. Dark and Magician's Origins designs that I did brought them up in [https://raymanpc.com/wiki/en/Talk:The_Magician#Mr._Dark_as_a_name|the previous section] here and have been added by Humch, as [[User:Purple bubble|Purple bubble]] have been removing them for no proper explanation and it feels like there is another edit warring is going on now and since Purple bubble didn't create the section for this, so I will do that instead.
+Purple bubble, I would gently ask you to explain the reasons behind removing details of minor changes and why is it, in quote, "seems irrelevant to specify, far-fetched". I would also appreciate your answer towards this "As far as we know, it may be a coincidence or a mistake" part, since from what I saw, there is no coincidence or mistake here, but I would still wait for your explanation. --[[User:Strangesolo|Strangesolo]] ([[User talk:Strangesolo|talk]]) 11:46, 10 October 2023 (CEST)
+:Thank you StrangeSolo for actively trying to reach consensus; I wish everyone would do the same instead of polluting page history with revert after revert. Anyway, regarding those differences, it's only thanks to your comment that I noticed them, therefore I thought it would be valuable information for others too. Though not of prime importance, I do not find them irrelevant, and it should be left to the reader to decide whether it is "a coincidence or a mistake". —[[File:RRRGBAIcon8.png|class=sprite|link=User:Hunchman801]][[File:RRRGBAIcon0.gif|class=sprite|link=User:Hunchman801]][[File:RRRGBAIcon1.png|class=sprite|link=User:Hunchman801]] 00:52, 11 October 2023 (CEST)
+::You're welcome, Humch! And I wish too!
+::And I'm agree with you completely. It's pretty valuable information, since those differences aren't really noticeable and very easy to miss, but it gives more understanding of differences between Origins Mr. Dark's and final Magician designs and changes during the development. Even his nose is a bit different, since it looks like a little more sharper than Magician's design in the prototype and in the final game, where is he has rounder nose as well, but I didn't mention that before because of specifics of Origins' art style in general, my apologies.
+::And about "a coincidence or a mistake" part, you're right! It should be left to the reader to decide and think about it, not for the editor to do so at all. --[[User:Strangesolo|Strangesolo]] ([[User talk:Strangesolo|talk]]) 13:45, 11 October 2023 (CEST)
+:::I would like to report that Purple bubble is AGAIN ignoring discussions and directly reverting other people's contributions. Can something be done about this user? They refuse to follow the rules and keep starting edit wars. I support StrangeSolo's point, by the way. --[[User:Hoodlumsworld|Hoodlumsworld]] ([[User talk:Hoodlumsworld|talk]]) 12:25, 16 October 2023 (CEST)
+:With all due respect, but Betilla in the first Rayman Origins trailer, in the manual of the game and even in official merchandise and promotional material is shown to have a different face than in the actual game itself, like freckles and bigger eyes, but I don't think it would be relevant or worth it to specify it in the article about her, and this case is not different at all. You can even see that in The Daily Bubble issues until the release of Origins most of the characters are slightly different than in the actual game. [[User:Purple bubble|Purple bubble]] ([[User talk:Purple bubble|talk]]) 12:02, 17 October 2023 (CEST)
+::Would everyone be happy if we mentioned those details for Betilla too? —[[File:RRRGBAIcon8.png|class=sprite|link=User:Hunchman801]][[File:RRRGBAIcon0.gif|class=sprite|link=User:Hunchman801]][[File:RRRGBAIcon1.png|class=sprite|link=User:Hunchman801]] 21:13, 17 October 2023 (CEST)
+:::I personally think it would be nice to mention that as well!--[[User:Strangesolo|Strangesolo]] ([[User talk:Strangesolo|talk]]) 14:54, 18 October 2023 (CEST)
+::Thanks for the answer, Purple bubble, I appreciate that!
+::But I personally think that those details should stay here, especially since they're not that noticeable and worth mentioning as well, but also makes difference between final design and those from prototypes/promotional stuff, but it's just my opinion. --[[User:Strangesolo|Strangesolo]] ([[User talk:Strangesolo|talk]]) 14:54, 18 October 2023 (CEST)
+:::However, I still want the explanation and answer from you towards this "a coincidence or a mistake" comment you made in previous changes about minor details back then. --[[User:Strangesolo|Strangesolo]] ([[User talk:Strangesolo|talk]]) 15:22, 18 October 2023 (CEST)
+::You can read the explanation above, we can't specify every single and little detail of the characters in the game from how they appeared on the first trailers, concept arts, model sheets or the Daily Bubble. The size of the nose and the hair of the Magician as we see it on early sheets and trailers is not relevant enough for such a far-fetched specification, or we should do the same for every other character in Rayman Origins, including the example I brought about Betilla, and frankly I find it quite exaggerated. Also, every character in the game looks different in those very few cutscenes from other perspectives. [[User:Purple bubble|Purple bubble]] ([[User talk:Purple bubble|talk]]) 17:01, 18 October 2023 (CEST)
+:::With all my respect, I reread your post many times, but I didn't any explanation for that quote I have mentioned previously.
+:::I wanted to point out that we didn't talk about size of his nose (we talked about the swirls, which were removed later) or the characters looking different, in quote, "in those very few cutscenes from other perspectives", especially when those are unique sprite works with their own sprite sheets that are drawn differently (like the Teensy design of Mr. Dark for Origins, before it was reused for Magician with changes I mentioned in previous topic above and then compare it with Magician's appearance), same goes for Betilla, as both their sprites were basically redrawn few times, maybe even more like that happened with Magician, so I still think that's it worth to mention those changes and I personally don't find that they're far-stretched. --[[User:Strangesolo|Strangesolo]] ([[User talk:Strangesolo|talk]]) 20:05, 18 October 2023 (CEST)
+== Proposition to add trivia ==
+Is it ok if I wrote that the Magician "incorporates elements from the previous main antagonists" or "has elements in common with the previous main antagonists"? [[User:Purple bubble|Purple bubble]] ([[User talk:Purple bubble|talk]]) 18:20, 20 April 2024 (CEST)
+== Another edit war on Magician page?? ==
+Hello everyone, StrangeSolo is here once again!
+It seems like that there is ''another'' edit war is going on again, on Magician's page too. It feels like this page got cursed or something, because I have seen edit wars going on here lately.
+It's again about Purple bubble and the edits they have made before on April, but got reverted, and there is the [https://raymanpc.com/wiki/script-en/index.php?title=The%20Magician&type=revision&diff=96605&oldid=96571 most latest changes from them] from now. I'm genuinely not sure why is it keep going and why is in Magician's page too, I wish there was a way to solve this edit war on this page. --[[User:Strangesolo|Strangesolo]] ([[User talk:Strangesolo|talk]]) 22:23, 22 April 2024 (CEST)
+:There's no edit war, I and [[Hunchman801]] were just peacefully and friendly trying to find a way to add a specific edit in an acceptable way and I even asked here in the talk page an opinion about it.  [[User:Purple bubble|Purple bubble]] ([[User talk:Purple bubble|talk]]) 01:15, 23 April 2024 (CEST)
+:Please, don't create problems where there aren't if you don't know how an edit war works, we didn't even edit the article in these few days. [[User:Purple bubble|Purple bubble]] ([[User talk:Purple bubble|talk]]) 01:19, 23 April 2024 (CEST)
+::Ah, I see! Then I apologise, I must have misunderstood that.
+::And sorry, didn't want to create the trouble here, was genuinely confused about those changes in this page. --[[User:Strangesolo|Strangesolo]] ([[User talk:Strangesolo|talk]]) 02:12, 23 April 2024 (CEST)
+:::Purple bubble was indeed edit warring by repeatedly reverting changes instead of using talk pages, and just got banned for doing it on yet another article. —[[File:RRRGBAIcon8.png|class=sprite|link=User:Hunchman801]][[File:RRRGBAIcon0.gif|class=sprite|link=User:Hunchman801]][[File:RRRGBAIcon1.png|class=sprite|link=User:Hunchman801]] 20:06, 23 April 2024 (CEST)
+== Split ==
+Given the arguments presented in [https://raymanpc.com/forum/viewtopic.php?t=75447 this topic], and the consensus that appears to have emerged, I would like to suggest a split of this article into one for the Rayman 1 Magician and one for the Rayman Origins Magician, given the lack of compelling evidence that they are indeed the same character. The wiki would adopt the position that the relationship between the two is unclear, without excluding any possibilities. Any thoughts? —[[File:RRRGBAIcon8.png|class=sprite|link=User:Hunchman801]][[File:RRRGBAIcon0.gif|class=sprite|link=User:Hunchman801]][[File:RRRGBAIcon1.png|class=sprite|link=User:Hunchman801]] 17:59, 2 October 2024 (CEST)
+:Hmm, I personally wouldn't split the article to avoid confusion between two Magicians as it's fine as it is, as least in my opinion, but it would be nice to clarify about their relationship between each other is unclear. --[[User:Strangesolo|Strangesolo]] ([[User talk:Strangesolo|talk]]) 09:53, 3 October 2024 (CEST)
+::If we cannot establish for sure that they are one and the same, then I believe we should split the article, with a disambiguation disclaimer at the top and a paragraph at the end of the article headers to explain that the relationship is unclear. It would be less confusing to me, and more consistent with [[Dark Rayman|Rayman's evil clones]]. --[[User:Hoodlumsworld|Hoodlumsworld]] ([[User talk:Hoodlumsworld|talk]]) 21:27, 3 October 2024 (CEST)
+:::I think that for now the magician page should not be split because there may be proof that they are different characters but that information is taken from an Discarded script, plus many people think that the magician of r1 and ro are the same so splitting the magian page would give a lot of confusion then, yes, it may be that originally in Origins, Ales Mansay would be an impostor and would be different from the Magician, but I think if they release a new Rayman game, possibly Ales Mansay and Magician would be the same character (or maybe not, since it seems like every game changes some of the canon) but whatever the original intent of The Magician in Origins was, that will have been lost at this point. --[[User:Alexlimitedgames|Alexlimitedgames]] ([[User talk:Alexlimitedgames|talk]]) 6:29, 4 October 2024 (CEST)
+::::RayWiki's purpose isn't necessarily to reinforce popular interpretation (take a look at the mess that is Bad Rayman and Raymesis), but to present what the games have shown as-is. If something isn't definitively stated and there is sufficient evidence for the matter to be considered ambiguous then the Wiki should portray the matter as being ambiguous, we're not the arbiter of canon nor should we be trying to dictate common belief as fact if it isn't explicitly stated as such. I agree that the beta script should not have any bearing on what we consider to be "canonical fact," but we should still relay possible intent, but with the caveat that this wasn't shown in the end and this shouldn't be considered as the actual circumstance and situation as far as the presented story is told. To that end, if there isn't any explicit link between the Magician as he is in Rayman 1, and how he is in the UbiArt era, and there's enough reasonable doubt to them being the same, then we should split the article.
+::::From what's been discussed in the forums, my takeaway is that there's enough doubt in that it's never stated outright that the Magician in Rayman Origins is the same as the Magician from Rayman 1, as was done for other returning characters. While the script isn't canonical it does imply a sense that the Magician wasn't intended to be the same, now we can't take that as canonical fact, but we can at least gleam some authorial intent. Combine that with no explicit link mentioned by the authors, and I think while there's no canonical evidence for a link or no link either ways, there is enough to justify us keeping them as separate entities until a future game or future information proves otherwise. Or put simply, we can't definitively prove they are the same, but we can't prove that they are different either, and the safer option is probably to assume they're different but mention the possibility of being the same, but explain the ambiguity. --[[User:Master|Master]] ([[User talk:Master|talk]]) 18:23, 4 October 2024 (CEST)
+:::::I certainly believe that the two characters are different, and I don’t know why there is an ongoing belief that there are 2 separate characters.
+:::::Overall, I think there should be a split, or at least an acknowledgement that they are different on the wiki. --[[User:Greengoop|Greengoop]] ([[User talk:Greengoop|talk]])
+::::::I thought they were the same because the wiki said so, and now I realize there is no proof of this? There should be a split if we don't want RayWiki to spread more confusion. [[User:Niknud2005|Niknud2005]] ([[User talk:Niknud2005|talk]]) 20:21, 7 October 2024 (CEST)
+:::::::'''Split.''' No proof has been established that they are the same character and the current state of the article reflects overinterpretation on the part of the authors who originally wrote about the Rayman Origins Magician in it. --[[User:Belagynx|Belagynx]] ([[User talk:Belagynx|talk]]) 12:26, 13 October 2024 (CEST)
+::::::::It's been almost a month now, and across both the forum and the wiki, I'm counting:
+:::::::: * 8 people in support of a split (Belagynx, EdgeRabbit, Greengoop, hoodlumsworld, Hunchman801, Master, Niknud2005 and Sabertooth)
+:::::::: * 2 more who believe that the characters are separate but did not comment on the split (ArcaneDarkling and PluMGMK)
+:::::::: * 2 against the split, but who did not claim that the characters are the same nor provided evidence for it (alexlimitedgames and StrangeSolo)
+:::::::: What's more, no new opinion has been voiced in almost 10 days. As a consequence, we'll be moving forward with the split, effective immediately. —[[File:RRRGBAIcon8.png|class=sprite|link=User:Hunchman801]][[File:RRRGBAIcon0.gif|class=sprite|link=User:Hunchman801]][[File:RRRGBAIcon1.png|class=sprite|link=User:Hunchman801]] 17:43, 27 October 2024 (CET)
+:::::::::While I am personally indifferent to the split, there is one thing that I noticed that I thought to put here. In [[Rayman in the Phantom Show]], a prop of the Rayman 1 Magician’s wand appears on top of a replica of the Rayman Origins Magician's hat. Now I don't see why the Origins Magician would have a wand, as according to the scrapped script he stunk at magic, but the fact that both Magicians (in the case that they are not one-and-the-same) were referenced through these props feels a bit odd to me. If they were referencing the Rayman 1 Magician, wouldn't they have used a replica of that hat? I might just be overthinking this, but I think it's worth putting here anyway. [[User:Raygamer99|Raygamer99]] ([[User talk:Raygamer99|talk]]) 15:35, 28 October 2024 (CET)
+:::::::::: It's definitely been on my mind. This could imply they '''could''' be the same. However, I should point out that they're props and that it isn't 1 to 1 with the hat as seen in Origins (you can see it has a little ribbon), the same applies to the first game's wand (although these are just small details). In any case, while something we COULD consider, there seem to be too many interpretations and no way of knowing what is "currently" intended. Did they redesign them? Are they the same? It wasn't thought out? I find it unlikely we will ever find a concrete answer.--[[User:Arcanedarkling|Arcanedarkling]] ([[User talk:Arcanedarkling|talk]]) 20:46, 5 November 2024 (UTC)
+::::::::::: One possibility that I find very likely is that, with the Dark Teensy impersonating Rayman 1's Magician, the difference between the two hats is purely stylistic, a case of a small redesign. After all, in order to pass himself off as the real Magician, he might as well use the same hat. Therefore, the inclusion of this hat in the DLC merely reflects this change in style and is meaningless with regards to the characters' respective identities. Of course, this is just speculation, nothing that would belong in the article itself.  —[[File:RRRGBAIcon8.png|class=sprite|link=User:Hunchman801]][[File:RRRGBAIcon0.gif|class=sprite|link=User:Hunchman801]][[File:RRRGBAIcon1.png|class=sprite|link=User:Hunchman801]] 13:10, 6 November 2024 (UTC)